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The problem has been solved. I have no more questions on this topic. Thank you to Lal, Jorg, LDF, and Lang.
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Today, I solved many problems after calm and slow deliberation. Below is what I have learned so far. Please let me know if there’s anything wrong.
1. Manāyatana and dhammāyatana correspond to vedanākkhandho saññākkhandho saṅkhārakkhandho viññāṇakkhandho.
I said: Rupakkhandha contains manāyatana? – Lal said: No.
2. Dasa rūpaāyatanāna, namely cakkhāyatanaṁ, rūpāyatanaṁ, sotāyatanaṁ, saddāyatanaṁ, ghānāyatanaṁ, gandhāyatanaṁ, jivhāyatanaṁ, rasāyatanaṁ, kāyāyatanaṁ, and phoṭṭhabbāyatanaṁ correspond to rupakkhandha. See; Pe 6
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Therefore, #6 should be revised.
“That makes sense since the six internal and five external āyatana takes into account the rupakkhandha.”
->”That makes sense since the five internal and five external āyatana takes into account the rupakkhandha.”
“The sixth external āyatana (dhammā) incorporates the four mental aggregates.”
-> “The sixth internal and external āyatana incorporates the four mental aggregates.”
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3. There are two main types of rūpa that appear in suttā.<br />
3-1 The first type of rūpa refers to matter and energy. It is suddhāṭhaka (apo, tejo, vayo, pathavi, akasa) and dhammā rūpa below it. See “Bhūta and Yathābhūta – What Do They Really Mean“<br />
3-2 The second rūpa is a mental impression created by the mind in the process of living being experiencing the first rūpa. It is not rūpa as matter and energy. All of the rupa that appear in the context referring to rupakkhandha is this second case.4. There are two stages of contamination of the mind.<br />
4-1 The first contamination occurs to all beings who have not attained Arahanthood. It is nine stages of contamination of citta. That’s why vipaka vinnana, experienced by all beings other than Arahant, is also contaminated. In this case, there is no tanha and kamma vinnana.4-2 The second contamination occurs only when the given arammana matches the one’s sangati. This is the “tiṇṇaṁ saṅgati phasso” case, which can lead to generating kamma vinnana.
5. Arahant is free of both contaminations. That’s because arahant completed yathābhūta ñāna. Therefore, arahant has no ayatana.
5-1 Both akusala mula PS and kusala mula PS include ayatana. It doesn’t happen to Arahant either of these.<br />
5-2 The reason ayatana occurs in both processes is to additionally focus on. In akusala mula PS, one focus on arammana to enjoy it (ayatana with san). On the other hand, ayatana in kusala mula PS is like zeroing in to understand in a way consistent with the laws of nature. (So there is no san in kusala mula ayatana) Therefore, in the case of Arahant, ayatana is not required. Because the zero adjustment process has been completed. i.e. The cultivation of yath̃bhūtanana has been completed.6. Experience is possible even after achieving the Arahantship. So Arahant has pancakkhandha. And Arahant’s mind would not allow any contamination. So, Arahant’s pancakkhandha can not be contaminated. Now, here is the question. Arahant’s pancakkhandha can not be called ayatana. Because there is no contaminant at all. Also, “Cakkhuñca paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjati cakkhuviññāṇaṁ” can not refer to the experience process of Arahant by the same reasoning. Then what should it be called?
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I think I’ve read a post distinguishing between paticca and paccya to describe the process. It said: paticca refers to only contaminated processes and paccya refers to both contaminated and non-contaminated, but I can’t remember.
I understand ayatana as a kind of colored glasses. Arahant doesn’t use ayatana because they have entirely developed yathābhūta nāna; that is, he takes off his colored glasses and sees the world with his bare eyes. Using indriya as ayatana means focusing on the target with san. The ‘focusing more than necessary’ on these objects in samsara occurs because they believe it is worthwhile. Arahant removed all raga, so they have no ‘focusing more than necessary’ or ayatana. Therefore, there is no samphassa by salayatana. In PS context, I understand salayatana. But I don’t understand ayatana in the context of 12 ayatana = 5 khandas. I wish I could know why I don’t understand. I feel that something doesn’t fit, but I don’t know exactly what’s wrong. So I first considered the possibility that my feelings might be wrong, but the feelings never disappeared. I really want to understand why I’m wrong. The sense of contradiction makes me uncomfortable. I can’t wait to get rid of this.
