[dosakkhayo]

1. A puñña kamma causing rebirth in rupa loka and arupa loka is ānantarika kamma. (case of the anāriya jhānā)

• So if a human cultivates rupa jhana or arupa samapatti, corresponding kammic energy is stored in rupa kamma bhava or arupa kamma bhava. Suppose they don’t lose their ability to enter a jhana or samapatti until they die (for example, do an apayagami kamma or achieve maggaphala with losing rupa raga or arupa raga). In that case, they must be reborn in corresponding Brahma loka at the next patisandhi moment.

2. Uppatti kamma bhava is the subset of kamma bhava. See Forum post #37727.

3. Paccuppanna means paccya + uppanna. Nothing happens if both hetu (root cause) and paccaya (proper condition) are not met.

–

My question: Does Brahma only die when they completely exhaust the kammic energy needed to maintain their manomaya kaya? Is there any other way that Brahma dies? I think it is not the only way. Let me tell you why I came to think this way.

• If Brahma only dies when they completely exhaust the kammic energy needed to maintain their manomaya kaya, then when a given satta is in kama loka, it means there are no kamma bhava in rupa or arupa bhava. Because satta will only be born in Kamaloka once it has exhausted all the energy in the Brahma realms.
• Suppose an Anagami is in kamaloka, who does not achieve any jhana or samapatti. So, if that assumption(Brahma only dies when they completely exhaust the kammic energy) is correct, there are no kamma bhava(hetu) in rupa and arupa bhava. If the Anagami died without further development, they would be born in Brahma loka which is reserved for Anagami.
• So they will have a manomaya kaya. And manomaya kaya is sankhata. All sankhata requires hetu and paccaya to arise. In this case, Anagami did not remove rupa raga samyojana and arupa raga samyojana, they met the proper paccaya for rebirth in Brahma realms. But the hetu, the kamma bhava was not prepared.

So, I think that if Brahma dies in Brahma loka and is reborn in kama loka, it does not mean that all kammic energy in rupa or arupa bhava is completely exhausted. Considering that uppatti kamma bhava is a subset of kamma bhava, there is no reason to think that uppatti kamma bhava‘s exhaustion is kamma bhava‘s exhaustion. So uppatti kamma bhava is not only a subset of kamma bhava but also a proper subset of kamma bhava.

• So I can’t tell whether my previous assumption is true or false. It is an acinteyya topic. Though, now I think that Brahma only dies when they completely exhaust the kammic energy needed to maintain their manomaya kaya. Because there is no questionable issue about kamma bhava.
• In fact, until yesterday, I was going to post a question, but I concluded while writing it in English. Still, I think it’s worth sharing with others, so I’m posting it.

 

[Lal]

1. The reasoning at the top (#1 through #3 are correct).

However, regarding #3: A Brahma birth (birth of the manomaya kaya of the anariya Brahma) happens at the patisandhi moment based on the conditions at that moment. 

• Once that sankhata (manomaya kaya of the anariya Brahma) is formed, it will exist until the kammic energy that led to it is exhausted. The exception is if the Brahma attains Arahanthood. Then that manomaya kaya will “burn,” i.e., the Brahma attains Parinibbana.
• The same goes for the Anagami. If the Anagami attains Arahanthood, Parinibbana will result, i.e., that existence will be terminated.

2. I hope that helps clarify the issue. Feel free to ask questions if it is not clear.

• There is no “left-over” kammic energy (in that Brahma bhava) for a Brahma once his lifetime ends. 
• He will be reborn human, and if he needs to get back to the Brahma realm, he will have to cultivate jhana again.
• “Brahma kammic energy” falls under ” ānantarika,” meaning energy is NOT held in reserve. Any energy existing MUST bring vipaka without delay.
• Of course, the human physical body can withstand an  ānantarika kamma. That is why a yogi with a jhana will not be reborn right away in a Brahma realm. But when the physical body dies, he will be instantly born a Brahma.

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Jittananto

[dosakkhayo]

Lal said: There is no “left-over” kammic energy (in that Brahma bhava) for a Brahma once his lifetime ends.

OK. Now I look at this problem in another way. Maybe the problem is that I had supposed the hetu of both the anariya Brahma realm and the ariya Brahma realm are in the same category.

 

The rebirth process runs only by Akusala mula PS. So kusala kamma can not be the hetu. And there is no need to cultivate jhana or samapatti to be born in Suddhāvāsā. Because even if Anagami didn’t cultivate jhana or samapatti, if rupa raga samyojana remained, he/she would be born in Suddhāvāsā. So the hetu of the rebirth in the Suddhāvāsā Brahma realm is not equivalent to the hetu of the rebirth in the Anariya Brahma realm.

