- This topic has 11 replies, 2 voices, and was last updated 3 years ago by
.
-
Posts
-
-
Please see #2 and #4. There is a contradiction:
“…One is born in the apāyā or dugati (and also subjected to suffering even when born in good realms) due to bad gati arising mainly due to lōbha, dōsa, mōha. The akusala-mula PS operates when actions, speech, and thoughts occur with these three root causes …”“…The mundane versions of alobha, adosa, amoha still lead to akusala-mūla PS cycles that keep one in the rebirth process. …”
I think the akusala mula PS operates when avijja is present (not knowing the true nature of this world), regardless if alobha or lobha, adosa or dosa are involved (“avijja paccaya sankhara”). In terms of cetasika it means that even sobhana cetasika lead to new (good) kamma. Only if the “occasional” panna cetasika is involved no new kamma will be generated.
That would also explain why amoha is no a cetasika. Moha is not in sobhana citta but panna is also not a must for sobhana citta, only in case of kusala citta. Thus if panna cetasika is not in a sobhana citta, it is just a punna kamma with adosa or alobha. Panna makes a citta kusala.
Any thoughts?
-
That means the #6 in the post Cetasika (Mental Factors) needs to be written as: “There are 25 sobhana cetasika (beautiful mental factors) that appear only in punnabhi citta. …”
A sobhana citta is not always kusala, but always punna.
-
Yes. This is a deep aspect that not many people even notice.
The best way to explain this is as follows:
1. Alobha, adosa, and amoha are sobhana cetasika (. That means they are “good cetasika.”
2. However, “lobha, dosa, and moha can be present INDIRECTLY” as long as one has not comprehended Tilakkhana, i.e., the fruitlessness/dangers in the rebirth process.
– Therefore, a moral person who has not comprehended Tilakkhana, when they generate alobha/adosa/amoha would still have lobha/dosa/moha ‘on the side, not directly.” (P.S. We could say they are there as anusaya, not coming to the surface)3. In other words, when someone not comprehending Tilakkhana does a deed with alobha, say, there is still some lobha “hidden in there.”
– That level of avijja is eliminated ONLY after comprehending Tilakkhana.4. I have explained this in the post, “Kusala and Akusala Kamma, Puñña and Pāpa Kamma”
– Please read that post carefully. What I explained above is summarized in #7 in that post.
– “(more and more) PUÑÑA kamma will automatically become KUSALA kamma. Kusala kamma are better than puñña kamma.” That happens gradually as one’s level of understanding of Tilakkhana increases.5. This is why alobha, adosa, and amoha are labeled as sobhana cetasika, and NOT kusala cetasika.
– In the same way, there are kusala/akusala citta and there is no explicit term as “punnabhi citta.”P.S. There are, of course, “punnabhi sankhara.” Those are included in sankhara that arise due to avijja as explained in the post, “Saṅkhāra – What It Really Means“.
– That point is in #6 there.P.P.S. Those punnabhi sankhara AUTOMATICALLY become “kusala-mula paccaya sankhara” (leading to Nibbana) with comprehension of Tilakkhana. See, “Kusala-Mula Paṭicca Samuppāda”
For everyone, it is a good idea to read and comprehend the three posts referred to above.
-
Agreed, then this has to be corrected: #2 in kusala mula PS
“…One is born in the apāyā or dugati (and also subjected to suffering even when born in good realms) due to bad gati arising mainly due to lōbha, dōsa, mōha. The akusala-mula PS operates when actions, speech, and thoughts occur with these three root causes …”The akusala mula PS operates even with the good roots of alobha, adosa, amoha. As Paṭiccasamuppāda Vibhaṅga Vb 6 says:
“Tattha katame avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā? Puññābhisaṅkhāro, apuññābhisaṅkhāro, āneñjābhisaṅkhāro, kāyasaṅkhāro, vacīsaṅkhāro, cittasaṅkhāro.”Thus the akusala mula PS operates with the six roots.
If pannindriya cetasika is part of the citta the kusala mula PS operates. -
I think this sentence is misleading: “… Therefore, a moral person who has not comprehended Tilakkhana, when they generate alobha/adosa/amoha would still have lobha/dosa/moha ‘on the side, not directly.” (P.S. We could say they are there as anusaya, not coming to the surface)”
A normal person doing a good kamma will do it with the good roots. But this person still does not comprehend the Tilakkhana and thus avijja is present even in the good (punnabhi) sankhara. Avijja is not a cetasika. It is not knowing the truth and therefore the absents of pannindriya.
-
What I also see in the Kusalaniddesa of Vb 6 is what is needed for Nibbana: the lokuttara kusala citta. That is the citta with panna:
“…Tattha katame kusalamūlā? Alobho, adoso, amoho.
