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Unfortunatly true. The most we can do is to help them see bit by bit

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Hi Yash, I have tried to make that point a few times. However, people will see their happiness as a sine curve, where y axis is happiness and x axis is time. On  the other hand, they will see the buddhist ones as a flat zero across time. Actually this I cannot refute so strongly. We will no longer be able to feel the happiness of a gold medal as much as olympic winners do, as you said, there is no longer/ not much vexation. Even when they understand that the pleasure is actually mind made and the release of vexation, pleasure is still pleasure, so what if it is mind made? And also with the Usain Bolt example, if people could, they would just find the next peak of the sine wave. To them, it would be better than experiencing a flat 0. “Nothing worth having comes easy” is the mentality that we all have.

The only point I can make is that the sine curve has more downs than ups for lay people, and perhaps buddhists will not be at flat 0 but progressively go higher with feelings of “well being”. Even this may be hard to get across, they would think it is a “placebo effect”. Another possible way of explaining is that buddhist can experience the highs without the lows. But I think that is not possible, to feel that much of pleasure you must have that much of vexation.

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Yash RS, Jittananto

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Hi Taryal

During Metta Bhavana, you can look at things the other way. You can see how people are trapped in this suffering due to their ignorance. You can contemplate the suffering they endure because of their ignorance. From here you can then you would sincerely want all beings to be free from suffering, because there is so much to endure. Think about it, if all beings are already Arahants/ sotapannas then there is no need to wish them to be free from suffering! Ultimately, Metta Bhavana is about the intention.

7. What matters is not the particular set of words used, but what is felt in one’s heart. In order to do that one needs to truly comprehend that there is REAL SUFFERING in this world, not only at the human or animal realms but in many other realms. (5. Ariya Metta Bhāvana (Loving Kindness Meditation)

Again, what’s important is to understand that an infinite number of beings are going through suffering, and you wish they can be rid of it. Just like how you can generate compassion from seeing a starving child, the same can be done with Metta Bhavana.

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taryal

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Hi Lal, thank you for sharing. Actually the context behind this question was that I am inspired by how monks in the Jethavanarana Buddhist Monastery were able to explain dhamma concepts to lay people without invoking much of kamma and rebirth, yet they can provide such convincing explanations for the lay person about how the puthujjana way of living is highly flawed. (By the way for those who have been trying to teach dhamma to their friends, i highly recommend their videos, they explain with simple logic which people are more willing to accept)

From here I thought that most problems can be solved without invoking the “wider worldview”. Of course to gain complete understanding, one must also ultimately learn the Noble Truths, Tilakkhana, Paticca Samuppāda.

You also remind me of the reflections from the conversation I had, and watching the sermons is that explaining dhamma concepts to a lay person with just “lay logic” would be a good way to comprehend the dhamma. That way you can be fully convinced yourself by explaining things with just logic.

However, my other reflection is that if we continue to do this, it may make us stray from the path because ultimately paticca samuppada cannot be understood with “lay logic”, and we won’t contemplate this wider worldview which is necessary for Nibbāna. For example, the second noble truth requires the understanding that attachment leads to birth, with does not follow “lay logic”

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Jittananto

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Thank you Jittananto. It is heartwarming to know that one is not truly helpless even after an apayagami by understanding the dhamma, even though it may take a long time for the effects to bear fruit!

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Jittananto

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Thank you Lal for pointing me to the links. I was mistaken that suttas reflect the word for word utterances of the Buddha. They need to be explained because the Buddha probably spoke a lot more than what is relayed in the sutta. Likewise for Bahiya, a lot more probably went on than what is reflected in the suttas.

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Yash: That Yogi ,even though has seen the dangers of apayagami actions, doesn’t know the method to Permanently eradicate such desires. He is just afraid. He has seen sensuality is tormenting, but doesn’t know how to Permanently stop it’s cravings. That Yogi himself has seen all this by Suppressing Kama Raga! How would he ever realise to eradicate it permanently?

Wow this is a wonderful point! You remind me that although they may somewhat grasp the ideas of suffering and the first noble truth, they are missing the second, third and fourth truths. Then there is still ignorance, ignorance that attachment leads to suffering.

Jittanato: Second, we do not know what results and paramis these yogis develop. Some of them may be bodhisattas, paccekabodhisattas, or future arahants.

Yes this also makes sense, perhaps developing wisdom on anicca dukkha anatta can help them in the path in the future, though it may not start them on the eightfold path initially. And thank you for sending the links on Pacceka Buddhas as well.

