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Hello,
As for Pathama Metta Sutta (AN 4.125), can you please shed some light as to the
“the difference, this the distinction, this the distinguishing factor, between an educated disciple of the noble ones and an uneducated run-of-the-mill person, when there is a destination, a reappearing.”https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.125.than.html
Quote from the sutta:
“A run-of-the-mill person having stayed there, having used up all the life-span of those devas, goes to hell, to the animal womb, to the state of the hungry shades. But a disciple of the Blessed One, having stayed there, having used up all the life-span of those devas, is unbound right in that state of being. This, monks, is the difference, this the distinction, this the distinguishing factor, between an educated disciple of the noble ones and an uneducated run-of-the-mill person, when there is a destination, a reappearing.”Thank you
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Post published: “Pathama Metta Sutta“.
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Tobias said: “What is brahmavihara (brahma+vihara)?”
I will discuss in the future the misunderstood concept of brahmavihara. I just wanted to introduce it here to get a start (Of course, it is mentioned in the sutta too).
Tobias said: “…one MUST have removed the 10 types of miccā ditthi even to cultivate anāriya jhāna”
That is new to me. Can you please elaborate on this?”This is an important point. This is the reason that most people in the West have a hard time getting into jhana. On the contrary, there are many people in the East who can get to anariya jhanas. This is mainly because those in the West are heavily influenced by modern science and thus dismiss rebirth (and laws of kamma) as nonsense, which of course belong to 10 types of micca ditthi.
– We can think about it this way. Jhanic states are higher lying realms in the 31 realms. We have 11 lower-lying realms in the kama loka. Then we have 16 higher-lying rupavacara realms, and even higher-lying 4 arupavacara realms. Kama loka realms have all five senses, and those beings enjoy kama or sense pleasures.
– Rupavacara beings only enjoy seeing and hearing. They are born there simply because, while being human, they had seen the drawbacks of sense pleasures and HAD CULTIVATED rupa jhanas by either SUPPRESSING or REMOVING the craving for sense pleasures, i.e., they had cultivated anariya or Ariya jhanas.Therefore, both types of jhana (Ariya or anariya) essentially REQUIRES one to believe in the rebirth process and the laws of kamma. EVEN SUPPRESSING the desire for sense pleasures is not an easy task. That is impossible to do without getting rid of the first level of “wrong views” about this world, the 10 types of micca ditthi.
Of course, comprehending Tilakkhana is the removal of the deeper layer of micca ditthi.
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This seems partial, tendentious :”This is an important point. This is the reason that most people in the West have a hard time getting into jhana. On the contrary, there are many people in the East who can get to anariya jhanas. This is mainly because those in the West are heavily influenced by modern science and thus dismiss rebirth (and laws of kamma) as nonsense, which of course belong to 10 types of micca ditthi.”
There are more western people than you might imagine getting into Jhana. Some of them “believe” (wondering if it’s a matter of just “believing”) in rebirth others not.Even if the feeling of rebirth eases the access to Jhana, it cannot be an indispensable requirement to attain it.
This said i’m not affirming that i don’t believe in rebirth.On the contrary.
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In the translation paragraph #2 it is said:
“Idha, bhikkhave, ekacco puggalo mettāsahagatena cetasā ekaṃ disaṃ pharitvā viharati, tathā dutiyaṃ tathā tatiyaṃ tathā catutthaṃ. Iti uddhamadho tiriyaṃ sabbadhi sabbattatāya sabbāvantaṃ lokaṃ mettāsahagatena cetasā vipulena mahaggatena appamāṇena averena abyāpajjena pharitvā viharati. So tadassādeti, taṃ nikāmeti, tena ca vittiṃ āpajjati.”“Bhikkhus, There is an individual who cultivates metta bhavana in four directions. Thus he keeps pervading above, below, and all around the universe with compassion.”
What means “four directions”?
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Idha, bhikkhave, ekacco puggalo mettāsahagatena cetasā ekaṃ disaṃ pharitvā viharati, tathā dutiyaṃ tathā tatiyaṃ tathā catutthaṃ. Iti uddhamadho tiriyaṃ sabbadhi sabbattatāya sabbāvantaṃ lokaṃ mettāsahagatena cetasā vipulena mahaggatena appamāṇena averena abyāpajjena pharitvā viharati.
