[dosakkhayo]

You are welcome.

[dosakkhayo]

Thank you for your warm encouragement.

Also, for correcting my sentence! When I wrote that sentence, I tried to find the right word, but I couldn’t. Now I found the proper term!

[dosakkhayo]

Thank for the fruitful answer. It gives a lot to me.

[dosakkhayo]

OK. I’ll be careful with capitalization next time.

So dāna means giving and cāga means generosity, the two are different concepts.

Thank you for the recommendation of other suttā. I read them all.

But I still want to know the meaning of this part.

Idha, gahapati, ariyasāvako vigatamalamaccherena cetasā agāraṁ ajjhāvasati muttacāgo payatapāṇi vosaggarato yācayogo dānasaṁvibhāgarato.

[dosakkhayo]

Thank for the answer.

To tell you the truth, I tried to express using logic the concepts of Puredhamma in a completely different way. There were two reasons for this. The first reason was to make it easier for others to access Puredhamma’s contents. I thought multiple ways to access Dhamma seemed good. The other was to test the contents’ consistency.

But there was a problem. During this work, I sometimes became overly skeptical. If a person’s mind is covered with so much suspicion, he can’t understand Dhamma. I was trying to express concepts in my own way that I didn’t even understand! And I’ve found inconsistencies in the process. Fortunately, I also scrutinized the results of my reasoning so I could find that they were all meaningless. Also, while maintaining an overly skeptical attitude, I had often thought about acinteyya topics. I had neglected to purify my mind and become accustomed to thinking only in my head.

I analyzed why I became so skeptical. The reason is that I was confusing “understanding that anicca has no logical flaw” with “cultivating anicca sanna”. I even mistook myself for sotapanna before. I had thought I was ariya, so I wondered why the effects of progress didn’t come to me. In conclusion, now I resolve to be humble and never arrogant about learning Dhamma.

When I read your reply, I realized that I had been mistaken for knowing so many posts. I decided to read all the posts again in English with a new mindset. I thought it might be faster to start all over again than to find out where my understanding went wrong.

A Simple Way to Enhance Merits (Kusala) and Avoid Demerits (Akusala)

7. Thus it is clear that just having an understanding of Dhamma (that it is unfruitful to gain anything at the expense of other beings) will automatically make the kammic power less potent; but this “knowledge” is not the “book knowledge”; it is not effective if one has read about it but the mind has not really grasped it. Wisdom and “book knowledge” are two different things.

Recently I realized the difference between wisdom and book knowledge. I felt that there was a long way to go. However, I am grateful that I can set the right direction for progress even now.

[dosakkhayo]

OK. I got the point what you mean. Thank you for the answer. Now I truly feel the danger of word-by-word translation clearly.

[dosakkhayo]

SN48.42

You said: “paṭisaraṇa means to provide refuge/protection.”

However, in this meaning of word, I don’t understand why Buddha tell the Brahmin Uṇṇābha like this.

Accayāsi, brāhmaṇa, pañhaṁ, nāsakkhi pañhassa pariyantaṁ gahetuṁ.
This question goes too far, brahmin! You weren’t able to grasp the limit of questioning.

I guess the sutta’s contents presents in this order.

(1) panca indriya
(2) they depend on mano, mano encompass all of them.
(3) mano depends on sati
(4) sati depends on vimutti
(5) vimutti depends on nibbana
(6) nibbana depends on?
(7) That question is outside of the scope of answerability

So I think from (3) to (5) is presenting the outline of way to nibbana.

In this context, the main point is that mano is the most important thing because it plays a central role in the way to nibbana.

But in (6), the point is changing. Because the question is basically like that. “What is the final destination’s destination?” I think that is why Buddha said: “This question goes too far, brahmin! You weren’t able to grasp the limit of questioning.”

So in this context, paṭisaraṇa might mean “depend” or something like that. I think the saraṇa of paṭisaraṇa can be seen the Buddha “saranam” gacchami.

If I was wrong, please tell the correct meaning of it to me.

[dosakkhayo]

TEST

Abhidhamma – Introduction

[dosakkhayo]

Thank you for the answer. And I’m sorry for my mistake. I didn’t know that.

This is what lal revised
https://suttacentral.net/an6.97/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin

And This is what I first copied.
https://suttacentral.net/an6.97/pli/ms?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin

I had cut the front part of link like this then pasted here like this.
https://suttacentral.net/an6.97/pli/ms

The reason why I cut the link is that the untidy link code is disturbing my writing, so I wanted to minimize it.

Now I know why I should not cut the link. I’ll keep it from now on.

[dosakkhayo]

I read the topic post on Kusala-Mula Paṭicca Samuppāda

Let me write what I understand. I ask you to be excused my out of grammar talking. It’s very difficult for me to construct a sentence while conveying my thought.

One who doesn’t understand Tilakkhana, Paṭicca Samuppāda, Four Noble Truth(I’ll abbreviate these three things as TPF from now on) can not go to stop rebirth process. One just keeps going rebirth endlessly.

In my view, it looks like a revolution of stars. They keep moving but never reach anywhere, just moving and moving on. So, Living without knowing TPF is anatta. There is no final destination. Only repetation of endless painful road. One goes round and round in circles and does not make any progress.