Saḷāyatana Are Not Sense Faculties
#6
“The sixth external āyatana (dhammā) incorporates the four mental aggregates. Nāmagotta contains all records of the four mental aggregates.”
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“Tattha katamaṁ dhammāyatanaṁ? Vedanākkhandho, saññākkhandho, saṅkhārakkhandho, yañca rūpaṁ anidassanaappaṭighaṁ dhammāyatanapariyāpannaṁ, asaṅkhatā ca dhātu.”
I wonder why there is no viññāṇakkhandho in this sentence. If nāmagotta contains all records of the four mental aggregates, why vibhanga defines dhammāyatana by using only three of them?
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Also, #6 said: “That makes sense since the six internal and five external āyatana takes into account the rupakkhandha.”
But in Pe 6: “Dasa rūpaāyatanāni cakkhu rūpā ca yāva kāyo phoṭṭhabbā ca, ayaṁ rūpakkhandho.”
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I wonder why there are these discrepancies with Tipitaka. I thought I understood, but on reflection, I don’t think so. When I thought I understood, I thought this:
“Pancakkhandha and Salayatana have the same extension, they just have different approaches. Pancakkhandha is more focused on the contents of information, but salayatana is on the occurrence process of information. That’s why dhammāyatana incorporates both dhammā and namagotta.”
Laydhammafollower said in #44645:
“RūpakKhanda is not stored, it is generated as needed from other four aggregates.
When memory is recalled, Rūpakkhanda is regenerated from four aggregates stored in kamma bhava.
And this process of recalling involves energy. So, that is why dhamma comes to mind as dhammā.”
But lal said in #44649:
“1. Rūpakkhanda is preserved in nāmalōka as namagotta. It is just a record without any energy.
2. So, there are two types of entities in the nāmalōka: (i) dhammā with kammic energy and (ii) namagotta without energy.
– dhammā can “come back” to our minds on their own. That is how kamma vipaka takes place. When the conditions are right, they bring vipaka.”And, Phassa (Contact) – Contact With Pasāda Rupa said:
“Cakkhāyatana Is Cakkhu Pasāda Rupa
3. Cakkhāyatana is not the eyes. The “seeing” takes place in the mind, and the “seat of the mind” is the hadaya vatthu. The image captured by the eyes gets transmitted to the cakkhu pasāda rupa, which transfers the image to the hadaya vatthu.”I think this post says clearly that kammaja kaya is ayatana.
But according to the post, ayatana is only mental, it can not be made of physical rupa.
Looking at these different explanations and discrepancies with Tipitaka, I think I’m quite lost. I tried to find a way to construct my questions more keenly to know the foundation of the definition of rupakkhandha. I’d like lal to answer yes or no.
Q1: Rupakkhandha contains paccuppana kammaja kaya? – I think it does not. Because it is made of satara mahabhuta. Or I’m completely wrong about paccuppana.
Q2: Rupakkhandha contains manāyatana? – I’m not sure whether it does or not. If it does, I’d like to know the reference in Tipitaka to make sure. In Vb 2: Chabbidhena manāyatanaṁ—cakkhuviññāṇaṁ, sotaviññāṇaṁ, ghānaviññāṇaṁ, jivhāviññāṇaṁ, kāyaviññāṇaṁ, manoviññāṇaṁ. Evaṁ chabbidhena manāyatanaṁ. So if rupakkhandha contains manāyatana, rupakkhandha has six vinnanas too.