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Jittananto

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In Bāhiya Dārucīriya Mahāthera, what is mentioned is as follows:

(1) “That being so, Bāhiya, you should train yourself thus: in seeing visible objects (any visible object), be aware of the seeing as just seeing; in hearing sounds, be aware of the hearing as just hearing; likewise in experiencing odours, tastes and tangible objects be aware of the experiencing of smelling, tasting, and touching, as just smelling, tasting and touching respectively; and in cognizant mind objects, i.e. thoughts and ideas, be aware of just as cognizant.

(2) “Bāhiya, if you are able to remain aware of the seeing, the hearing, the experiencing, and the cognition of the (four categories of) sense objects, you will then be one who is not associated with attachment, hatred or bewilderment on account of the visible object that is seen, the sound that is heard, the palpable object that is experienced, or the mind-object that is cognized. In other words, certainly you will not be one who is attached, who hates, or who is bewildered.

(3) “Bāhiya, if on account of the visible object that is seen, the sound that is heard, the palpable object that is experienced, the mind-object that is cognized, you should have become not associated with attachment, hatred or bewilderment, i.e. if you should indeed have become not one who has attachment, who hates, or who is bewildered, then Bahiya, you will indeed become one who is not subject to craving, conceit or wrong view on account of the sense object that is seen, heard, experienced, or cognized. You will then have no thought of ‘This is mine’ (due to craving), no concept of ‘I’ (due to conceit), or no lingering idea or concept of ‘my self’ (due to wrong view).

(4) “Bāhiya, if you should indeed become one not subjected to craving, conceit or wrong view on account of the visible object that is seen, the sound that is heard, the palpable object that is experienced, the mind-object that is cognized, then Bahiya, (due to the absence of craving, conceit and wrong view in you) you will no more be reborn here in the human world, nor will you be reborn in the four remaining destinations (i.e. deva-world, the niraya world, the world of animals and the world of hungry spirits or petas). Apart from the present existence (of the human world) and the four remaining destinations, there is no other destination for you. The non-arising of fresh mind-andmatter virtually is the end of the defilements that are dukkha and the resultant round of existences that is dukkha.”

Is this what the Buddha actually said? Because in sutta central I see only the following:

“In that case, Bāhiya, you should train like this: ‘In the seen will be merely the seen; in the heard will be merely the heard; in the thought will be merely the thought; in the known will be merely the known.’ That’s how you should train. When you have trained in this way, you won’t be ‘by that’. When you’re not ‘by that’, you won’t be ‘in that’. When you’re not ‘in that’, you won’t be in this world or the world beyond or between the two. Just this is the end of suffering.”

What were the Buddha’s actual words? Is the sutta central one just a condensed one, or does the link Jittanato sent have additional commentaries, with words not from the Buddha himself? If what Buddha said is only from what is written in Sutta Central, then I am still confused how one can derive an understanding of rebirth, paticca samuppada, kamma from those words alone in Sutta Central.

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Thank you. In the second link, the story seems much longer than the sutta that i read initially from sutta central, which only had 4 lines from the buddha but now it seems like the buddha spoke a lot more to Bahiya. How is this the case? Where can i find “longer” versions of suttas next time?

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Hmm actually i’m trying to get to a deeper point here. “Becoming a sotapanna” is just a rhetorical question to show how absurd it is for a yogi to become a sotapanna just like that. But what i’m trying to get at is that the contemplation of anicca, dukkha and anatta does not seem to be enough since yogis who can see past lives can already come to such conclusions. 

Lal: Of course, your description of anariya yogis being able to see ALL types of past lives in incorrect. They cannot see their past lives in the apayas.

Does this mean if they can see lives in apayas then they are on the path without listening a word from the buddha/ noble associates? Of course not. Then, there is still something that they would still be missing. Perhaps it could be sakkaya ditthi as taryal mentioned. However, what i’m trying to show here is that anicca dukkha anatta is not enough, or i am missing something in my explanations of anicca dukkha anatta. 

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Lal: Our attachments to this world are triggered by sensory inputs. That is why the Loka sutta says it is the origin of the world. Once one understands how such attachments are triggered by “distorted sanna” it will be easier to avoid such attachments.

I understand that without distorted sanna there will be no attachment. However this does not mean that Bahiya understood the concept of attachment in the first place. He could have just “fixed” his distorted sanna without knowing that it removes the attachment which causes suffering!

Lal: Explanation of the deep meanings embedded in those verses requires many. many posts. Rebirth, suffering, 4 noble truths, paticca samuppada, kamma, tilakkhana, are all embedded in those verses.

