[Yash RS]

^{I was telling about the philosophy of Buddha Dhamma to my uncle (my mother’s brother) who has adopted Hinduism many years ago. Since me and my family wanted that if anyone understands the Dhamma and attains any magga phala that would be such a perfect thing to do, so we tried to start from our relatives first. We were at my maternal grandmother’s home and i gathered everyone on the terrace to tell about the dhamma. So my uncle whom i am talking about asked many questions such as what is Buddha Dhamma, why one should adopt Buddha Dhamma, How is it different from other religions, etc. I was able to answer all the questions to the satisfaction of him, gave him the information about 31realms of existence (and the logic behind them), why one should keep his/her mind pure especially in extreme situations and why living only a Moral life would do nothing to free oneself from the hidden suffering, the Four noble truths, their meanings and material I think was enough for one to attain the sotapanna stage. Now, he had no questions left to ask, he said I understood everything but I will still follow Hinduism.! Then I again asked that do you have any doubts now?, he said no, but I will still follow Hinduism!.  Since Hinduism is full of rituals(with no logical and scientific backbone), worshipping of thousands of Gods, and Buddha Dhamma doesn’t contain such stuff, he said that Buddha Dhamma is incomplete!!. I was confused(and rather shocked), if he says he understood everything then why is he making such a statement? I could do nothing but smiled in disappointment. He made statements like -by following such and such rituals I have felt relief and relaxed, and I can see some instances from future as well by following them and blah blah.. I knew he was bragging (his mindset is not of a noble person, he never served his parents, that’s why I know). So what can be the reason of such hindrance of one’s attainment – Religion or Kammic effect ?}

[Lal]

It is hard to pinpoint why people can be irrational. But we know that it is not uncommon.

• Yes. It could be a kamma vipaka too. If he had blocked the path of someone, that would come back to block his path.

[Tobias G]

Only a few people are able to understand Bhudda Dhamma (panna indriya must be well developed). Most people think, speak and act in irrational way depending on existing kilesa. Your uncle seems to be bound by silabbata paramasa (a sanyoga). That is difficult to overcome. In my experience, few seek truth. But this is a must.

 

[taryal]

I feel like we’ve had similar experiences. Very recently, I tried sharing Dhamma with a (kind) Christian girl that I liked and whom I believed has enough paramita to be able to comprehend the teachings. I spoke about the “anicca” nature of the world described by Buddha. She immediately brought up the Genesis chapter of Bible which allegedly describes the origin of world’s “brokenness”. I questioned it by asking questions like, Why God chose to punish the descendants of the original sinners, why uncountable animals are suffering, etc. and also the theology itself by questions like why there is so much inequality in the world. She said she couldn’t find the answers to former questions and only answered the latter by saying, “There is a lot of inequality because of the sin. I believe that Jesus died for my sin and His promise is to come back to this world and save those that accept Him. Then there will be no death, sorrow and grief…”

She added at the end, “Justice will be served to those who don’t accept Him. They will be thrown into a lake of fire.” It sounded like she was telling me to F off, intentionally or not. So at that point, there was nothing I could do other than wish her well in disappointment.

As part of comprehending the anicca nature of this world, we must detach ourselves from outcomes that we don’t control. This made realize that we should inform others (even those we care about) without any expectation.

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Jittananto

[pathfinder]

I reflected that as long as you have a believe system, you can typically reason out anything based on that believe system. 

I was reading a book on questions which non believers typically asked christians, it is written by a christian.

One of them was “why is there good and bad in the world where there is god?” And his answer is

• we dont know for sure what is good and bad, his divine wisdom is greater than our wordly one
• so the bad can actually be helping us in god’s view

So you can see that they are able to answer questions, somewhat logically, if you accept their world system. Same for the good and bad problem in buddhism, we explain using kamma. Likewise for science, they would explain it with physical means. Eg before i came across this site when people tell me about ghosts or paranormal things I would explain it with physical explanations, eg maybe he was hallucinating, not enough sleep, so happen that the lamp stop working etc. and that’s because my believe system is as such.

That’s why it is extremely difficult to see the other view as logical, once we believe in a system, we can be quite stuck because all our explanations are satisfactory as long as we believe in the system mechanics. eg for buddhism is kamma, paticca samuppada etc, in christianity it is god and christ. 

Would like to take this time to remind ourselves that we must not be complacent and believe that we have found the absolute truth! That is not to say i don’t believe in the Buddha, I do, but we must remind ourselves that we could well be in the trap of our believe systems just like anyone else and any religion! And even if we believe in the Buddha, we could well be wrong with the interpretations of his teachings.

Which is why we must keep an open mind, not reject opinions and try to see their side, and at the same time rigorously investigate our own.

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Jittananto

[taryal]

Good post, pathfinder. I agree with most of what you said.

But, in this part of your post:

• we dont know for sure what is good and bad, his divine wisdom is greater than our wordly one
• so the bad can actually be helping us in god’s view

I am unable to see anything logical in this. It just sounds like an excuse to dodge difficult questions. Probably the most unsettling question for Theologians is, “If God exists, what exactly is stopping him from doing a better job of managing this world?” If they respond with something like, “God is bigger than you so you have no right to question His work“. How is this not a quintessential case of an ad hominem attack?

Laws of Kamma and Paticca Samuppada can’t be proven by modern science but Dr. Lal has repeatedly emphasized that one could approach these concepts with a scientific approach. Introduction – A Scientific Approach to Buddha Dhamma

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Jittananto

[pathfinder]

We can find similarities in Buddha dhamma. For example, the 4 unthinkables – eg the power of the Buddha. from our perspective, we accept it wholly. Likewise for christians, they would accept it wholly that God’s wisdom is far superior.

Taryal: ”How is this not a quintessential case of an ad hominem attack?”

We need not see it as an ad hominem attack. You can also visualise a humble christian who would say “to be honest, it does not seem logical to us now, but we know that god loves us and wants the best for us, therefore he creates our world as it is”

They key is to understand the core concepts of the religion. After that you can understand how and why they answer questions this way.

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Jittananto

[taryal]

Thank you, pathfinder. I am quoting Dr. Lal’s post on the thread that Jittananto started:

The sutta doesn’t say not to teach Dhamma; it just says to avoid useless debates.

The English translation is good. There are no “deep concepts” here, and it is straightforward.

“Bhikkhus, don’t get into arguments, such as:

“You don’t understand this teaching and training. I understand this teaching and training. What, you understand this teaching and training? You’re practicing wrong. I’m practicing right. I stay on topic, you don’t. You said last what you should have said first. You said first what you should have said last. What you’ve thought so much about has been disproved. Your doctrine is refuted. Go on, save your doctrine! You’re trapped; get yourself out of this—if you can!”

• Those types of “debates” are the ones to avoid. 
• Just saying, “Your argument is wrong. Mine is correct,” etc., is not beneficial. You only need to present your arguments with evidence from the Tipitaka. There is no need to engage in debates.

Such attitude can cause us to lose compassion towards those that don’t agree with our views. I will also add that we need to keep a humble attitude. Most of us are at most a Sotapanna which is only the beginning of the noble path.

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Tobias G, dosakkhayo

[pathfinder]

Well said, Taryal!

[Author]

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