Rupakkhandha is all mental impressions of physical rupa, but it is not the mental aggregates(vedanakkhandha, sannakkhandha, sankharakkhandha, vinnanakkhanda). Is there a reason why isn’t rupakkhandha categorized as nama in here even though it is mental?
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“Kamma Viññāna is not strictly mental and is responsible for the Nāmarūpa Formation leading to the arising of rupa.”
I wrote it down here and read vibhanga again.
Dasavidhena manāyatanaṁ—cakkhuviññāṇaṁ, sotaviññāṇaṁ, ghānaviññāṇaṁ, jivhāviññāṇaṁ, kāyaviññāṇaṁ atthi sukhasahagataṁ, atthi dukkhasahagataṁ, manodhātu, manoviññāṇadhātu atthi kusalaṁ, atthi akusalaṁ, atthi abyākataṁ. Evaṁ dasavidhena manāyatanaṁ.
Does manāyatana contains viññāṇakkhandha? And that’s why viññāṇakkhandha is not defined in dhammāyatana? I don’t think it is, but I just tried to find the reason why viññāṇakkhandha is not referred to in Ayatana vibhanga.
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Ekādasāyatanā saṅkhatā. Dhammāyatanaṁ siyā saṅkhataṁ, siyā asaṅkhataṁ.
Is this a reference to namagotta being permanent? I understand that sankhata means everything that goes through three stages: uppada, thiti, and vaya. And namagotta is permanent, so it can not get ‘vaya’. In that context, can namagotta be called asankhata? So, there is another way of the usage of the word asaṅkhata instead of referring to Nibbana? Because Vb 2 also said: Tattha katamā asaṅkhatā dhātu? Rāgakkhayo, dosakkhayo, mohakkhayo—ayaṁ vuccati “asaṅkhatā dhātu”.
Saḷāyatana Are Not Sense Faculties
#2
Since internal āyatana takes into account all past, present, and future (perceived) sense faculties, our current sense faculties are only a minute fraction of the category of “internal āyatana.”
#7
In the section “The Five Aggregates (Pañcakkhandha),” we discussed the fact that we get attached to only a fraction of the five aggregates (things in this world.)
In this “analysis in terms of the twelve āyatana,” we can see that we attach to the same pañca upādānakkhandā (pañcupādānakkhandā.)
We attach to all six internal āyatana. That happens for all average humans who view/perceive all internal sense faculties as “mine.” As we discussed, that view is sakkāya diṭṭhi.
However, we attach to only a fraction of external āyatana. For example, we attach only to a fraction of external rupa, sadda, gandha, rasa, and phottabba.
With the above background, we can now discuss some critical facts.–
OK. Now I got it. There is no contradiction. I don’t know why I missed these sentences. This post is wonderful! I am deeply indebted to lal for all your help.
But that does not answer that “cakkayatana is cakkhu pasada rupa made of apo, tejo, vayo, pathavi“. If something is made of satara mahabhuta, it can not be in vinnana dhatu. And pancakkhandha are all in vinnana dhatu. Therefore, there is a possibility that the ‘cakkhu pasāda’ in the ayatanavibhanga is not referring to the pasada rupa of kammaja kaya. Or maybe I’m completely mistaken.
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Difference Between Physical Rūpa and Rūpakkhandha
8. Now, we can see the main difference between physical rūpa and rūpakkhandha.
A physical rūpa is either of the following two kinds. A solid object that one sees with one ‘s eyes or touches with one’s body (a person, a person’s body or a body part, a tree, a planet, a star, etc.) Those are what we usually call “solid objects.” Then, other sensory inputs come through the other three sense doors (smells, tastes, or sounds).
