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Before I had thought “sabbe sankhara dukkha” was a very deep verse with many implications, including bad kamma vipaka, rebirth process and the apayas. But now it seems it just means the effort/striving needed for thinking a thought is suffering.
Mano sankhara are reactions to sense inputs. They don’t last long, they are lightning quick. They are automatic. There is no effort or striving involved.
I could see how mano sankhara would be suffering if let’s say X were to see X’s enemy, and X’s reaction or mano sankhara to that sense input was one of anger. So that means there was dosa in X’s mano sankhara, and thus agitated X’s mind(which would be the suffering).
But what about let’s say an Arahant saw a handicap person, and the Arahant’s reaction/mano sankhara was of compassion, there was karuna in the mano sankhara. It was only a reaction, the Arahant did not even do anything for the handicap person.
I’m curious to know how something as brief as a good or neutral mano sankhara which does not involve sankappa, speech, bodily actions or any effort/striving can be suffering.
I’m assuming seeing the suffering in mano sankhara is something only an Arahant would be able to understand.
But it would still be good to know at least intellectually.
Since sankhara are thoughts and not the speech/bodily action itself, I was having difficulty understanding how only thoughts(merely thinking things) could be suffering. From your responses it is the EFFORT/STRIVING to think those thoughts that is the suffering.
Lal wrote:
“Furthermore, those thoughts also were not good thoughts and made X’s mind very agitated, which is also a part of the suffering at the moment of doing the bad deed.”Yes, I could see how apunnabhisankhara(simply thinking an immoral thought) can be suffering. In apunnabhisankhara there is asobhana cetasika. And asobhana cetasika stresses/heats up the mind. Whereas sobhana cetasika cools down the mind.
But sobhana cetasika arise in punnabhisankhara.
1) If sobhana cetasika cools down the mind, then can punnabhisankhara be considered as stressful?
2) I’m assuming it is the EFFORT needed to THINK good/moral thoughts that is the suffering when it comes to punnabhisankhara as well?
Sabbe sankhara dukkha=all sankhara ARE suffering.
So does that mean bad kamma vipaka and rebirths in the apayas is NOT implied in the verse “all sankhara are suffering” then?
I want to emphasize that the verse “sabbe sankhara dukkha” made more sense to me when I saw it as “all sankhara LEAD to suffering” rather than “all sankhara ARE suffering.” When you said it is “all sankhara ARE suffering” I went back to square one and became very confused and more questions arose. Perhaps others can help me understand as well.
Bad kamma vipaka is a major reason for our suffering in this world. But if the verse means “all sankhara ARE suffering”, then that means bad kamma vipaka is not implied in that verse. Because bad kamma vipaka is not sankhara but something sankhara can LEAD to.
Lal wrote:
“The verse that you quoted DOES NOT say that “sabbe sankhara LEAD TO dukkha.”
It just says, “sabbe sankhara dukkha” OR “All sankhara are suffering.”For a long time I thought the two phrases “sabbe sankhara annica” and “sabbe sankhara dukkha” meant “everything sankhara can LEAD to is anicca and causes suffering.” Not that “all sankhara ARE anicca” or “all sankhara ARE suffering.”
That makes a big difference(the sankhara itself vs what the sankhara can lead to). And changes a lot of things.
For one, if it is all sankhara are suffering then my first analysis would appear to be wrong. Because I deduced apunnabhisankhara and punnabhisankhara to be suffering in terms of what each can LEAD to rather than apunnabisankhara/punnabhisankhara as BEING suffering.
In this site sankhara has been defined as THOUGHTS, even kaya sankhara. For example vaci sankhara is not the speech itself but the THOUGHTS that lead to speech. Kaya sankhara is not the bodily action itself but the THOUGHTS that lead to the bodily action.
So in “sabbe sankhara anicca” and “sabbe sankhara dukkha”, the “sankhara” does not include speech itself or bodily action itself? It just means thoughts? As in “all THOUGHTS are anicca” or “all THOUGHTS are suffering?”
Thanks for the answers Lal.
How about the sankhara that is involved while doing Anapana. If ALL sankhara(SABBE sankhara) leads to dukkha, how can Anapana sankhara lead to dukkha when it helps end the rebirth process thus helps end suffering?
Even though it says ALL sankhara lead to dukkha, Anapana sankhara seems to be an exception.
Do we carry what we cultivate in this life to the next life?
For example someone with high dosa works on reducing it or someone with low karuna works on increasing it. Would the reduced dosa levels and increased karuna levels be carried over to the next life as well?
Idle talk(talking about weather, sports and other entertainment, politics, likes and dislikes, etc) is immoral in vaca-when speaking idle chatter with someone else.
What about idle chatter in sankappa when it is to yourself in your thoughts? Is idle talk immoral in sankappa too?
I noticed many thoughts that arise in my mind are irrelevant talk.
What if someone constantly thinks about misfortunes happening to them like breaking a leg, losing their house, their car burning down, getting a disease, turning blind, being in a airplane crash, etc.
If they simply think about it(a lot), then it is more likely to happen to them? With negative thoughts they will not put in the effort to make it happen like they would with positive thoughts. If anything, they would put in the effort to prevent the negative thoughts from happening.
So it’s not killing, not stealing, not doing sexual misconduct, not lying, not saying harsh speech, not slandering, not speaking idle chatter, etc.
For not killing, not stealing, not doing sexual misconduct-isn’t that what majority of humans are doing right now? Are they doing kusala kamma(purifying their minds) in that respect?
It seems that some of the kusala kamma are non-activities.
1) Isn’t that basically doing nothing(like not killing, not stealing, etc)?
2) If it is doing nothing, can it be classified as kamma?
3) Can one purify one’s mind from doing nothing?
I know we should Anapana thoughts that are the stronger versions of greed like lobha/abhijja. But what about weaker versions of greed like assada/kama raga.
It is starting at the Anagami stage one has eliminated kama raga. Sotapanna and Sakadagami still have kama raga.
1) So should we also suppress thoughts that involve assada/kama raga(thoughts about food, music, beautiful sceneries, an attractive person)?
2) Do we need to suppress and Anapana assada/kama raga to get to Sotapanna stage?
If I understand correctly, an impure mind has a more difficult time grasping concepts and concentrating during meditation.
Anapana purifies the mind right?
If I keep doing Anapana, then gradually within time my mind will be more pure and thus I’ll be able grasp more Buddhist concepts.
This worries me. I have trouble understanding the Paticca Samuppada. All this time I thought it was mainly the Tilakkhana one had to understand.
Does one have to know the ins and outs in detail or is a general understanding fine?
Or is it that they understand Paticca Samuda as result of becoming Sotapanna, as in after becoming Sotapanna?
