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Regarding Lals reply I would add: There is a moment when one on the path can see that even having an opinion or tending to think and ponder about worldly things is already a danger and ditthi. If harmful or not helpful thinking is involved one is acting with lobha, dosa, moha. Normal people always tend to value mundane issues highly. They cannot see the futility in it. These worldly activities will bind one to this world. The mind will get agitated and thus pulled away from Nibbana. The peace of mind is disturbed. Of course some activities are still necessary to fulfill certain tasks and responsibilities.
AN 4.183 Sutasutta:
“…When, for one who speaks of what has been seen, unskillful mental qualities increase and skillful mental qualities decrease, then that sort of thing should not be spoken about. But when, for one who speaks of what has been seen, unskillful mental qualities decrease and skillful mental qualities increase, then that sort of thing should be spoken about. …”
Now I remember: according to Goenka the sankharas are stored in the body (or mind) and come to the surface as sensation. Thus if one looks long enough at the sensations the store will be emptied and the mind is purified in this way. I wonder where this way is explained in the Tipitaka or by the Buddha. I guess nowhere.
Sankhara (=san+khara) is action by the mind which leads to kamma depending on the defilement/avijja involved. Kamma is stored as energy in mano loka. If actually kamma is meant to come to the surface via the body, then the Goenka technique teaches to eliminate all kamma in order to attain Nibbana. That would also be in contrast to Buddha Dhamma which says to remove defilements/gathi/tanha/asava in order to attain Nibbana.
The technique involves no contemplation and comprehension of the Tilakkhana which the Buddha revealed to the world. The question is how one can attain Nibbana without comprehension of the Tilakkhana?
Yes, the above is understood.
But kamma beeja are stored in the mano loka of each being. The mind is connected with the mano loka. Why is dhamma (e.g. kamma beeja) not directly sensed by the mind or hadaya vatthu?
How can an arupa brahma sense dhamma without mana indriya?
Hello Lal,
I just see that I have used the page numbers of the PDF, not the numbering in the book. Sorry for that.I agree with your statement, that the author seems not know the 6th input to the mind.
You wrote: “…we receive sense inputs exclusively through the mind-door. They come through the mana indriya in the brain (not known to modern science). …”
Here I have my problem with the mana indriya. The mana indriya is part of the body or located inside the body. Why is it needed to sense kamma (beeja)? As I understand kamma beeja are stored in the mano loka of each being. Why is kamma beeja not directly sensed by the mind or hadaya vatthu?
The same question applies to the mechanism of recalling memories from nama gotta. A brahma in arupa loka has only the hadaya vatthu, no mana indriya, right? If so, how can a brahma sense nama gotta or kamma beeja?
Hello Siebe,
you said: “A lot of medical treatment, for example, comes with sufferings. The doctor or parents who know the treatment will come with pain and trouble do not act immoral.”Sure this is not immoral. Moha can be translated as “morally blind” or “ignorant of the true nature of this world”. The medical treatment causes pain but is done with the intention to heal and to help, which is a moral act. It is not done with the intention to harm and to cause pain (that would be moha).
Your other two examples also have the goal to gain a healthy status of the person. That is always a good or kusala intention.
Kamma is intention. If intention is kusala, kamma is kusala. The possible pain associated with an action is embedded in the nature of this world. In your examples pain is not the intention. Thus the medication is given with sorrow for the pain caused but with good intention and the knowledge that the gained health is much more worth than the short lived pain.
Tobias
I was on a 10 day course. “Vipassana” there means to slowly scan your body (surface) and to observe the sensations, as they come, as they go. There is no other meditation object than the breath and the body sensations.
Before one starts the “vipassana” one is trained over 3 days in “anapana” (observing of the breath, in/out). This is to calm down the mind.
One learns also the mundane version of metta bhavana… “may all beings be happy …”
At the end of each day is a dhamma discourse with more or less mundane explanations e.g. about a “store of sankharas”, which have to be removed. I do not know the details anymore. It is a course for beginners and the content should be easy to grasp I guess.
