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I am writing now because I have something that comes to mind after reading your answer. Perhaps I’ll make a new thread.
OK. Then I’ll change the question this way. I would like to know the mechanism when Arahant do kiriya.
This is what I made as a prototype. I hope my intentions are conveyed.
vijja (instead of avijja) – kiriya? (instead of sankara) – nana (instead of vinnana)- ? (instead of namarupa) – six indriya (instead of six ayatana) – phassa (instead of samphassa) – vedana (instead of samphassa-ja-vedana) – ? (instead of tanha) – ? (instead of upadana) – ? (instead of bhava) – ? (instead of jati) – ? (instead of jaramarana …)
What words should be instead of the bold question marks?
Phassa (Contact) – Contact With Pasāda Rupa
Phassa (Contact) comes in the middle of the Paṭicca Samuppāda (PS) process. However, PS processes start with “salāyatana paccayā phasso” or “an āyatana making contact.” That contact is between a rupa and one of the six āyatana (cakkhu, sota, gandha, jivhā, kāya, mano.) At the fundamental level, a rupa makes contact with the mind via one of the five pasāda rupa or directly with the mind (hadaya vatthu.)
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Indriya and Āyatana – Big DifferenceAnother way to state the difference is to say that when kamma vipāka brings us sense inputs, the sense faculties act as indriya. Following that we MAY deliberately use sense faculties to generate new kamma; then they work as āyatana. […] 12. Thus only Arahants use their sense faculties as indriya ALL THE TIME.
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Here is what I don’t understand. Life goes on after attaining Arahanthood. I know that Arahant still senses the world. So, there will be contact between a rupa and one of the six āyatana for Arahant too. But, as you said, “Arahants use their sense faculties as indriya ALL THE TIME”. I understand that the former context is somewhat different from the latter. However, if the two are compatible without contradiction, there must be at least a meaning to explain both in āyatana. I guess that there is a word showing the meaning of salāyatana of Arahant like kiriya(the kamma-free act of Arahant). Is there a word like Salindriya?Loka Sutta – Origin and Cessation of the World
“The rupakkhandha includes one’s sensory faculties and any “rupa” ever experienced.”
Ok. I have misunderstood the concept of rupakkhandha.
But I ask you a question to be sure.
In this context, sensory faculties mean ayatana. Right? Or include indriya too?
Dosakkhayo compiled the following figure:
I pressed the wrong button while writing.
“The Buddha defined rupa as ALL those that can provide a sensory experience (viññāna.) Therefore, dhammā that we experience with the mind are also a type of rupa. [……] It is essential to realize that rūpakkhandha is all mental. [……] rūpakkhandha are “mental impressions” of rūpa and NOT the rūpa out there.”
I am still looking for the key criterion to distinguish between nāma and rūpa. Why rūpakkhanda is not nāma? I am asking this question because rūpakkhanda was not mentioned.
Lal wrote in the forum:
“1. Nāmaloka (viññāṇa dhātu) consists of the four mental aggregates: vedanakkhandha, saññākkhandha, saṅkhārakkhandha, and viññāṇakkhandha.”And also wrote above:
“Rūpakkhanda (except for the paccuppanna or current moment) is preserved in nāmalōka as namagotta. It is just a record, without any energy.”If I understand correctly, there are atita rūpakkhanda, anāgata rūpakkhanda, atita vedanakkhandha, paccuppanna vedanakkhandha, anāgata vedanakkhandha, atita saññākkhandha, paccuppanna saññākkhandha, anāgata saññākkhandha, atita saṅkhārakkhandha, paccuppanna saṅkhārakkhandha, anāgata saṅkhārakkhandha, atita viññāṇakkhandha, paccuppanna viññāṇakkhandha, and anāgata viññāṇakkhandha in nāmalōka as namagotta.
So only paccupanna r̄upakkhanda among the pañcakkhandha doesn’t belong here.
I’d like to know why the paccuppanna rūpakkhanda excepted.
Difference Between Physical Rūpa and Rūpakkhandha
“The Buddha defined rupa as ALL those that can provide a sensory experience (viññāna.) Therefore, dhammā that we experience with the mind are also a type of rupa.”
I am still looking for the key criterion to distinguish between nāma and rūpa. Why rūpakkhanda is not nāma? I am asking this question because rūpakkhanda was not mentioned.
Lal wrote in the forum:
“1. Nāmaloka (viññāṇa dhātu) consists of the four mental aggregates: vedanakkhandha, saññākkhandha, saṅkhārakkhandha, and viññāṇakkhandha.”And also wrote above:
“Rūpakkhanda (except for the paccuppanna or current moment) is preserved in nāmalōka as namagotta.”If I understand correctly, there are atita rūpakkhanda, anāgata rūpakkhanda, atita vedanakkhandha, paccuppanna vedanakkhandha, anāgata vedanakkhandha, atita saññākkhandha, paccuppanna saññākkhandha, anāgata saññākkhandha, atita saṅkhārakkhandha, paccuppanna saṅkhārakkhandha, anāgata saṅkhārakkhandha, atita viññāṇakkhandha, paccuppanna viññāṇakkhandha, and anāgata viññāṇakkhandha in nāmalōka as namagotta.
So only paccupanna r̄upakkhanda among the pañcakkhandha doesn’t belong here.
