[dosakkhayo]

“Not many people can understand the details of Avyākata Paṭicca Samuppāda. As I have stated before, it is not necessary to understand those details if one can understand the basic two types: Akusala-mula PS and Kusala-mula PS (origin of suffering and stopping it).”

I’d appreciate your input on it. It helped me a lot.

[dosakkhayo]

I already know all three of them. What I want to hear is a mechanism that can explain how Arahant can use abhiññā powers despite he/she can not make a javana citta.

Javana of a Citta – The Root of Mental Power
#13
“Finally, These javana cittā have the power to produce suddhāṭṭhaka, the fundamental building blocks of rupa.”

So, Cūḷapanthaka Thero’s iddhividha is based on the javana citta that can produce suddhāṭṭhaka.

But, Arahant can never have javana citta. That’s why the question arises.

Perhaps I had mistakenly extended that Arahant cannot generate javana citta related to akusala to not be able to generate all javana citta.

Or, it may not be this. Anyway, I know something is wrong, but I don’t know what’s wrong.

I’d appreciate any help or advice you can give me.

with metta.

[dosakkhayo]

The re-written post and latest answer are enough for me to understand. Thank you lal.

[dosakkhayo]

Could you explain the meaning of the word avippaṭisāralakkhaṇā?

[dosakkhayo]

I am writing now because I have something that comes to mind after reading your answer. Perhaps I’ll make a new thread.

[dosakkhayo]

All right, that’s really a lot of comfort. Thank you. Lal.

[dosakkhayo]

OK. Then I’ll change the question this way. I would like to know the mechanism when Arahant do kiriya.

This is what I made as a prototype. I hope my intentions are conveyed.

vijja (instead of avijja) – kiriya? (instead of sankara) – nana (instead of vinnana)- ? (instead of namarupa) – six indriya (instead of six ayatana) – phassa (instead of samphassa) – vedana (instead of samphassa-ja-vedana) – ? (instead of tanha) – ? (instead of upadana) – ? (instead of bhava) – ? (instead of jati) – ? (instead of jaramarana …)

What words should be instead of the bold question marks?

[dosakkhayo]

Phassa (Contact) – Contact With Pasāda Rupa

Phassa (Contact) comes in the middle of the Paṭicca Samuppāda (PS) process. However, PS processes start with “salāyatana paccayā phasso” or “an āyatana making contact.” That contact is between a rupa and one of the six āyatana (cakkhu, sota, gandha, jivhā, kāya, mano.) At the fundamental level, a rupa makes contact with the mind via one of the five pasāda rupa or directly with the mind (hadaya vatthu.)

–
Indriya and Āyatana – Big Difference

Another way to state the difference is to say that when kamma vipāka brings us sense inputs, the sense faculties act as indriya. Following that we MAY deliberately use sense faculties to generate new kamma; then they work as āyatana. […] 12. Thus only Arahants use their sense faculties as indriya ALL THE TIME.

–
Here is what I don’t understand. Life goes on after attaining Arahanthood. I know that Arahant still senses the world. So, there will be contact between a rupa and one of the six āyatana for Arahant too. But, as you said, “Arahants use their sense faculties as indriya ALL THE TIME”. I understand that the former context is somewhat different from the latter. However, if the two are compatible without contradiction, there must be at least a meaning to explain both in āyatana. I guess that there is a word showing the meaning of salāyatana of Arahant like kiriya(the kamma-free act of Arahant). Is there a word like Salindriya?

[dosakkhayo]

Loka Sutta – Origin and Cessation of the World

“The rupakkhandha includes one’s sensory faculties and any “rupa” ever experienced.”

Ok. I have misunderstood the concept of rupakkhandha.

But I ask you a question to be sure.

In this context, sensory faculties mean ayatana. Right? Or include indriya too?

Dosakkhayo compiled the following figure:

[dosakkhayo]

I pressed the wrong button while writing.

“The Buddha defined rupa as ALL those that can provide a sensory experience (viññāna.) Therefore, dhammā that we experience with the mind are also a type of rupa. [……] It is essential to realize that rūpakkhandha is all mental. [……] rūpakkhandha are “mental impressions” of rūpa and NOT the rūpa out there.”

I am still looking for the key criterion to distinguish between nāma and rūpa. Why rūpakkhanda is not nāma? I am asking this question because rūpakkhanda was not mentioned.

Lal wrote in the forum:
“1. Nāmaloka (viññāṇa dhātu) consists of the four mental aggregates: vedanakkhandha, saññākkhandha, saṅkhārakkhandha, and viññāṇakkhandha.”

