[Lal]

I am transferring the following two comments from Gad (and my answer to one of them) that were under an incorrect forum for this subject. 

• Before asking a question, please take the time to look at the various forum topics and select the most relevant forum for the question.

Gad: “I have a question about the sila of a sotapanna. A sotapanna remove the actions who lead to the apayas. Is that mean that a sotapanna cannot break any of the 5 preceptes ? His sila is perfect ?

My answer:

It is possible for a Sotapanna to break the five precepts. 

• See “Myths about the Sotāpanna Stage.”
• You may want to read the section “Sōtapanna Stage of Nibbāna” to learn more about the Sotapanna stage.

 

Gad’s follow-up question: 

I read it. If i understand clarly the Sotapanna can’t do a apayagami act like killing his parents hurt a Lord Buddha, divide the samgha and kill a arahant.

So sir what about cheating on his partner , kill someone, stealing, lying ?? Those actions don’t necesserily lead someone in the apayas. He can do that or it is impossible for him or her?

 

[Lal]

1. Kamma and their vipaka (consequences) is a complex subject. 

• The Buddha advised us not to try to analyze how they work. It is a subject fully comprehensible only to a Buddha.
• See “Acinteyya Sutta (AN 4.77).” There the Buddha lists four subjects that are not fully comprehensible by average humans. One of them is: “Kammavipāko, bhikkhave, acinteyyo, na cintetabbo;” OR “The results of kamma cannot be comprehended by average humans.”

2. However, the Buddha has given some general guidelines in several suttas. For example, see “Mahākammavibhaṅga Sutta (MN 136)” and “Cūḷakammavibhaṅga Sutta (MN 135)“

3. Regarding a Sotapanna: A Sotapanna is unlikely to engage in any akusala kamma unless it becomes unavoidable. 

• For example, it is highly unlikely that a Sotapanna will willingly steal, lie, or engage in immoral actions, let alone kill a human. But there are situations where an immoral action may be unavoidable. It is only an Arahant who will NEVER be able to engage in immoral actions.
• The six actions are those that a Sotapanna will NEVER be able to commit for any reason.

4. The following posts may be helpful:

“The Five Precepts – What the Buddha Meant by Them”
“How to Evaluate Weights of Different Kamma”
“What is Kamma? – Is Everything Determined by Kamma?”

“Kusala and Akusala Kamma, Punna and Pāpa Kamma”
“Ten Immoral Actions (Dasa Akusala)”
Punna Kamma – Dāna, Sīla, Bhāvanā

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Jittananto

[Jittananto]

Thank you Sir Lal 🙏🏿

[Jittananto]

I found a sutta that said exactly what Mr. Lal means. I don’t know if he had already posted this sutta in one of these articles.

Snp 2.1 Ratana Sutta: Jewels Discourse

9. Ye ariyasaccāni vibhāvayanti

Gambhīrapaññena sudesitāni

Kiñcāpi te honti bhusappamattā

Na te bhavaṁ aṭṭhamaṁ ādiyanti

Idam’pi Saṅghe ratanaṁ paṇītaṁ

Etena saccena suvatthi hotu

Those who comprehend the Noble Truths, well taught by the Buddha of profound wisdom, no matter how negligent, would not take an eighth existence. In the Saṅgha is this precious jewel. By this truth, may there be well-being!

10. Sahāva’ssa dassana sampadāya

Tayassu dhammā jahitā bhavanti

Sakkāyadiṭṭhi vicikicchitañ ca

Sīlabbataṁvā’pi yadatthi kiñci

Catūhapāyehi ca vippamutto,

Cha cābhiṭhānāni abhabbo kātuṁ

Idampi Saṅghe ratanaṁ paṇītaṁ

Etena saccena suvatthi hotu

For one who has attained the correct view, three fetters are abandoned: self-centered view, doubt, and clinging to wrong practices. Freed from the four planes of misery, he cannot commit the six major wrong-doings that lead to hell. In the Saṅgha is this precious jewel. By this truth, may there be well-being!

11. Kiñcā’pi so kammaṁ karoti pāpakaṁ

Kāyena vācā uda cetasā vā

Abhabbo so tassa paṭicchādāya

Abhabbatā diṭṭha padassa vuttā

Idampi Saṅghe ratanaṁ paṇītaṁ

Etena saccena suvatthi hotu

Though he might do some evil deed by body, speech, or mind, he cannot hide it; such is impossible for one who has seen the Dhamma. In the Saṅgha is this precious jewel. By this truth, may there be well-being!

 

 

 

 

[Lal]

I have not translated the Ratana Sutta.  But your post has a good enough description. Thank you!

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Jittananto

[dosakkhayo]

Ven. Lal, if it would not be too much trouble for you, could you create a post containing the detailed interpretation of the Ratana Sutta by Waharaka Thero, if such content exists?

 

[Lal]

OK. I will try to do that after my travels. 

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dosakkhayo

[SengKiat]

Hi, I have posted the Ratana Sutta book on this post #37290 and have added the book’s link below:

The Book of the Ratana Sutta (sutta with Pāli and English translation and detailed explanation) : Ratana Sutta – The Three Superb Jewels – Bhikkhu Nyanadassana.pdf

Ratana Sutta chanted by Venerable Waharaka Thero is in the post “Sutta Chanting (with Pāli Text)” which is quoted below.

2. Ratana Sutta (volume adjustment on the right):
WebLink: Listen to verse of : Ratana Sutta

 

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dosakkhayo, Jittananto

[Lal]

Thank you, Seng Kiat!