 

Suddhāvāsā is inside of samsara. And their manomaya kaya is sankhata. Then, what is the hetu of the rebirth in the Suddhāvāsā Brahma realm? Is it kamma bhava? If so, as a logical consequence, it must belong to rupa kamma bhava. If so again, the difference between the hetu of the rebirth in the Suddhāvāsā Brahma realm and the hetu of the rebirth in the Anariya Brahma realm should be clarified. Because it may mean that a certain rupa bhava can be made in another way without cultivating jhana.

[Lal]

Dosakkhayo wrote: “The rebirth process runs only by Akusala mula PS. So kusala kamma can not be the hetu.”

1. Any birth in this world (including any Brahma or Anagami) is due to avijja.

• Only an Arahant is free of all akusala. That is another way of saying only Arahants are entirely free of avijja.

2. The Buddha described only Paticca Samuppada (PS.) In the Sutta Pitaka there is no mention of “kusala-mula” or “akusala-mula” PS.

• PS leads to “temporary existences” within a life (one can act like an animal under some conditions.) Births (uppatti) in other realms can also be described within the same PS. 

3. If anyone can find any reference to “kusala-mula” or “akusala-mula” PS within the Sutta Pitaka, please let me know.

• The only place within the Tipitaka that mentions those words is the “Vibhanga Pakarana,” a Commentary. That also does not explain in detail. 
• Even though I wrote about “kusala-mula” or “akusala-mula” PS in the early years, especially in the past year, I realized that breaking PS into various categories is unnecessary.
• As we have seen in the recent posts (see, for example, #15 of “Purāna and Nava Kamma – Sequence of Kamma Generation”), even the separation as Avyākata Paṭicca Samuppāda and Akusala-Mula Paṭicca Samuppāda processes is just one process that is broken into two parts as purāna and nava kamma stages.
• The main sutta that describes PS is “Mahānidāna Sutta (DN 15).” Then, there is a series of suttas starting with the “Paṭiccasamuppāda Sutta (SN 12.1).”
• While other suttas refer to PS, I have seen no mention of “kusala-mula” or “akusala-mula” PS in any of those suttas either. That is because all rebirths can be explained with PS (see #1).

4. Any  Brahma is born in a Brahma realm because he had cultivated abhisankhara corresponding to that realm.

• An Anagami is born in a Suddhāvāsā Brahma realm because he still has avijja left to that extent.
• All rebirths are due to PS starting with “avijjā paccayā saṅkhāra.”
• An Arahant is not reborn in any realm because he has removed all avijja/anusaya/samyojana.
• I will rewrite/revise some relevant posts when I get the time.

 

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dosakkhayo

[dosakkhayo]

OK. I think your answer is enough for me now. What I needed was not the answer to the question, but your convincing attitude, though I didn’t know it when I asked the question. I didn’t mean to test you impolitely. If I asked you in the wrong manner, I sincerely apologize. And thank you for your service.

With metta

[Lal]

Everything is fine.

• It takes time to sort out specific, deeper, issues. 
• Things become clear as we progress. That has been true for me. 
• Since we don’t have the Buddha or any Arahants, we need to figure out things as we proceed. Many concepts have been distorted over many centuries.

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dosakkhayo

[Tobias G]

Now I understand, Lal. If we look at Vb 6, we see that only in the first section Suttantabhājanīya is the PS mentioned (starts with “Avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā…”). Then come sections with causes/conditions (paccaya, hetu, sampayutta, aññamañña), as well as various akusala citta and kusala citta. But the terms “akusala-mula PS” or “kusala-mula PS” are not mentioned. Thus, “paṭicca samuppāda” always means the process that leads to rebirth (even within one lifetime).

[Lal]

Tobias G: “Thus, “paṭicca samuppāda” always means the process that leads to rebirth (even within one lifetime).”

Yes, Tobias. More information in “Paṭicca Samuppāda During a Lifetime“

[gopinadh]

Sir I submit two questions, and request for kind comments from Seniors here,  when having time:

1:  Sir,  in Sn 1.1:  Ogha-tarana Sutta: Crossing over the Flood, link to sutta the Lord is questioned and answers as follows:

But how, dear sir, did you cross over the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place?” <Lords Reply>:- “When I pushed forward, I was whirled about. When I stayed in place, I sank. And so I crossed over the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place.”

If  paticca samuppada is taken as a flood of becoming(bhava), how is the reply given by the Lord in the above Sutta to be properly understood?

