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Not an expert but those videos seem to be discussing arupa samapatti states.
Arupa loka is the world of immaterial beings composed only of citta and cetasika (mental factors), without rupa (material form). There are five Arupa Loka corresponding to the five Arupa Jhanas.
- In the following 2 realms only Nama exists without Rupa.
1. Akasanancayatana: the world of infinite space perception
2. Vinnanancayatana: the world of infinite consciousness perception - In the last 3 realms there is neither Nama nor Rupa but the mind is only present. Because there is still residual kamma in the form of Bhavatanha.
3. Akincannayatana: the world of nothingness perception
4. N’evanasannanasannayatana: the world of neither perception nor non-perception
5. Asannasatta: the world of unconscious beings - So one can see that even in the last 3 realms Arahanthood is not attained. Otherwise Namarupa would not be present, it is only suppressed.
Nibbana entails detachment from all 31 realms including the above 5 loka. This underscores the importance of pondering anicca.
1. Step 8 is the critical one. As long as one has not removed certain samyojana/anusaya, that mind will automatically attach to the object if it is “an object of interest.” Conscious thinking is NOT involved.
It is interesting that we talk about a “mind” as if it is a well defined entity, despite knowing that in reality there are only complex manifestations of causes and conditions.
After Step 8, say the person chooses to consciously generate thoughts about the object and walk towards it to “see” it better. Then the following operations would transpire:
- With the aid of kammic energy sustaining the bhava, hadaya vatthu generates cittas.
- Then a signal (kirana) is sent to the mana indriya in the brain
- An electrical activity is generated in the brain which uses energy from food to generate transferrable electrochemical signals
- Via PNS, they are sent to the peripheral parts of the body to cause movement.
- (#3 to 4 takes roughly about 6 seconds (according to Libet’s experiment)
I’d like to confer about the #1 step since the decision is made here. Is there a more detailed mechanism that explains how it happens?
It’s like asking “How do I know that consciousness exists” or “perception “exists while denying it because can not be “seen” yet it is experienced all the time
I think it has to do with fear of death and uncertainty. I remember telling an evangelical that a theory/doctrine that can’t make reliable predictions lacks credibility. Then they said it can’t be predicted whether I “love” my wife or not and foolishly connected it with the idea of Jesus dying on a cross. “In the beginning, God created heaven and earth..”, unfortunately, the universe is not made up of heaven and earth, but of innumerable planetary systems and galaxies that the Bible does not even come close to explaining.
This got me thinking though, of the mechanism necessary for “consciousness”. The following conditions need to line up for eye-consciousness to manifest:
object (arammana) + light + physical eye + Peripheral Nervous System (PNS) + Central Nervous System (Brain/mana indriya) + chakkhu pasada + hadaya vatthu (attention)
- Light reflects off the object
- Photons are received by eye ball
- Neurons from PNS transfer electric signals to Brain
- Brain converts it into a form that chakkhu pasada can receive
- Mana indriya sends ray signal (kirana) to chakkhu pasada rupa
- chakkhu pasada impinges the hadaya vatthu
- If the person is attentive, awareness manifests at this step
So far it is a plain awareness (vipāka viññāṇa). But if it is an object of interest, the initial attachment is automatic. Then the person can choose to generate conscious thoughts about the object or try to avoid it by distracting themselves. I think this is what causes the perception of ‘I’ or ‘me’. But if a single condition above is removed, awareness of the object can not occur. So it is worth noting that “conscious ability” is never constant. It is virtually non-existent while asleep and highly limited in the embryonic stages, but gradually goes up after birth as the baby grows by consuming food. It is sharpest in adulthood but will go down again in old age. This clearly suggests that there is no well-defined essence like a “soul”.
But I am curious about the mechanism involved in conscious thinking (the part after initial vipāka viññāṇa). A human has a large dense brain but cittas are consciously generated in the hadaya vatthu. Is it possible to know how that works?
Hello Venerable Daniel,
Thank you for your inspiring message! I am travelling to my home country Nepal later this year and plan to visit Sri Lanka in January. I would love to meet you in the Jethavanarama Buddhist Monastery.
Regards
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So I am curious to know why the Buddha rejected the commonly held idea of inner self. In other words, how does one know that the true atman/buddha nature does not exist?
I don’t think there is any way to directly prove that something does not exist. So we shall use reasoning and our experience. With that being said, I wrote a post about the approach that one could take to test the legitimacy of a theory/doctrine: Building Confidence in Dhamma
- I concluded that Buddha Dhamma passes that test. Do you disagree?
- Try applying it to the Vedic and Mahayana philosophies you referenced. Do they pass the test?