Rūpakkhandha has MENTAL IMPRESSIONS of all external rūpā that one has EXPERIENCED. Rūpakkhandha is NOT tangible or has any energy in them. One’s rūpakkhandha is INFINITE. It has records of ALL one has seen in ALL past lives going back and back in time without “an actual beginning.”+)
Tattha katamaṁ rūpāyatanaṁ? Yaṁ rūpaṁ catunnaṁ mahābhūtānaṁ upādāya vaṇṇanibhā sanidassanaṁ sappaṭighaṁ nīlaṁ pītakaṁ lohitakaṁ odātaṁ kāḷakaṁ mañjiṭṭhakaṁ hari harivaṇṇaṁ ambaṅkuravaṇṇaṁ dīghaṁ rassaṁ aṇuṁ thūlaṁ vaṭṭaṁ parimaṇḍalaṁ caturassaṁ chaḷaṁsaṁ aṭṭhaṁsaṁ soḷasaṁsaṁ ninnaṁ thalaṁ chāyā ātapo āloko andhakāro abbhā mahikā dhūmo rajo candamaṇḍalassa vaṇṇanibhā sūriyamaṇḍalassa vaṇṇanibhā tārakarūpānaṁ vaṇṇanibhā ādāsamaṇḍalassa vaṇṇanibhā maṇisaṅkhamuttaveḷuriyassa vaṇṇanibhā jātarūparajatassa vaṇṇanibhā, yaṁ vā panaññampi atthi rūpaṁ catunnaṁ mahābhūtānaṁ upādāya vaṇṇanibhā sanidassanaṁ sappaṭighaṁ, yaṁ rūpaṁ sanidassanaṁ sappaṭighaṁ cakkhunā anidassanena sappaṭighena passi vā passati vā passissati vā passe vā, rūpampetaṁ rūpāyatanampetaṁ rūpadhātupesā.
So rūpāyatana is not in vinnana dhatu.
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I’m going to organize what I understand.
There are three kinds of information in the samsara.
First type: Information made by suddhāṭṭhaka; apo, tejo, vayo, pathavi.
Second type: Information about F-information, which is vipaka vinnana.
Third type: The information by mind creation, which is dhammā.
The Paticca Samuppada process describes the flow of circulating these three types of information.
We accept information of type F in the form of type S. (Vipaka vinnana)
If it is matched our sangati, ‘tanha paccaya upadana’ and ‘upadana paccaya bhava’ run.
Therefore, information of type T(dhammā) will be created by the mind.
And information of type T is turned into type F. (creation of new manomaya kaya)
F->S is a mechanical and automatic process. In this case, we have no choice. It also happens in the case of Arahant.<br />
But S->T is different. We can make a choice. We have the power not to upadana. Arahant makes no information of type T with san.
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Ayatana is a way of explaining the defiled F->S process. Ayatana is influenced by sangati. Accumulation of sangati occurs at the S->T process. If there is no san(arahant), there is no ayatana.
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To sum up, I’d like to hear why living arahant does not have salayatana, but pancakkhandha. If the extension of salayatana is the same as the extension of pancakkhandha, it can not happen.
Ragakkhayo Nibbanan.
There are three types of raga: kama raga, rupa raga, arupa raga.
To put it simply, PS describes how raga turns into kaya.
If you have yet kama raga, you will be born in kama loka. (Kama kaya)
Samely, rupa and arupa raga gives you (a)rupavacara kaya.
So, the continuation of samsara is to continue with getting kaya.
As long as someone thinks kaya is a good thing(have raga), the creation of kaya doesn’t stop.
Sakkaya ditthi is sath + kaya. So put together, it means samsara is good for oneself.
Kaya comes from raga. Ragakkhayo is the end of kaya. That is why there is no kaya in Nibbana.
Also, if there is no kaya(manomaya), there can not be citta too. So, there is no citta or cetasika in Nibbana.
“The problem with the question is in the bolded part. The gandhabba is the kammaja kaya. It has its pancakkhandha.”
OK. The problem has been solved now. Thank you. The question was made to translate it into Korean more neatly.
+) If one makes sankhara, it makes sankhata: manomaya kaya, dhamma rupa, etc. (uppada)
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Lal, I think the above analysis might enhance the value of the post Introduction -2 – The Three Categories of Suffering with compactness. How about using it?
There are three layers of suffering: dukkha dukkha, viparinama dukkha, and sankhara dukkha.
I arranged them in deep order.