2: Is there room and place for inner transformation in Dhamma? Not in the sense of becoming something more, but a qualitative transformation. For instance, the example given by Lal sir of  Mundane Sila becoming Ariyakanta Sila, when one understands Four Noble Truths/Tilakkhana/Paticca Samuppada is an example of such qualitative transformation/change/shift.

In paticca samputpada cycle, or in  the framework built with  allied concepts such as Punna kamma, Kusala Kamma, Rupa and Arupa Bhavas etc  where does such qualitative transformation in an individual and his life come in,  and to what extent? Is it limited to the scope of doing punna and getting good births till kamma bhava’s potency zeroes to produce any further upapatthi? Like an vending machine which gives you a chips packet or a biscuit packet or a drink commensurate  with the money you deposit inside? for instance I do jhana now, the machine will throw out  brahma bhava next? Like that. Or does it run deeper , where in , such concepts are not the end in themselves and are perhaps offshoots of panna and should always be combined and studied as such with  the bigger picture and not as silos? Discussed as silos it becomes very difficult for beginners like me to get a wholistic understanding.   what constitutes such wholistic framework(broadly at one place)?  

Regards sir.

[Lal]

1. Here is another translation with the Pali: “Oghataraṇa Sutta (SN 1.1).”

• This short sutta has deep meanings regarding how a puthujjana is kept away from Nibbana. In many suttas, attaining Nibbana is compared to crossing an ocean/river/flood and going from this shore (this world) to the further shore (Nibbana.) 
• A puthujjana attaches to a sensory input in two stages, explained as upaya/upadana or, equivalently, “purana kamma“/”nava kamma” stages. For example, a puthujjana in the human realm first “lands (patiṭṭha) on kama bhava” and then “grasps that arammana (āyūhaṁ) at the upadana stage.”
• One who lands in the stream (flood) sinks to the bottom; if he grasps a floating object, he will be swept away by the stream (flood). 
• The Deva asked, “How did you cross the flood”? and the Buddha answered, “By neither landing nor grasping to something (that was floating), I crossed the flood.” 
• The two stages are discussed in the posts “Upaya and Upādāna – Two Stages of Attachment” and “Purāna and Nava Kamma – Sequence of Kamma Generation“

2. I don’t understand the second question. 

Your statement, “..Mundane Sila becoming Ariyakanta Sila, when one understands Four Noble Truths/Tilakkhana/Paticca Samuppada is an example of such qualitative transformation/change/shift” explains everything. 

• Mundane Sila becomes Ariyakanta Sila when one understands the Buddha’s worldview (i.e., gets rid of sakkaya ditthi and the other two associated samyojana) and becomes a Sotapanna. 
• But one has not yet put it into practice. 
• When one gets rid of kama raga (comprehending “distorted sanna” can help a lot here), one can become Sakadagami/Anagami. 
• The last five samyojana are removed at the Arahant stage.
• They all involve understanding the Four Noble Truths/Tilakkhana/Paticca Samuppada at increasingly deeper levels.

[Tobias G]

Lal said:

• The Deva asked, “How did you cross the flood”? and the Buddha answered, “By neither landing nor grasping to something (that was floating), I crossed the flood.” 

 

What means “landing” in relation to kama dhatu, kama sanna, kama sankappa…? I guess it is the purana kamma stage. But how can the Bodhisatta avoid kama dhatu (with kama sanna)? 

[Lal]

Tobias: “What means “landing” in relation to kama dhatu, kama sanna, kama sankappa…? I guess it is the purana kamma stage.”

• That is correct.

Tobias: “But how can the Bodhisatta avoid kama dhatu (with kama sanna)? “

• He could not/did not avoid it. As we discussed, even the Buddha or an Arahant also experiences the kama sanna (e.g., sweetness of sugar). Anyone born with a human body would automatically get the kama sanna because it comes with the “uppatti bhavanga.” 
• So, they all go through the kama dhatu and kama sanna stages, but NOT to the kama sankappa stage.
• The Buddha or an Arahant would still be in the kama dhatu but NOT in kama bhava. The Bodhisatta was in kama bhava, but he overcame it during the Enlightenment.
• That is explained in “Recovering the Suffering-Free Pure Mind“. After that, we discussed purana kamma and nava kamma. See the sequence of posts in “Is There a “Self”?” Then we moved to the “Sotapanna Stage via Understanding Perception (Saññā).” section.
• Maybe I should list all those in the new “Buddha Dhamma – Advanced” section so that we have the whole sequence of posts in one place. 