From here do you imply that Bahiya was able to comprehend the basic rules of kamma, that suffering arises from ignorance, the paticca samuppada process just from these 4 lines? It seems highly impossible for me. I agree that one can link all the above concepts to the 4 lines, but to be able to know the existence of the concepts, let alone understand them seems not possible. 

My interpretation is still that he was able to see the world as it is, and that could be bare minimum for enlightenment. There are many ways to explain the same truth, we may only need to see the truth through one aspect (in this case about distorted sanna), than needing to learn all other aspects. Perhaps, Lal, I could learn more from your upcoming posts if you do elaborate how every other important concepts are embedded in the lines and how Bahiya could have derived them.

Jittananto: The power of the Paramis and Kusulas of the past is demonstrated by Arahant Bahiya, who was a bhikkhu during the time of Lord Buddha Kassapa.

Could you point to me where you’ve learnt this? Thank you!

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Yash: “Firstly, Everything in this universe is a manifestation of energy, the cars, the trees, the food, etc. all have atoms as the fundamental structure according to science. If we go deep,we get up to the quark level. In Buddha Dhamma it’s the Suddhataka.“

Yes! With this we can understand that everything is a product of cause and effect at that moment.Eg every second a fire burns is a product of some oxygen, an ignition and fuel. Meaning every second is a new manifestation! Because the causes are used up every second – eg i have to replenish the fuel every second. That can be said for everything in this world, even for inanimate objects. Eg every second a gold bar exist, it is because of the causes that the gold bar is at that temperature, the electromagnetic energies present within the gold bar. This also applies to people as well. This is how we can be “unshakeable” with the passing on of parents, because instead of seeing them as fixed entities, we have to see them as a product of cause and effect at every single moment. Their passing is simply due to the changes in conditions. From this we can see the anicca nature, that whatever fixed entities we think we like are actually just products of causes at that moment and they continue to be subjected to cause and effect.

Yash: “The bottom line is, you don’t even need to include time for Anicca. Even if someone earns a lot by selling drugs and is Enjoying sensuality, Anicca is there even at that moment.”

Yes! I thought that looking that things are of Anicca nature at that moment, without caring if it will last or not, can give you new insights. For example, even if something can last forever, and hypothetically if i can live forever to enjoy it and there is no rebirth, and hypothetically there are no kammic consequences for desiring it, one should still not desire it (anicca as undesirable). This is because of the understanding that the craving is mind made, the object actually does not bring happiness at all. 

I have been thinking about how Bahiya gained enlightenment after one verse:

“Ditte Ditta Mattañ Bhavissathi ,

  Suthe Sutha Mattañ Bhavissathi,

  Mute Muta Mattañ Bhavissathi,

  Viññāte Viññāta mattañ Bhavissathi”

“Where there is seeing, there is only the seeing

  Where there is hearing, there is only the hearing,

  Where there is feeling, there is only the feeling,

  Where there is cognizing, there is only the cognizing.”

Here, there is no mention of rebirth, suffering, 4 noble truths, paticca samuppada, kamma, tilakkhana, and no mention that things are subject to changes. Which made me think that all these are not required at the bare minimum, one just has to understand that there is nothing more to the sense we perceive, and not create any more “mind made thoughts”. Of course, understanding of all the other things in the Buddha’s world view can help achieve this, but at the core essence it may not be required. Again I could be wrong, Bahiya could have gained this understanding somehow even before meeting the Buddha, perhaps in his past lives, but he does not have to remember it/ think about it to be enlightened.

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Yash RS

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Lal: Thus, the kammic energy a human gandhabba acquires at the moment of its inception is enough to (i) sustain that gandhabba for many thousands of years and (ii) maintain interactions with the brain while inside a physical human body.

Then can we interpret that the “energy” required for a kammically neutral action, is just from a kamma vipaka?So perceiving sights, or generating a thought to tell the brain to move a finger? 

In the end, our actions are all just due to either kamma vipaka or kamma generating

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Thank you everyone. Perhaps Thero came up with this way of explanation to reach out to an audience with less exposure to the dhamma. However, with better understanding of the concepts, we should ultimately focus on interpreting from the tipitaka itself, eg anicca dukkha anatta, 4 noble truths.

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Then, what energy is the energy which the mind tells the brain to move the hand? Surely there must be an energy for the mind to signal the brain to do something, or the brain to signal the mind sights, smells etc. I’m talking about actions with no kammic consequences, eg lifting a finger

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