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All cakkavāla in a loka dhātu remain in that state for billions of years. Toward the latter half of that phase, all those Brahmas start “missing their sensual pleasures” they enjoyed while in the lower dense realms. Their desire to go back to such a way of living creates suddhāṭṭhaka (the fundamental particle in Buddha Dhamma; see below) in abundance; the accumulation of them over billions of years lead to the re-formation of the Sun, Earth, and other planets (cakkavāla.) It happens to all cakkavāla in that loka dhātu.
I didn’t realize Brahmas can desire sensual pleasures. I thought they don’t remember their lives in the kama loka?
Thank you for your kind comments, Lagrade. This thread was from a couple months ago and the issue here has been resolved, at least for me.
Lagrade wrote: “You seem to be very good at summarizing large amount of information. Are you a professional writer?”
Lmao, absolutely not! Thank you for your flattering remark but I’m just a confused Nepali software engineer living in USA.
Dr. Lal wrote: “Pure octads (suddhatthaka) are made in two ways:
1. Some are released to the external world as made by the mind. This contributes to the “aura” that surrounds our bodies.
2. The rest of kammic energy created by javana cittas does not reach the suddhatthaka stage and accumulates in vinnana dhatu as dhammā. See “What are rūpa? – Dhamma are rūpa too!”
- Those accumulated dhammās (discussed in the link above) generate suddhatthaka needed to make hadaya vatthu and pasada rupa for a new existence at cuti-patisandhi moments.”
Yes, I understood the above but I was specifically referring to the example where craving the taste of honey can contribute to accumulation of honey
Thank you! I’m kind of curious about where the pure octads go or are stored when generated by the mind.
Yeah I don’t understand it but thanks. It would have been helpful if Abhidhamma provided more details but I guess having a general sense of the material aspects and its correlation with the mind is enough.
Hello HugoZyl,
Thank you for your post. I will just add one point, complementary to what Waisaka and Yash have already said.
If Amitabha, for example, could take suffering beings to the Pure Land, do you think an uncountable number of them would still be in samsara? Believing in a divine being that looks after you might give you “momentary” peace, but what do you think, can it be maintained to your satisfaction? If someone wants to believe that Bible is the “word of God” because it makes them “feel” good, would it be appropriate for them to believe that the Universe is only a few thousand years old?
Whether one chooses to cling to the shallow comfort of a so-called “divine” being or puts in the work to end suffering at its root by embracing truth is a personal decision. However, I strongly believe that true compassion lies in helping others move closer to the truth. Consoling someone who holds a wrong view may only serve to perpetuate their suffering.
Hi y not,
Sorry for responding late. I’ve been busy looking for a job but the tech market hasn’t been so generous towards early grads like me. But I also wish you well and hope to see you soon!
I agree with what you said above. Humans generally seem to have a propensity to latch onto the “easy” routes. Why bother spending multiple lives straining your mind in search of the truth when you can “choose” to have faith that guarantees ticket to heaven? So it doesn’t seem unusual to think that Buddha’s prediction that Dhamma will flourish only for about 5 centuries became true.
In my country of Nepal, there is always a buzz regarding Buddha’s birthplace. If you go there and say “Buddha was born in India”, you could be abused. But if you ask them, “What did Buddha teach?”, then I can assure you that 99.9% wouldn’t have a clue. Growing up, I used to be a “believer” of divine like everyone else but after I was old enough to think for myself, I understood that worshipping an imaginary “sugar daddy” won’t bring any lasting peace. While your family and friends are headed to temple, worshipping statues and bathing in water alleged to be “sacred”, it was tough being the only one who didn’t (willingly) follow such hoax. I used to think that being an Atheist is hard. But now guess what I’ve realized, being a Buddhist is harder!
“Lord Vishnu and Lord Shiva (in Hinduism) are Devas.”
Ironic that worshipping devas won’t cause salvation.
“I am also not familiar with Buddha Amitabha. If it is a past Buddha (who has passed away), he would not be in any realm of the world.”
Well, not in the realm of Mahayana. Amitabha is expected to “save” you by taking you to the Pure Land if you have faith in him. Many Pure Land followers are convinced that it is not possible to purify the mind by using one’s own efforts so they chant different Buddha names hoping to be born in the Pure Land and be enlightened there.
Thank you, Dr. Lal. My post specifically referred to those who are relatively new and on their way to the Sotapanna stage. To make a paradigm change in thinking by going beyond the “mundane logic” of humans, one needs to be able to build confidence in the teachings first, so that they know that it is worth the time and effort. Your post encompasses the most relevant aspects. I’ve read suttas where Buddha says one can’t be truly sure about anything until they have experienced it themselves.
- In the following 2 realms only Nama exists without Rupa.