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Tobias G

[gopinadh]

<br />
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[Lal]

gopinadh: Not quite.

• A puñña kamma is a meritorious/good action that CAN lead to rebirth in the higher realms. See “Rebirths Take Place According to Abhisaṅkhāra”
• Engaging in kusala kamma leads to Nibbāna. 
• The difference is understanding the fruitlessness/dangers of remaining in the rebirth process, i.e., getting rid of sakkaya ditthi.
• In the same way, there is a difference between mundane metta, karuna, muduta, upekkha (bhavana), and the Noble versions of them after getting rid of sakkaya ditthi.

See “Kilesa – Relationship to Akusala, Kusala, and Puñña Kamma.”

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gopinadh, Yash RS

[gopinadh]

[Lal]

Yes. The central theme is correct.

• We can also think of it as follows, starting with an arammana (sensory input): We attach ( with tanha) to the arammana , expecting it to provide more happiness. That attachment culminates in upadana (pulling it close our mind with stronger attachment or “tanha paccaya upadana“), and we generate abhisankhara (kammic energy) by acting with avijja (“avijja paccaya sankhara.”)
• That kammic energy brings future rebirths.
• That is how the whole process goes on and on forever.

2(b) above in not correct.

• Engaging in punna kamma is essential to make the possibility of future rebirths in “good realms” and to avoid rebirths in apayas. See, for example, “Sumana Sutta (AN 5.31).”
• Also see #6 of “Rebirths Take Place According to Abhisaṅkhāra.”
• However, one must realize that engaging in punna kamma, by itself, is not enough to stop future suffering. One must convert punna kamma to kusala kamma by comprehending 4NT/PS/Tilakkhana.

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gopinadh, Yash RS

[gopinadh]

Ariyaratna Sir, thank you.I would like to briefly revise,  what I could learn from this post:

What I wanted to Know:

If PS is  seen as a flood between two banks, anyone wanting to reach the other shore,  can neither afford to simply plunge in nor  try swim against the force of the current to reach the other side. How would one cross it, if PS is a fixed, arcane cycle with everything set and included within it?, meaning  no matter what one does , the outcomes are within the cycle &  its “flow”.   Plunging/plainly landing in – would mean “kamasukha allika anuyogo”, and swimming against it would be “attakilamatha anuyogo”.

Answers I found upon reflecting on Lal Sirs answers and giving time:

The simile of the flood , I think,  is exactly,  meant to wake us up to the impossible situation we are caught in. in other words there is no solution  to it in terms of routine logic. Mundane Logic which is driven by either one of the two extremes of “kamasukha allika anuyogo” or “attakilamatha anuyogo” does not include the answer. What’s required perhaps,  is a less intoxicated and out of the box solution which is “majjima patipada”.

In this Transcendental Logic (majjima patipada) one first realizes of the impossible situation He or She is caught in(vipassana),  along with the realization that there is a certain “Space” (samatha) from which He is  able to so correctly see (samma ditthi). That is,  both  vipassana and samatha.

There is only one Bank , the one on which He was always standing or could ever hope to go,  which is his own “Pure Mind”- which provides the “space” (samma ditthi) to rightly see the fact (dukka sacca/PS).

Turning it the other way round , with Samma Ditthi one has in-fact started to tune into the Pure Mind (Nibbana). The “flood”  or “waters” have started to still!. From there on,  Kamma (Punna or Kusala)  help to completely still these waters (or help achieve re-births , progressively, which are more attuned to Nibbana(Pure Mind)). 

Doing Good can be enjoyed just for the sake of it (ex: Karuna-Samatha) and can also be enjoyed for constituting the correct practice(vipassana). 

PS:

These observations  could generate overlapping questions (idealism, atta bava etc etc , especially when we use words like “pure mind” , but I assure you these are not my intentions and I am looking at the present concern,  psychologically).  But even these apprehensions too, I believe,  can be answered , but that requires working out and presenting a more broader  philosophy,  which is not required here and now and more importantly, which  I am not capable of.

That’s it from my side sir.  Kindly correct if required. I would like to humbly thank Dosakkhayo, Tobias G, Yash RS for starting this post, taking part  and chipping in with wonderful insights.

Have a good day sirs. Kindly correct/improve /add that might be required.

