[Jorg]

Theruwan Saranayi,

I would like to ask a question regarding a part of a sermon delivered by Waharaka Thero as posted on YouTube by වහරක ථේර වරුණ Waharaka Théra Waruna  (linked to appropriate timestamp).

He mentions steps from paticca samupadda starting with kusala-mula paccaya sankhara. However, then he continues with vinnana, namarupa, salayatana, phassa, vedana, tanha and upadana.

Is he referring to pasāda and adhimokkha as described in the kusala-mula PS?

[LayDhammaFollower]

Many people are attached to ideas, concepts and knowledge. So, that is also attachement to dhamma rūpa.

So, there can be taṇhā (attachement to Buddha dhamma for example) and upādāna (keeping dhamma close in mind).

Saḷāyatana might mean using sense faculties for seeking Dhamma and Buddha. One might be deliberately using ears to search for and hear dhamma sermons or might search for dhamma related books through eyes.

I heard the sermon, this is what I understand.

Lal can comment based on sinhala audio and subtitles.

[Lal]

Jorg: Can you give the time on the video where “tanha and upadana” are mentioned regarding the Kusala-Mula PS? 

You asked, “Is he referring to pasāda and adhimokkha as described in the kusala-mula PS?”

• He must be. May be the translator made a mistake. I don’t think Waharaka Thero would.

Yes. LDM’s comments are correct too. 

• Even in the Kusala-Mula PS, the sense faculties must be used as “āyatana” and not just sense faculties. If only sense faculties are used, there is no CONSCIOUS thinking involved.

The process is explained in “Kusala-Mula Paṭicca Samuppāda.”

• In #5: ““kusala-mūla paccayā saṅkhāro, saṅkhāra paccayā viññāṇaṃ, viññāṇa paccayā nāmarupaṃ, nāmarupa paccayā salāyatanaṃ, salāyatana paccayā phasso, phassa paccayā vedanā, vedanā paccayā pasādo, pasāda paccayā adhimokkho, adhimokkha paccayā bhavo, bhava paccayā jāti, jāti paccayā jarā maraṇaṃ. Evametesaṃ dhammānaṃ samudayo hoti.“

P.S. May 6, 2023: I have revised the post “Kusala-Mula Paṭicca Samuppāda” to add #6 as below.

6. In the above verse, “dhammānaṃ samudayo hoti” refers to four types of “special dhammā“ that arise due to the Kusala-Mūla PS process.  

• As we discussed in the post, “What are Rūpa? – Dhammā are Rūpa too!” dhammā means “to bear things in this world.” When one cultivates the Noble Path as an Ariya (Noble Person), one attains four stages magga phala: Sotapanna, Sakadāgāmi, Anāgāmi, and Arahant. 
• Dhammā referred to in the above verse are those that “bear” those four magga phala.

[Jorg]

Thanks for the responses. The link starts at the 1-minute mark. Then Waharaka Thero starts talking about it, going through the PS steps.

[Lal]

OK. The Thero did say that, but it must be a slip-up. 

• Does he continue to explain it that way? May be I need to watch the whole video.
• If it is Kusala-Mula PS, the terms should be pasāda and adhimokkha and NOT  tanha and upadana.

[Jorg]

What I remember is that he says it is this “upadana” that should not be given up. It would be like rowing a boat and suddenly throwing away the paddles before having reached the shore. That would be unwise. Only when one fully reaches the shore (become an arahant) one lets go. What we first need to give up is the upadana for apunna abhisankhara.

[Lal]

The use of the words taṇhā and upādāna in the Kusala-Mula PS is not wrong, even though the words pasāda and adhimokkha are traditionally used.

• Even though some English texts translate taṇhā as “craving” (implying a defiled mind), the word taṇhā implies a neutral sense.  It means getting fused or strongly attached. The word taṇhā comes from “thán” meaning “place” + “hā” meaning getting fused/welded or attached (හා වීම in Sinhala). 
• In the same way, “upādāna” (“upa” + “ādana” or “pulling close to the mind) has a neutral connotation.
• When I discuss the PS processes involving inert objects, I will show that a tree’s roots get “attached” to the soil to extract water and nutrients. The word taṇhā and upādāna are used there as well.

However, in the “Paṭiccasamuppādavibhaṅga” the words pasāda and adhimokkha are specifically used in Kusala-Mula PS.