The first step is to understand the law of kamma.
The punna(good) kamma can give us happiness(good vipaka).
The akusala(bad) kamma can give us suffering(bad vipaka).
So we can see that the suffering is due to the bad kamma.
It means you’ll pay for what you do, good or bad.
But we don’t need Buddha Dhamma to know it.
The second step is to understand mortality.
Everything born must die one day.
Naked we come into the world, and naked we leave it.
No matter how good it is, it will be over one day.
But we don’t need Buddha Dhamma to know it, either.
The third step is to understand the danger of samsara.
When we understand sankhara dukkha, we understand how to chunk the two previous dukkha.
We suffer when we make an effort inconsistent with nature’s laws. (dukkha dukkha)
For example, they believe that evil can cause happiness, that they can achieve happiness without providing the right conditions, or that an inappropriate way is appropriate.
It is linked to ‘aññathā(unexpected change of sankhata)’. (aññathattaṁ saṅkhatalakkhaṇa)
Unpredictable changes make it difficult to grasp the conditions that must be prepared to achieve happiness.
This creates a time gap between happiness and effort.
Efforts to narrow this gap forcefully harm other beings(akusala kamma).
And someday, it gives us bad vipaka.
Therefore, all efforts inconsistent with the laws of nature must lead to suffering.
Furthermore, we suffer when we make an effort consistent with nature’s laws too. (viparinama dukkha)
Even if we do all good deeds and birth in the good realms, we can’t help ourselves from running up against death. (vayo saṅkhatalakkhaṇa)
So, all efforts consistent with the laws of nature must lead to suffering.
This is a dead-end ally in samsara. As long as we think that the choice to continue samsara is a good thing, we must meet it.
As long as you try to find happiness in samsara, there must be suffering. (sankhara dukkha)
This is the essence of Buddha Dhamma.
That is why the sankhara dukkha is “the great danger“
Ne 5 “tasmā saṅkhāradukkhatā dukkhaṁ lokassāti katvā dukkhamassa mahabbhayanti”
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I think that it’s very difficult for us to look at a given situation and distinguish what’s the cause and what’s the condition. Actually, kammavipaka is an acinteyya topic. Infinite gives us many counterintuitive phenomena.
Someone achieved an anagami stage and died. He still has a rupa raga. He was born in suddhāvāsa. However, he didn’t make it to remove the rupa raga until the end of that given bhava. In this case, in the cuti-patisandhi moment, does he get a new bhava in rupaloka? Or will the rebirth process end?
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Same way, if Sakadagami didn’t make it to remove the kama raga completely until the end of that given deva bhava, does he get a new bhava in Kamaloka? Or will the rebirth process end?
+)
I understood the dhamma niyata explanation as soon as I posted the question. So it is like a constant of nature. Empirical observations of it can be made, but we can never know why it is. So it is an acinteyya topic.
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Understanding
The newest thing about me while learning Pure Dhamma was explaining the memory process in detail. The infinite, eternal, and non-local preservation of information without extra energy revolutionized my thinking. There is no need for energy to remain anidassana/appaṭigha nāma. In contrast, every sankhata needs energy to maintain itself.
We can tell sankhata is information in a way. For example, a pencil contains not only the basic information that there is it but also information on how rubber, coal, and wood became pencils. Over time, the physical preservation of such information becomes impossible. However, mental information(pancakkhanda)is eternal.
It means there are two different types of information. The first type is sankhata, the first information. The second type is namagotta, the meta information. If the former is the information that there was a pencil there, the latter is the information that I saw that there was a pencil there.
The first type of information is not stored forever. But the second type is. It means the mind can generate meta-information, which is infinite and eternal.
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Practical application
The meta-information is infinite and eternal. It means that all the happiness in samsara is not new for me. Every kind of it has already been experienced. If I choose to continue the rebirth process, it’s not new at all because it’s the choice I made before already. But if I decide to stop the rebirth process, it is new. So the only new thing that can be done is the complete elimination of defilement.