And also wrote above:
“Rūpakkhanda (except for the paccuppanna or current moment) is preserved in nāmalōka as namagotta. It is just a record, without any energy.”

If I understand correctly, there are atita rūpakkhanda, anāgata rūpakkhanda, atita vedanakkhandha, paccuppanna vedanakkhandha, anāgata vedanakkhandha, atita saññākkhandha, paccuppanna saññākkhandha, anāgata saññākkhandha, atita saṅkhārakkhandha, paccuppanna saṅkhārakkhandha, anāgata saṅkhārakkhandha, atita viññāṇakkhandha, paccuppanna viññāṇakkhandha, and anāgata viññāṇakkhandha in nāmalōka as namagotta.

So only paccupanna r̄upakkhanda among the pañcakkhandha doesn’t belong here.

I’d like to know why the paccuppanna rūpakkhanda excepted.

[dosakkhayo]

Difference Between Physical Rūpa and Rūpakkhandha

“The Buddha defined rupa as ALL those that can provide a sensory experience (viññāna.) Therefore, dhammā that we experience with the mind are also a type of rupa.”

I am still looking for the key criterion to distinguish between nāma and rūpa. Why rūpakkhanda is not nāma? I am asking this question because rūpakkhanda was not mentioned.

Lal wrote in the forum:
“1. Nāmaloka (viññāṇa dhātu) consists of the four mental aggregates: vedanakkhandha, saññākkhandha, saṅkhārakkhandha, and viññāṇakkhandha.”

And also wrote above:
“Rūpakkhanda (except for the paccuppanna or current moment) is preserved in nāmalōka as namagotta.”

If I understand correctly, there are atita rūpakkhanda, anāgata rūpakkhanda, atita vedanakkhandha, paccuppanna vedanakkhandha, anāgata vedanakkhandha, atita saññākkhandha, paccuppanna saññākkhandha, anāgata saññākkhandha, atita saṅkhārakkhandha, paccuppanna saṅkhārakkhandha, anāgata saṅkhārakkhandha, atita viññāṇakkhandha, paccuppanna viññāṇakkhandha, and anāgata viññāṇakkhandha in nāmalōka as namagotta.

So only paccupanna r̄upakkhanda among the pañcakkhandha doesn’t belong here.

The post wrote: “It is essential to realize that rūpakkhandha is all mental. [……] rūpakkhandha are “mental impressions” of rūpa and NOT the rūpa out there.”

And lal wrote: “Rūpakkhanda (except for the paccuppanna or current moment) is preserved in nāmalōka as namagotta. It is just a record, without any energy.”

I’d like to know why the paccuppanna rūpakkhanda excepted.

[dosakkhayo]

“– The other part of nāmagotta is associated with kamma viññāṇa. Those are dhammā that can bring vipāka. They also belong to “memory records” but have associated kammic energies and can bring vipāka on their own.”

After hearing this statement, I wonder if I misunderstood it. When I wrote “So everything I wrote above(except rūpakkhanda) belongs to one of these two categories(“dhammā below the suddhāṭṭhaka” and “namagotta”).”, I thought that mano loka has two mutually exclusive categories.

However, hearing this, the two categories do not seem to be divided, but rather are a way to describe the state of information. So, these two categories overlap each other. Am I right?

[dosakkhayo]

Thank you for the confirmation. Also, I read about HSAM. This seems to be a very helpful example of understanding namaloka.

[dosakkhayo]

Ok. The key point is whether the information has energy or not. So the active(with energy) information in nāmalōka belongs to dhammā category, and inactive information belongs namagotta category. Therefore, information of namagotta can not be imported into the mind itself but can be loaded when the mind activates it. On the other hand, information of dhammā can be imported into the mind itself, and also loaded when the mind activates it. Right?

[dosakkhayo]

Let me write down everything I understand first.

I know that dhammā(kamma viññāṇa) belongs to viññāṇa dhātu(or nāmalōka) and also is rūpa. Further, vedana, saññā, saṅkhāra, and viññāṇa belong to viññāṇa dhātu but aren’t rūpa too.

I know that vedanakkhandha, saññākkhandha, saṅkhārakkhandha, and viññāṇakkhandha are preserved permanently in nāmalōka, but rūpakkhanda are not. And I don’t know why rūpakkhanda can not be preserved even though it is mental. (I wonder why this is.)

Lal said: “Only dhammā below the suddhāṭṭhaka AND namagotta (memory records) belong to viññāṇa dhātu.”

Okay. So everything I wrote above(except rūpakkhanda) belongs to one of these two categories(“dhammā below the suddhāṭṭhaka” and “namagotta”). Right? Did I miss anything?

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