As I was new to the matter, I did not ask the teacher about any details.
After the course I had so many questions that I searched through the web and found Lal’s website, which enabled me to gain real insight.Hello Lal,
I have checked your references mentioned in the forum: Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma (Bhikkhu Bodhi), page 52 and page 116. (Unfortunately the PDF is locked, so I cannot extract text. As I cannot manually type all these texts I thought to send it by email to you. Maybe you just comment them or you copy the text from your book (if unlocked).)
The difference between bodily vedana and the rest is clear. But the cause for such vedana is not clear (kamma vipaka or more causes).
I have scanned through the reference and found some places with hints:
Page 191 describes the independent mind door process with more causes than just kamma (according to L.Sayadaw).
Page 199 mentions only kamma, which “governs” the type of object experienced.
Page 266 mentions kamma as “proximate cause” of eye-consciousness etc., made at the moment of conception of the body or jathi (also at patisandhi or rebirth-linking). In the summary at the end it is said, that material phenomena are caused by the four great essentials or maha bhuta (proximate cause again).I think it can be said that the rebirth-linking between bhavas is controlled by kamma.
The bodily experience (also vedana) during a life time is something different. The texts on page 191 and 199 are opposed. The four great elements succumb to utu niyama. So it could be that some accidents, e.g. getting hit by a fallen stone, are due to other causes than kamma. Matter has four causes: kamma, citta, utu, ahara. Matter (rupa) is subject to other laws of nature, which generate circumstances that are not direct causes of kamma (wind, temperature, climate change …).
Can someone please send the link to Abhidhamma with the statement about “bodily pain is always due to kamma vipaka”? Or is there no English translation?
Lal wrote in the post cetasika – Connection to Gati, #10:
…However, amoha does not mean wisdom (panna)! Amoha is not a cetasika, but is a root cause. It is in all kusala citta in the sense that the immoral cetasika of moha is not present at that moment, i.e., the mind is not “covered”.As I understand it: adosa is kindness and alobha is generosity.
But there should not be a contradiction within the Tipitaka. The question is, wether here the sutta talks about paccaya or real causes or causes which finally origin from kamma. I think Lal should have a closer look at the pali version.
… bile, phlegm, wind, imbalance, climate, carelessness, assault …
These are strange causes. Or the translation is wrong.Maybe the 3 sans are meant: greed, hate, ignorance …with these one generates (based on vipaka) san-vedana of anger (bile and assault), heaviness (phlegm and carelessness), restlessness (wind and imbalance) … ?
Or is it about the 5 niyama dhamma (dhammata)?
Depending on the person the 5 hindrances are strong in the beginning. I guess in your case vicikicca and uddacca-kukkucca were relevant. That’s why one hovers around without knowing what is right and wrong. Learning Dhamma reduces the hindrances so that one can build faith in the Dhamma with the validation of its effectiveness.
My problem was in the beginning when I came to puredhamma.net. Learning Dhamma was something very strange to me, because I came form the field of breath meditation, where learning/grasping/comprehending was not really needed. Therefore I remember that I have send some stupid questions to Lal. I had to drop the thinking in wrong concepts first.
Great merits for Lal for all his efforts!
Dear Dr. Chakma, thank you for your kind words! May you progress on the path. Success is guaranteed in this way.
Hello Dr. Chakma,
I have read Dhamma and listened to recorded desana from Lal. The changes I experienced are in line with the explanations of what should happen at the Sotapanna stage. So the probability is very high that I have attained Sotapanna magga phala and that recorded desana are sufficient.Hello Lal,
thanks for your open words! I see that we share some experience on the path.As I have to maintain wordly things my mind gets distracted every day again. I have the feeling that the contemplation goes not so deep when I have to sort out daily issues first. Of course my mind is already calmer compared to e.g. 6 months before.
Also I realized that I want results on the path too fast. That is a gathi and may go away as I proceed…