Tattha katamo alobho … pe … adoso … pe … amoho? Yā paññā pajānanā … pe … amoho dhammavicayo sammādiṭṭhi dhammavicayasambojjhaṅgo maggaṅgaṃ maggapariyāpannaṃ— ayaṃ vuccati “amoho”. Ime vuccanti “kusalamūlā”. …”
There are more kusala citta:
maha kusala citta,
rupavacara kusala citta,
arupavacara kusala citta,
but the link to panna is not shown. So we have kusala (or punnabhi) citta leading to good birth.PS: I just see there are more maha kusala citta explained, some of them have a link from amoho to panna (Tattha katamo amoho? Yā paññā pajānanā … pe … amoho dhammavicayo sammādiṭṭhi— ayaṃ vuccati “amoho”.).
-
Yes. That was a good idea.
I have revised #2 of “Kusala-Mula Paṭicca Samuppāda” as follows:
2. One is born in this world due to the six root causes.
– One is born in the apāyā or dugati (and also subjected to suffering even when born in good realms) due to bad gati arising MAINLY due to lōbha, dōsa, mōha. The akusala-mula PS operates when actions, speech, and thoughts occur with these three root causes; see, “Akusala-Mūla Paṭicca Samuppāda. “
– One is born in the “good realms” or sugati (and also experience mundane sense pleasures) due to “good gati” developed by acting with alobha, adosa, amoha. For example, one can engage in “good deeds” like giving, helping out others, etc., or cultivate jhāna. Those are done with mundane versions of alobha, adosa, amoha and can lead to rebirths in human, Deva, and Brahma realms. – However, they WILL NOT lead to Nibbāna, i.e., stopping the rebirth process.
– It is ONLY when one is acting with alobha, adosa, amoha (and comprehension of Four Noble Truths/Tilakkhana/Paṭicca Samuppāda) that those actions lead to Nibbāna via “Kusala-Mūla Paṭicca Samuppāda. “
– The above points are also discussed in detail in “Saṅkhāra – What It Really Means.”Tobias wrote: “I think this sentence is misleading: “… Therefore, a moral person who has not comprehended Tilakkhana, when they generate alobha/adosa/amoha would still have lobha/dosa/moha ‘on the side, not directly.” (P.S. We could say they are there as anusaya, not coming to the surface)”
There is nothing wrong with what I wrote there. But what you wrote below that is correct too.
-
What I do not understand is why are there kusala citta without the panna-link mentioned, e.g. rupavacara kusala citta or arupavacara kusala citta?
“…Tattha katame kusalamūlā? Alobho, adoso, amoho—ime vuccanti “kusalamūlā”. …”
Only some of the maha kusala citta and the lokuttara kusala citta have the panna-link.
Maybe the akusala mula PS operates when the level of understanding is too low, thus avijja is present. In kusala mula PS “amoha” could mean a better level of understanding.
-
““…Tattha katame kusalamūlā? Alobho, adoso, amoho—ime vuccanti “kusalamūlā”. …”
That is the uddesa version of the explanation.
– It needs to be explained in niddesa (more clarification) and patiniddesa (clarification with examples) versions, as needed.
– That is what is done with verbal discourse or a post (a series of posts in the case of patiniddesa).See, “Sutta – Introduction“
-
Another way to clarify this is the following.
1. Anything in this world arises due to six causes: lōbha, dōsa, mōha and alōbha, adōsa, amōha.
– Those alōbha, adōsa, amōha refer to MUNDANE alōbha, adōsa, amōha.
– They lead to “good rebirths”. See, “Kusala and Akusala Kamma, Puñña and Pāpa Kamma.”
– In other words, those alōbha, adōsa, amōha still are based on the ignorance of the Four Noble Truths/Tilakkhana/Paticca Samuppada. One does punna kamma (and NOT kusala kamma) with that version of alōbha, adōsa, amōha.2. When one comprehends Four Noble Truths/Tilakkhana/Paticca Samuppada, a deeper level of miccha ditthi is removed, and then punna kamma automatically become kusala kamma.
– Therefore the verse “…Tattha katame kusalamūlā? Alobho, adoso, amoho—ime vuccanti “kusalamūlā”. …” refer to that deeper level of alōbha, adōsa, amōha.You may have understood that. I just wanted to make sure.
-
This is the Kusala Niddesa and only some of the maha kusala citta and the lokuttara kusala citta have the panna-link. The others don’t have it.
“…Tattha katame kusalamūlā? Alobho, adoso, amoho—ime vuccanti “kusalamūlā”. …”
There is the explanation for 4 maha kusala citta in kamavacara.
The first includes all 3 good roots: alobho, adosa, amoho; with amoho as “Tattha katamo amoho? Yā paññā pajānanā … pe … amoho dhammavicayo sammādiṭṭhi— ayaṃ vuccati “amoho”..The second has only amoho, adoso.
The third has also all 3 good roots with “Tattha katame kusalamūlā? Alobho, adoso, amoho—ime vuccanti “kusalamūlā”
The fourth has only 2 good roots: alobho, adoso.
All 4 are kusala citta even without amoho. In rupavacara and arupavacara kusala citta is also no deeper level of amoho mentioned.
It seems to me that “kusala” here also refers to punna in general.
Bhikku Bodhis Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma explains those kamavacara-kusalacittani as:
“These eight types of consciousness are called wholesome (kusala) or meritious (punna) because they inhibit the defilements and produce good results. …” -
-
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.