[Lal]

This is a deeper issue, as I pointed out in my earlier on May 14, 2024 at 8:33 pm (post # 49756). The following is what I stated there:

1. Here is another translation with the Pali: “Oghataraṇa Sutta (SN 1.1).”

• This short sutta has deep meanings regarding how a puthujjana is kept away from Nibbana. In many suttas, attaining Nibbana is compared to crossing an ocean/river/flood and going from this shore (this world) to the further shore (Nibbana.) 
• A puthujjana attaches to a sensory input in two stages, explained as upaya/upadana or, equivalently, “purana kamma“/”nava kamma” stages. For example, a puthujjana in the human realm first “lands (patiṭṭha) on kama bhava” and then “grasps that arammana (āyūhaṁ) at the upadana stage.”
• One who lands in the stream (flood) sinks to the bottom; if he grasps a floating object, he will be swept away by the stream (flood). 
• The Deva asked, “How did you cross the flood”? and the Buddha answered, “By neither landing nor grasping to something (that was floating), I crossed the flood.” 
• The two stages are discussed in the posts “Upaya and Upādāna – Two Stages of Attachment” and “Purāna and Nava Kamma – Sequence of Kamma Generation“

_________

You are referring to the main point of “For example, a puthujjana in the human realm first “lands (patiṭṭha) on kama bhava” and then “grasps that arammana (āyūhaṁ) at the upadana stage.”

• This needs to be done in two stages: First, one stops grasping arammana (āyūhaṁ) at the upadana stage. In particular, one stops doing immoral deeds. That happens at the Sotapanna stage. Then, one starts working on the second step, trying to comprehend the deeper aspects of the Four Noble Truths/Tilakkhana/Paticca Samuppada.
• That second step is to avoid “landing (patiṭṭha) in kama bhava” and attain the Anagami stage.

When one is free of the rebirths in the kama loka, then that process needs to be repeated to get released from the rupa loka and arupa loka. P.S. That can happen after the Anagami stage.

• Therefore, first focus on attaining the Sotapanna stage by getting rid of sakkaya ditthi, i.e., realizing the unfruitfulness/dangers of attaching to things in this world. 
• As I mentioned many times, understanding “distorted sanna” helps in all those steps, but that approach may be too difficult for those who do not have enough background. For example, one could start with the “Paṭicca Samuppāda” section. You can review the subsections and pick which subsections/posts are suitable.
• The key to making progress is to start at a point where one understands most of a post but gets stuck in some issues. At that point, one should quote that post and ask questions to get those issues resolved. It is pointless to start at an advanced post or section.

I don’t think most people have spent enough time seriously contemplating the series of posts I mentioned in my reply to Tobias in my later comment.  

__________

The following is that exchange:

Tobias: “What means “landing” in relation to kama dhatu, kama sanna, kama sankappa…? I guess it is the purana kamma stage.”

• That is correct.

Tobias: “But how can the Bodhisatta avoid kama dhatu (with kama sanna)? “

• He could not/did not avoid it. As we discussed, even the Buddha or an Arahant also experiences the kama sanna (e.g., sweetness of sugar). Anyone born with a human body would automatically get the kama sanna because it comes with the “uppatti bhavanga.” 
• So, they all go through the kama dhatu and kama sanna stages, but NOT to the kama sankappa stage.
• The Buddha or an Arahant would still be in the kama dhatu but NOT in kama bhava. The Bodhisatta was in kama bhava, but he overcame it during the Enlightenment.
• That is explained in “Recovering the Suffering-Free Pure Mind“. After that, we discussed purana kamma and nava kamma. See the sequence of posts in “Is There a “Self”?” Then we moved to the “Sotapanna Stage via Understanding Perception (Saññā).” section.

________________

Note: Please avoid using bright red to highlight sentences. That color is hard on the eyes!

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gopinadh

[gopinadh]

1. Sirs,  i missed out GAD… kindly forgive.

      2. Sir , noted and will avoid brighter colors, will also try and go through the links carefully and get back if any doubts.  

      3.  I recognize that this is an advanced topic , therefore its my bad , for  asking doubts without going through the basics given here  and first understanding them –  this i will try and avoid in the future  as well. I am thinking i better avoid these topics as they seem very far away from what , at my level, I  understand “practise” to be.

 I would also like to make it clear  and submit,  that  I was thrown into thinking on these things which  I posted or drew(in my effort to articulate) ,   because I wondered how learning a Brahma Dies , and what happens to His Kamma ,  helps one in his or her day to day practise.   

Because at my level,  I see disorder and inner conflict, I see a great blindness in my life , which snuffles out joy and happiness  and these things challenge me. These demand quite a lot of sincerety and intensity at my level , therefore I  might not relate to such questions , and definitely also because iam yet to strongly grasp the basics. That is all Sirs. 

    Anyway, thanks Sir(s) once again for your pateince. Bear with me sirs , bear with me.

[Author]

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