2 users thanked author for this post.

namo0804, dosakkhayo

[Lal]

Per my comment #44650 above:

I have revised that comment. I am copying and pasting the relevant section from that comment:

• Even in the Kusala-Mula PS, the sense faculties must be used as “āyatana” and not just sense faculties. If only sense faculties are used, there is no CONSCIOUS thinking involved.

The process is explained in “Kusala-Mula Paṭicca Samuppāda.”

• In #5: ““kusala-mūla paccayā saṅkhāro, saṅkhāra paccayā viññāṇaṃ, viññāṇa paccayā nāmarupaṃ, nāmarupa paccayā salāyatanaṃ, salāyatana paccayā phasso, phassa paccayā vedanā, vedanā paccayā pasādo, pasāda paccayā adhimokkho, adhimokkha paccayā bhavo, bhava paccayā jāti, jāti paccayā jarā maraṇaṃ. Evametesaṃ dhammānaṃ samudayo hoti.“

P.S. May 6, 2023: I have revised the post “Kusala-Mula Paṭicca Samuppāda” to add #6 as below.

6. In the above verse, “dhammānaṃ samudayo hoti” refers to four types of “special dhammā“ that arise due to the Kusala-Mūla PS process.  

• As we discussed in the post, “What are Rūpa? – Dhammā are Rūpa too!” dhammā means “to bear things in this world.” When one cultivates the Noble Path as an Ariya (Noble Person), one attains four stages magga phala: Sotapanna, Sakadāgāmi, Anāgāmi, and Arahant. 
• Dhammā referred to in the above verse are those that “bear” those four magga phala.

 

[cubibobi]

Kusala-Mula PS is directed toward Nibbana. In this context, can chanda — as in Satara Iddhipada — be another substitute for upadana?

My mind has been strongly conditioned to link tanha and upadana to Akusala-Mula PS. We now learn that they are neutral words, but it will take time to shake that off.

Thank you.
Lang

[Lal]

Yes. Chanda Iddhipada can be taken as “upadana” for Nibbana.

• However, kāmacchanda is connected to craving. Kāmacchanda comes from kāma + iccha + anda, or “being blinded by sense attractions.” Here, “icchā” is liking, and “anda” is blind.

“My mind has been strongly conditioned to link tanha and upadana to Akusala-Mula PS. We now learn that they are neutral words, but it will take time to shake that off.”

• Yes. That is true for many. That is why it is good to connect to “pada nirutti,” I explained above.

[Jorg]

In #5: ““kusala-mūla paccayā saṅkhāro, saṅkhāra paccayā viññāṇaṃ, viññāṇa paccayā nāmarupaṃ, nāmarupa paccayā salāyatanaṃ, salāyatana paccayā phasso, phassa paccayā vedanā, vedanā paccayā pasādo, pasāda paccayā adhimokkho, adhimokkha paccayā bhavo, bhava paccayā jāti, jāti paccayā jarā maraṇaṃ. Evametesaṃ dhammānaṃ samudayo hoti.

Lal, in the commentary (Paṭiccasamuppādavibhaṅga) I can not see the part in red, only the following:

“kusalamūlapaccayā saṅkhāro, saṅkhārapaccayā viññāṇaṁ, viññāṇapaccayā nāmaṁ, nāmapaccayā chaṭṭhāyatanaṁ, chaṭṭhāyatanapaccayā phasso phassapaccayā vedanā, vedanāpaccayā adhimokkho, adhimokkhapaccayā bhavo, bhavapaccayā jāti, jātipaccayā jarāmaraṇaṁ. Evametassa kevalassa dukkhakkhandhassa samudayo hoti. 

Is this pre-vaci sankhara?

 

[Lal]

That is a bit complicated. 

The standard PS cycle can be analyzed as the result of 16 sub-cycles! That is actually what happens WITHIN  a javana citta. Only a Buddha can “see” that process; we can only see that it must be true. It is a complex analysis. 

There was a discussion on it sometime back: “kusala mula PS leads not to rebirth.”

• In a comment on May 27, 2022, at 8:27 pm (#37674) I discussed that briefly.
• So, the verse you quoted above describes one of the earlier steps in the 16-cycle process. I quoted it above without realizing it.
• It is not necessary to go through that analysis.

1 user thanked author for this post.

Jorg

[Jorg]

In the following sermon – ඉහාත්ම සුඛ විහරණය සහ ආනාපානසතිය | With English Subtitles (starting at 11:05) –Waharaka Thero does indeed address the pasado and adhimokko steps.