[y not]

Thank you ,Seng Kiat.

[Jittananto]

I have been in several debates recently about the sīla of a sotāpanna. Many people think that it is impossible to break the 5 precepts for a sotāpanna. They often take this sutta as proof and I admit it’s hard to argue with that. Gihisutta

It’s when a noble disciple doesn’t kill living creatures, steal, commit sexual misconduct, lie, or use alcoholic drinks that cause negligence.

Idha, sāriputta, ariyasāvako pāṇātipātā paṭivirato hoti, adinnādānā paṭivirato hoti, kāmesumicchācārā paṭivirato hoti, musāvādā paṭivirato hoti, surāmerayamajjapamādaṭṭhānā paṭivirato hoti.

These are the five precepts in which their actions are restrained.

Imesu pañcasu sikkhāpadesu saṁvutakammanto hoti.

• Some claim that the Ratanasutta is a later addition and is not truly the words of Lord Buddha. Of course, I don’t agree but why do they claim this?

[Lal]

The “Gihi Sutta (AN 5.179)” does not say that a Sotappanna cannot break the five precepts.

1. I have linked to the marker @2.1: “Katamesu pañcasu sikkhāpadesu saṁvutakammanto hoti?” It is CORRECTLY translated into English as “And what are the five precepts in which their actions are restrained?”

• Thus, a Sotapanna is only restrained (i.e., their actions are automatically controlled) not to engage in an apayagami kamma. 

2. The verse @2.2: “Idha, sāriputta, ariyasāvako pāṇātipātā paṭivirato hoti, adinnādānā paṭivirato hoti, kāmesumicchācārā paṭivirato hoti, musāvādā paṭivirato hoti, surāmerayamajjapamādaṭṭhānā paṭivirato hoti” is INCOREECTLY translated as “It’s when a noble disciple doesn’t kill living creatures, steal, commit sexual misconduct, lie, or use alcoholic drinks that cause negligence.”

• There, “pāṇātipātā paṭivirato” does not mean “doesn’t kill living creatures.”
• For example, it is quite possible for a Sotapanna to kill an animal if that becomes necessary, for example, to save a life of a human. However, they would not do that with any liking; that is what paṭivirato means, i.e., they may be forced to kill an animal but not for the sake of killing.

3. It is only an Arahant who is incapable of taking any life.

• The same applies to all five precepts. Only an Arahant can abstain from the precepts in an absolute way, without exception.

Be careful when reading English translations of suttas. I have provided numerous examples.

P.S. “saṁvutakammanto” ( saṁvuta kammanto) means “restrained actions.” The word “saṁvuta” is realetd to “saṁvara” or “restraint.” See “Saṁvara Sutta (AN 4.14).”

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Waisaka, Yash RS, Jittananto

[Jittananto]

Thank you very much for the explanation, sir. Yes, I have tried to explain it many times, some agree, others no. I think this is because they believe that the 5 precepts necessarily lead to hell. I responded with this sutta: Loṇakapallasutta

Take the case of a person who does a trivial bad deed, but it lands them in hell.

Idha, bhikkhave, ekaccassa puggalassa appamattakampi pāpakammaṁ kataṁ tamenaṁ nirayaṁ upaneti. 

Meanwhile, another person does the same trivial bad deed, but experiences it in the present life, without even a bit left over, let alone a lot.

Idha pana, bhikkhave, ekaccassa puggalassa tādisaṁyeva appamattakaṁ pāpakammaṁ kataṁ diṭṭhadhammavedanīyaṁ hoti, nāṇupi khāyati, kiṁ bahudeva.

What kind of person does the same trivial bad deed, but experiences it in the present life, without even a bit left over, let alone a lot?

Kathaṁrūpassa, bhikkhave, puggalassa tādisaṁyeva appamattakaṁ pāpakammaṁ kataṁ diṭṭhadhammavedanīyaṁ hoti, nāṇupi khāyati, kiṁ bahudeva?

A person who has developed their physical endurance, ethics, mind, and wisdom. They’re not small-minded, but are big-hearted, living without limits.

Idha, bhikkhave, ekacco puggalo bhāvitakāyo hoti bhāvitasīlo bhāvitacitto bhāvitapañño aparitto mahatto appamāṇavihārī

• Is this sutta relevant? If a sotāpanna does bad deeds, the Vipāka will be experienced in a human body and not in the apayas.The sutta is general, but I believe it can be applied in this case.

[Lal]

Yes. That principle holds for all magga phala, not only for Sotapannas.

• The ultimate example is an Arahant, who will not be subject to any vipaka after the death of the physical body.
• As an example, Angulimala killed almost a thousand people but did not have to “pay for it” by being reborn in an apaya because he attained Arahanthood.

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Jittananto

[angwllm]

As long as you are a practising baudhaya, the kama vipaka is likely to take effect in this current lifetime. It can takes three or four decades.  This is what it seems to me,  to facilitate your progress in the practice.  Just my thoughts.

[Lal]

Yes. As long as the “current physical body” is there, it is subject to kamma vipaka, which can come in many different ways.

• Some kamma vipaka can be due to specific kamma done in the past. For example, the Buddha had back pains due to a specific kamma done in the past; I believe it was due to breaking someone’s back in the past.
• But when an Earthquake hits a particular area, many in that area will be affected (killed or injured), and thus, it is not due to a specific kamma.

[Author]

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