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It seems that in the days of the Buddha, everyone knew that words like phassa, sankhara, cetana, vedana, and sanna meant samphassa, abhisankhara, sancetana, samphassa-ja-vedana, and “distorted sanna” in most situations. However, Abhidhamma specifically makes that distinction.
- Only in a few suttas are the specific words in the latter set defined. But such suttas are in the Tipitaka, as Taryal pointed out.
- However, until Ariya explains them, the terminology is too confusing for others to figure out. Furthermore, one should be able to figure out whether vipaka vinnana or kamma vinnana (for example) applies in the given situation. That is why it is critical to not only be aware of those specific usages (janato) but to comprehend them (passato). See “Jānato Passato” and Ājāniya – Critical Words to Remember”
Getting into an anariya jhana means transcending the kama loka temporarily.
- However, unless those jhana cittas run continuously, a mind can “fall back” to kama loka in between jhana cittas. If the mind continuously generates jhana cittas, one is in a jhana samapatti.
- As a mind keeps ascending to higher jhana samapatti, it starts separating from the kama loka. That means it start dropping “bodily functions” at higher jhana samapatti.
That should explain the following I wrote above:
1. “Rahogata Sutta (SN 36.11)” : When in the first jhana samapatti, speech stops; in the second jhana samapatti, vitakka vicāra (i.e., vaci sankhara) stop; in the third jhana samapatti, pīti stops; in the fourth jhana samapatti, assāsapassāsā stops.
- Thus, it makes sense to equate assāsapassāsā there with breathing. Breathing stops while in the fourth jhana samapatti and the physical body is now kept alive by kammic energy.
- P.S. This explains how a yogi can “come out of the physical body” with the manomaya kaya (or gandhabba) while in the fourth jhana samapatti. All functions of the physical body stop, and one is like a rupa loka Brahma!
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Now, to address Lang’s question: “Let’s say that a person is in an anariya jhana samapatti, which means that during that time he is in a temporary rupavacara bhava.
Is the upadana paccaya bhava step still operating in this case? And if so is jhana the object of upadana?”
Yes. An anariya yogi‘s mind latches onto the mindset of the first jhana as soon as it transcends kama loka.
- However, there is no need to “upadana” a specific arammana to get to the first jhana. One can focus on a neutral object (one must also suppress all immoral and sensual thoughts) to transcend the kama loka, and it automatically latches onto the mindset of the first jhana.
- With practice, one can stay in the first jhana without dropping back to kama loka, and then one is in the first jhana samapatti.
A Sotapanna can transcend the kama loka permanently by eliminating kama raga and attaining the Anagami stage of Nibbana. That happens via cultivating Satipatthana/Anapanasati. The mind of an Anagami may or may not automatically get into the first jhana, which corresponds to the mindset of a Brahma in the first realm in the rupa loka. If the Anagami does not get into a jhana, his mind will stay at the “kama dhatu” stage and NEVER get to the “kama bhava.”
- There could be “panna vimutta” Arahants who have not cultivated jhana. Their minds will also stay at the “kama dhatu” stage and NEVER get to the “kama bhava,” “rupa bhava,” or even “arupa bhava.”
- These are not necessary things to learn. But it is good to have an idea.
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1. “Rahogata Sutta (SN 36.11)” : When in the first jhana samapatti, speech stops; in the second jhana samapatti, vitakka vicāra (i.e., vaci sankhara) stop; in the third jhana samapatti, pīti stops; in the fourth jhana samapatti, assāsapassāsā stops.
- “Cūḷavedalla Sutta (MN 44)“: “Assāsapassāsā kho, āvuso visākha, kāya saṅkhāro, vitakkavicārā vacīsaṅkhāro, saññā ca vedanā ca cittasaṅkhāro”ti.”
- This suggests that Assāsapassāsā = kāya saṅkhāra = breathing.
- (Note: The above verse applies only to jhana samapatti and NOT to jhana.)