However, I’d like to raise awareness to two other points from that sermon:

1. Starting at the 11:05 mark, Venerable Waharaka states that, until death, an Arahant follows the kusala-mula PS (based on alobha, adosa, amoha). Then, starting at 13:43 he includes āneñjābhisaṅkhāra

2. He proceeds to speak about āneñjābhisaṅkhāra for about five minutes until the 18:00 mark.

A quick summary based on the subtitles (For full context please check the video!):

• He says āneñjābhisaṅkhāra are kammically neutral.
• A listener mentions that āneñjābhisaṅkhāra are usually related to the arupa realms to which Waharaka Thero responds that cannot be the case because Arahants still do āneñjābhisaṅkhāra and won’t be reborn in the arupa realms.
• The reason it’s called āneñjābhisaṅkhāra is because, in the past, yogis believed the arupa realms were the ultimate solace and they wouldn’t be reborn anymore.
• The arupa saṅkhāra may be called āneñjābhisaṅkhāra because of their lack of knowledge but are in fact puññābhisaṅkhāra.

To my understanding an Arahant does only perform Kriya, which are the kammically neutral actions. He also does not initiate a Kusala-Mula PS.
Āneñjābhisaṅkhāra are part of abhisaṅkhāra as is also mentioned in Paṭiccasamuppādavibhaṅga.

Either this is an older sermon, the subtitles are incomplete, or I’m missing something else entirely?

1 user thanked author for this post.

namo0804

[Lal]

Very good, Jorg. You caught one of the very few instances where Wharaka Thero stated something not quite right. That is one of the early discourses, and I had also noticed that.

1. An Arahant does not follow either kusala-mula PS or akusala-mula PS. That was a misstatement.

2. According to “pada nirutti” āneñjābhisaṅkhāra are kammically neutral; thus, in that sense, āneñjābhisaṅkhāra are kammically neutral. However, the term ” āneñjābhisaṅkhāra” for the “arupavacara samapatti” got stuck even during the time of the Buddha.

• I explained that in #3 of “Sankhāra, Kamma, Kamma Bīja, Kamma Vipāka.” Let me reproduce that below.

3. Abhisaṅkhāra are three kinds, as mentioned above:

• Some actions lead to bad consequences during life and also to bad rebirths in the four lowest realms (apāyā). These are “apunnābhi saṅkhāra” or immoral deeds: apuñña abhi sañ khāra.
• Actions that lead to good consequences in life and also to good rebirths are called “punnābhi saṅkhāra” or meritorious deeds; these lead to birth in good realms (human, deva, and the rūpa lōkas), thus avoiding rebirth in bad realms where one could get trapped for many eons. Thus it is important to accumulate punnābhi saṅkhāra: puñña abhi sañ khāra.
• When one cultivates “lōkiya jhānā” or mundane higher meditative states (arūpa jhāna leading to rebirth in the highest four arūpa lōka realms), via breath meditation, for example, one can be reborn in the four higher Brahma worlds. These also prolong sansāra, and are called “āneñjābhi saṅkhāra“: āneñja abhi sañ khāra.
• It is interesting to note that “āneñja” means “no more rebirths” and thus “permanent”: the ancient yogis (including Alara Kalama and Uddakarama Putta) thought these realms have infinite lifetimes and equated the births there to the “ultimate release.” Of course, the Buddha discovered that those also have finite lifetimes, even though extremely long, lasting eons (billions of years). That is how the term came to be associated (incorrectly) with “āneñjābhi saṅkhāra.” But that is how it is used even in the Tipiṭaka.  “Paṭiccasamuppāda Vibhaṅga” explains the step “avijjā paccayā saṅkhāra” as, “Tattha katame avijjā paccayā saṅkhārā? Puññābhisaṅkhāro, apuññābhisaṅkhāro, āneñjābhisaṅkhāro.”
• Here those yogis can temporarily suppress all desires for kāma lōka and rupa lōka existences. However, since they had not comprehended the anicca nature, they still have “hidden avijjā” or “avijjā anusaya.”

In later discourses, Waharaka Thero explained the above regarding āneñjābhisaṅkhāra. 

P.S. Also see “Rebirths Take Place According to Abhisaṅkhāra.”

2 users thanked author for this post.

namo0804, Jorg

[Author]

Posts