The post wrote: “It is essential to realize that rūpakkhandha is all mental. [……] rūpakkhandha are “mental impressions” of rūpa and NOT the rūpa out there.”
And lal wrote: “Rūpakkhanda (except for the paccuppanna or current moment) is preserved in nāmalōka as namagotta. It is just a record, without any energy.”
I’d like to know why the paccuppanna rūpakkhanda excepted.
“– The other part of nāmagotta is associated with kamma viññāṇa. Those are dhammā that can bring vipāka. They also belong to “memory records” but have associated kammic energies and can bring vipāka on their own.”
After hearing this statement, I wonder if I misunderstood it. When I wrote “So everything I wrote above(except rūpakkhanda) belongs to one of these two categories(“dhammā below the suddhāṭṭhaka” and “namagotta”).”, I thought that mano loka has two mutually exclusive categories.
However, hearing this, the two categories do not seem to be divided, but rather are a way to describe the state of information. So, these two categories overlap each other. Am I right?
Thank you for the confirmation. Also, I read about HSAM. This seems to be a very helpful example of understanding namaloka.
Ok. The key point is whether the information has energy or not. So the active(with energy) information in nāmalōka belongs to dhammā category, and inactive information belongs namagotta category. Therefore, information of namagotta can not be imported into the mind itself but can be loaded when the mind activates it. On the other hand, information of dhammā can be imported into the mind itself, and also loaded when the mind activates it. Right?
Let me write down everything I understand first.
I know that dhammā(kamma viññāṇa) belongs to viññāṇa dhātu(or nāmalōka) and also is rūpa. Further, vedana, saññā, saṅkhāra, and viññāṇa belong to viññāṇa dhātu but aren’t rūpa too.
I know that vedanakkhandha, saññākkhandha, saṅkhārakkhandha, and viññāṇakkhandha are preserved permanently in nāmalōka, but rūpakkhanda are not. And I don’t know why rūpakkhanda can not be preserved even though it is mental. (I wonder why this is.)
Lal said: “Only dhammā below the suddhāṭṭhaka AND namagotta (memory records) belong to viññāṇa dhātu.”
Okay. So everything I wrote above(except rūpakkhanda) belongs to one of these two categories(“dhammā below the suddhāṭṭhaka” and “namagotta”). Right? Did I miss anything?
Lal said:
“Yes. It is good to ask questions.
– But sometimes, some questions become irrelevant because the basis for asking them is not there.Scientists are making discoveries about the world, But they will never reach the “knowledge base” of a Buddha.
– That the “end of the world.” That lifestream would not experience this world of 31 realms anymore.”
– These really help me a lot. I think I should focus on getting maggaphala and then think about delivering Dhamma to others. Of course, introducing Pure Dhamma will not stop. But I think it’s the proper order to do it myself after I become ariya.
– Also, I thought it would be good to set a good precedent. I hope that when someone has this kind of concern, later on, one can listen to your answer and move on correctly. I was able to ask that question because I have faith that lal is ariya. If not, I could not have been able to do it at all. Although I didn’t know about it, I believed Ariya would know the right words to say to someone in this situation.
– I just found that I’m trying to draw an answer from people without realizing it. I felt that this habit could be dangerous. I try to be as honest as possible, but I’m also afraid that the answers get contaminated as they mix in my responses. Anyway, I’ll think about this personally.
LayDhammaFollower said:
“By last argument, I meant Last argument in my post. I should have wrote, “My last argument” Dosakkhayo.”
– Now I understand the context. Thank you for telling me LayDhammaFollower.When I understand a concept, I ask all the questions I can.
=> When I try to understand a concept, I ask all the questions I can.LayDhammaFollower said: “Last argument is that let’s assume hypothetically there is some element other than nibbanā which is higher than nibbanā.”
I am not familiar with the pronoun expression in English. So the “last argument” is unclear to me exactly what it is referring to. But if it’s referring to my comment, no. I’m not assuming anything.
When I understand a concept, I ask all the questions I can. Because then what that concept means becomes clearer. I don’t execute this process to claim anything. To create a temporary hypothesis and test it is what scientists do. If the test result doesn’t match it, I just discard it. So, I’m just interested in reaching the correct answer. I am not trying to argue that my hypothesis is correct.
I understand what you’re trying to say, too. And I believe that that is correct. But I also want to understand Dhamma with thorough verification. Someone will grapple with the same problem as me. And I want to say something helpful to someone like that if they are around me. I know I was wrong. I just want to know which part is. That’s why I honestly posted my errors. Though I have not yet achieved any maggaphala, I think it’s the right way to say that I don’t know what I don’t know, and I know what I know.
I know you wrote it with a heart to help me. That heart is very precious, and I’ll take it with thanks. The important thing to me is to understand the deeper side of Dhamma by purifying the mind. Lal seems to have given me a good answer in that regard.
Anyway, I got a feel for what I was supposed to do after hearing from lal and layDhammaFollower. Thank you for your good advice.
Thank you for the answers. I think I’m getting some clue as to how to proceed.
“If a Sotapanna attains an anariya jhana, it is unlikely they will lose it before dying. Thus, they will be born in a Brahma realm (not a suddhavasa Brahma realm) and attain Arahanthood from there. Thus Sotapannas with anariya jhana are also Angamis, in the sense that they will not return to kama loka.”
It is a very interesting fact. Thank you for telling me.