2. However, “Ānāpānassati Sutta (MN 118):”kāye kāyānupassī, bhikkhave, tasmiṁ samaye bhikkhu viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṁ. Kāyesu kāyaññatarāhaṁ, bhikkhave, evaṁ vadāmi yadidaṁ—assāsapassāsā. “
- Here, assāsapassāsā = Kāyesu kāyaññatarāhaṁ (meaning “another kāya in kāya“).
- As I understand, “another kāya in kāya” here refers to ajjhatta/bahidda kāya at the beginning of a pancupadanakkhandha kāya. I have not yet discussed that concerning Anapanasati. But it is related to ajjhatta/bahidda vinnana , which we discussed.
3. I am not certain whether assāsapassāsā convey two different meanings in the two situations. I tend to think that there are two meanings: In the first case, breathing stops while one is in the fourth jhana samapatti. The meaning in the second case is entirely different.
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Taryal: “If an AI can resolve this issue so quickly, why aren’t the scholars able to do the same?”
- I have asked that question numerous times on this website and in discussion forums like Dhamma Wheel.
- P.S. See, for example, “Distortion of Pāli Keywords in Paṭicca Samuppāda.”
My tentative conclusions:
- It is possible that the translators have not read any of my posts. However, that cannot be entirely correct since Bhikkhu Dhammanado (who posted regularly at Dhamma Wheel) criticized my posts. He is a close friend of Bhikkhu Sujato, who has translated most of the suttas at Sutta Central, so it is quite likely that they had discussed my writings. That leads to the conclusion that they don’t have the capability for logical thinking. That is a harsh way to say it, but I don’t have any other explanation.
- As for the readers, most who commented at Dhamma Wheel (including its “moderators”) have the same issue. No logical thinking capability.
- However, there was a silver lining. Some people who initially criticized me stopped commenting altogether. I guess they understood at some point but were too “high-minded” to admit online that they had been ignorant to criticize my writings.
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Here is a sutta that discusses “hiri” and “ottappa” usually combined as “hirottappa.” “Hirīottappa Sutta (AN 7.65).”
- The English translation there translates those words as “lacking conscience” and “lacking prudence” but “shame of wrongdoing” and “fear of wrongdoing” are better translations.
- When we were growing up, these were the basics taught to us by our parents and teachers. Sadly, that is missing these days. Instead, teachers tend to focus on “sex education,” even for little kids!
P.S. Here is another relevant sutta: “Avijjā Sutta (SN 45.1)“
- “Avijjā, bhikkhave, pubbaṅgamā akusalānaṁ dhammānaṁ samāpattiyā, anvadeva ahirikaṁ anottappaṁ.” or “Ignorance precedes the attainment of immoral qualities, with lack of “shame of wrongdoing” and “fear of wrongdoing.“
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That is what I wrote at the end:
P.S. It could be better to write what I quoted above as follows: “One has expectations built up by accumulated kammic energy. However, such kammic energies can automatically bring arammana AND trigger a kamma vinnana to arise only if one has samyojana intact..”
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I wrote, “One has expectations built up by accumulated kammic energy. However, such kammic energies can automatically bring arammana only if one has samyojana intact..”
- What I meant can be explained with the following example.
- Angulimala killed 999 people and was ready to kill even his mother to get to the thousand, which was his goal. So, he had created a kamma vinnana with that expectation. But once meeting the Buddha, that kamma vinnana was nullified.
- The kammic energy created by his previous actions is still there in vinnana dhatu. But that specific arammana (to kill anyone and add another finger to his collection) would not arise in him ever again.
However, numerous random arammana can arise in anyone, including an Arahant.
- Arammana is a sensory input. As long as one has a physical body, it is subjected to various sensory inputs all day.
- But the difference is that an Arahant will not attach to any arammana, while anyone below that COULD attach to some of them.
This is why writing to explain a given concept can be tricky. I may be focused on describing a given aspect, which may give some a wrong impression.
P.S. It could be better to write what I quoted above as follows: “One has expectations built up by accumulated kammic energy. However, such kammic energies can automatically bring arammana AND trigger a kamma vinnana to arise only if one has samyojana intact..”