So, I can call one’s attempt with amoha revolves(turn) around avijja in that one can not reach any lokottara achievement.

(Of course, even if it is insufficient to attain nibbana, still have some meaning for setting a enought condition to learning dhamma, but in the this post I’ll leave aside this point to state my view)

But the case of paññā is not same as amoha. Paññā leads us to nibbana. So it is not the motion of revolution. It leads to go off the track of satta. Starting removing avijja is like that. In the Eightfold Path, ra + agga inclination which is continuing revolution is keeping decreasing.

Therefore the terms when we use to describe “amoha knowledge” do not match an achievement by paññā.

So, “It is not a matter of being able to recall what one has learned. That knowledge/understanding stays with the seat of the mind (hadaya vatthu) and is transferred to the next hadaya vatthu when grasping a new bhava.” None of amoha knowledge can make this change. Only paññā can do it.

But also I think I could see the common denominator between paññā and amoha. Those share the same method. Analytical, logical reasoning. I guess. So “It is the paññā cetasika that “represents” amoha.”

–
Lal said,
“What do you mean by ” inseparable group” in the last three questions? I am not sure what that means. May be you can give the Pali word for it.”

When I wrote that, I had thought that there is something generated or removed by panna in sotapanna’s mind. So I want to know the range of that change. For example, does the detailed knowledge of 31 realms belong to that change? Like that. So what I was trying to refer to by using the word “inseparable group” is the range of the change which happened in sotapanna.

But, I think this question is meaningless now.

–
“Before I go any further, were those the unresolved issues? Do the above explanations help? Do they need further clarification?”

I think all problems about this topic is solved.

[dosakkhayo]

If you want to ask me a question, just ask that question.
– OK. I’m sorry for making the matter too complicated.

[dosakkhayo]

“Where the 6 primary causes lobha, dosa, moha, alobha, adosa, amoha belong to?
the six dhatu? pathavi, apo, tejo, vayo, akasa, vinnana? or elsewhere?”

The reason why I asked the question is I had been confused by there is no amoha cetasika.

In that time, it was not clear for me that the six hetu and cetasika overlap each other.

So I tried to find any intersection point between six hetu and another concept.

In the process, I asked the question here. I also thought this question was ridiculous, but I tried it. This wasn’t because I didn’t understand the concept of six dhatu, it was just a try to know the concept of six hetu.

[dosakkhayo]

OK. I read all post of Sōtapanna Stage of Nibbāna subsection. And I found an answer of my question.

–
Now I think it’s time to ask the question I wrote in the title as I started this thread.

What is the knowing which Sotapanna cannot lose even beyond death?

In the forum“saññākkhandha comprises avijja, or saññā of nicca, sukha, atta”

To infer from this, we can say that sotapanna’s saññākkhandha got permanently changed.

We already know, cultivating sanna of any given concept is different with just memorizing the word or description of it.

What I’m curious about in here is following.

I learned that ariya’s achievement is can not regress.

If one died attained sotapanna stage, one will be born in human realm(or higher realm but in here not think about other case).

The punna iddhi is not common phenomenon. It is not ensured that all Sotapanna has punna iddhi.

Without punna iddhi or cultivate jhana and iddhi one cannot access the previous memory.

Nevertheless, whether one have iddhi, the understanding of sotapanna is never lost.

How far is the understanding that is never lost in the future?

First, of course, the tilakkhana, four noble truths, paticca samuppada belong to the inseparable group.

The aveccappasada to Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha also belong to there.

However, the knowledge of Pali words is not there. This is excluded in that there are individual differences. What I’d like to find is universal knowledge which every sotapanna has.

(1) Does knowing about 31 realm belong to the inseparable group?

(2) Does knowing about gandhabba belong to the inseparable group?

(3) Does knowing about abhidhamma belong to the inseparable group?

[dosakkhayo]

“Why cannot they be in both categories?
– Defilements are what lead to future births. Those defilements ARE the bad types of cetasika (asobhana cetasika).”

The reason why I thought they cannot be in both categories is (i) there is no amoha cetasika (ii) the amoha cetasika is not paññā.

Cetasika – Connection to Gati

“10. However, amoha does not mean wisdom (paññā)! Amoha is not a cetasika but is a root cause. It is in all kusala citta in the sense that the immoral cetasika of moha is not present at that moment, i.e., the mind is not “covered.””

–
But OK. The six hetu and cetasika overlap each other. Now I got it.

So amoha is just an absence of moha. Therefore, according to the law that the sobana cetasika and asobana cetasika cannot be together at the same time, when one do kusala or punna kamma there is no moha in one’s mind, because moha is universal asobana cetasika. Thus there is amoha, because of containing no moha. Right?

–
“You are confusing paramatta Dhamma with those present in one’s mind. If all paramatta Dhamma must be with a person, they will never attain Nibbana.”

I don’t get the context why you tell me that. I’ve already known that all paramatta Dhamma cannot be with a person.

The point that I’m actually confused about is “amoha is the lokiya version of paññā. And paññā is the lokkuttara version of amoha.” This comment is in here. In the korean puredhamma forum

I’m confused because lal said “Amoha is not a cetasika but is a root cause.”

So, to sum up, amoha is not only the absence of moha but also the expression of extent of paññā cetasika. Right?

[dosakkhayo]

Both are good.

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