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Those would be kukkucca (worry, also feeling low); thīna (sloth, sluggishness); middha (torpor); vicikicchā (doubt arising from temptations).
- Please read the post and think about these things.
- Most people read a post in a few minutes and expect to understand the concepts. It is a good practice to take time and compare concepts from other posts, especially suggested posts with links. The mind is a complex entity. It takes time to understand how the mind works.
- In his case, I would suggest reading the “Calming the Mind” section.
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“But for an arahant with no samyojana left, are there no subconscious thoughts?”
- No. They don’t generate “subconscious stray thoughts” automatically. They don’t have any expectations in this world.
- However, they can recall anything if they need to. For example, to recognize someone, one must recall past interactions with that person. When Lady Visaka visits, the Buddha’s mind automatically recalls past interactions with her and recognizes her. There is no need to think about who she is consciously.
- But Buddha’s mind would not engage in defiled thoughts like how beautiful she is. There is no agitation of mind based on recalling who she is. No samyojanas exist in Buddha’s mind to trigger such “stray thoughts.”
P.S. I discussed some fundamental aspects in the following section: “Essential Abhidhamma – The Basics.”
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As Seng Kiat pointed out, those are Commentaries written by “anariya scholars” like H. C. Norman. They fall into the same category as many Pali-English dictionaries written by scholars like Rhys Davids.
- Many of them have mundane explanations. However, they are a good starting point. As one learns deeper Dhamma, one will start comprehending deeper meanings.
- See “Pāli Dictionaries – Are They Reliable?“
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Pathfinder: “What about the feeling after we know we did something wrong? (Remorse or guilt). Let’s say I stole money from someone. After doing that I feel guilty for what I have done, thinking how I could have harmed them etc.”
- You steal money with the arising of Ahirika (shamelessness) and Anottapa (fearlessness in the wrong), which are the asobhana cetasika that are the opposites of hiri (shame of wrong) and ottappa (fear of wrong).
- Once stealing (in that example), one’s mind becomes agitated, leading to feelings of guilt and remorse.
Hiri (shame of wrong) and ottappa (fear of wrong) are mental factors (cetasika) that need to be cultivated. One must see the drawbacks of Ahirika (shamelessness) and Anottapa (fearlessness in the wrong).
The post in question is “Cetasika (Mental Factors).”
Pathfinder: “Looking from the cetasika list it seems like guilt involves the “hiri” (shame of wrong) cetasika, eg ashamed that we stole something, which is sobhana cetasika.”
- That is not the way to look at it. When the “hiri” (shame of wrong) cetasika arises in a mind, one will abstain from wrongdoing. One would feel guilty only if one engaged in a wrong action.
It is better to say vipaka vinnana arises automatically due to accumulated kammic energy (residing in viññāṇa dhātu).
- In response to vipaka vinnana, the mind generates kamma vinnana (expectation of a certain outcome) leading to the accumulation of more kammic energy.
But I can see what your confusion is. One has expectations built up by accumulated kammic energy. However, such kammic energies can automatically bring arammana only if one has samyojana intact. As the number of samyojana goes down, the likelihood of kammic energies automatically bringing sensory inputs (arammana) will diminish.
- But recalling past events has nothing to do with kamma vinnana. All memories remain intact as “namagotta” and may be retrieved even by an Arahant with no samyojana left. For example, they may recall what happened last week but without any cravings (thus, they do not lead to new kamma vinnana).
- Therefore, an Arahant would not feel the urge to go see a movie or go to a restaurant to eat a tasty meal.
I think you may be thinking too hard again. Take a break and then review what was discussed up to now.
- It is easy to mix things up and get confused. I hope I did not unintentionally confuse you.
- If you still have issues unresolved, ask the remaining questions tomorrow. Take a break for now.
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” What I want to understand is how different kamma vinnanas can be in the background.”
I explained that recently in the thread “Sankhata and Nāmagotta.” See my comment on August 3, 2024 at 11:09 am.
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