Translated:
There is the case where an individual keeps pervading the first direction — as well as the second direction, the third, & the fourth — with an awareness imbued with good will. Thus he keeps pervading above, below, & all around, everywhere & in every respect the all-encompassing cosmos with an awareness imbued with good will: abundant, expansive, immeasurable, free from hostility, free from ill will.first direction — as well as the second direction, the third, & the fourth are the North, South, East and West directions.
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Do I misunderstand the Pathama metta sutta(AN 4.125)?
PureDhamma Pathama Metta Sutta Post
SuttaCentral Pathama Metta Sutta translation
It says one can be reborn in brahma realms if they if they cultivate and sustain metta, karuna, mudita, and upekkha.
Says “abide in that, are committed to it, and meditate on it often without losing it.”
The “abide in that” and “without losing it” implies jhana to me.
So this would mean focus of meditation would be one the four brahmavihara.
Question:
So one can get to jhana via focusing on one of these four: metta/karuna/mudita/upekkha? -
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Upekkha100 asked: “So one can get to jhana via focusing on one of these four: metta/karuna/mudita/upekkha?”
One gets to jhana by overcoming the kama loka.
Anariya jhana are attained by SUPPRESSING kama raga. Ariya jhana are attained by REMOVING kama raga, i.e., one would an Anagami to get to even to the first Ariya jhana.
There are two brahma realms below the one that can be reached via doing the metta bhavana:
“31 Realms of Existence”So, it is a gradual process to get to higher brahma realms.
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Unless I misunderstand, another sutta: the Metta (Mettanisamsa) Sutta also seems to say one of the benefits of cultivating metta is being reborn as brahma(benefit #11):
“1. “He sleeps in comfort. 2. He awakes in comfort. 3. He sees no evil dreams. 4. He is dear to human beings. 5. He is dear to non-human beings. 6. Devas (gods) protect him. 7. Fire, poison, and sword cannot touch him. 8. His mind can concentrate quickly. 9. His countenance is serene. 10. He dies without being confused in mind. 11. If he fails to attain arahantship (the highest sanctity) here and now, he will be reborn in the brahma-world.”https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an11/an11.016.piya.html
Question:
Now how does one do this? Meaning: How does one cultivate metta/karuna/mudita/upekkha to the level of a brahma(the kind of metta/karuna/mudita/upekkha that a brahma would radiate)? So that one can have higher chances of being reborn a brahma?And by “metta level of a brahma” I mean as compared to an average person’s metta level. For example, a brahma’s metta would be like 100/100, an average person with low metta would be 30/100(I’m quantifying and using these numbers for sake of using as examples).
To me, it would seem this feat(mastering metta. Attaining 100/100 metta)is not possible ONLY through informal bhavana alone. To clarify further, informal bhavana being the meditation that is done outside of formal sitting meditation:where one tries to think/speak/do actions with metta. Basically being in metta mode all day long, everyday. Majority of one’s sankhara is done with metta. But I don’t think this alone is enough to get metta to the level of a brahma. I think one would need the reinforcement of formal sitting meditation too? Through deep absorption in metta, like via jhana maybe?
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Upekkha. Do not complicate things brother. Metta are attained in understanding nature of this world. Whatever Buddha speaks, he speaks about one thing (Nibbana) from different angles. You cultivate metta by getting rid of tanha and avijja. Once you get rid of cravings, ignorance and you see there is no point doing bad things – natural niramisa sukha arises which gives birth to metta, karuna etc.
Any type of “keeping something” is still anariya bhavana and anariya thinking.
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Hi Upekkha100,
Jhana’s and brahma worlds can be enticing as you have pointed out in other discussion on this forum. But a point to keep in mind is that even if one gets to jhana and/or brahma worlds, if he is not an ariya, he will fall back down to the animal worlds and nirayas.
“An ordinary person stays there until the lifespan of those gods is spent, then they go to hell or the animal realm or the ghost realm. But a disciple of the Buddha stays there until the lifespan of those gods is spent, then they’re extinguished in that very life. This is the difference between an educated noble disciple and an uneducated ordinary person, that is, when there is a place of rebirth.”
So in my opinion it would be of more benefit to strive to attain maggha pala rather than jhana.
Just my thoughts on this.
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Akvan,
That is my position as well.
Neither the development of jhanas nor formal meditation techniques are necessary to attain magga phala..In both activities there may be uncertainty both along the way and as to the final result, and that final result is not permanent. Therefore, neither can be their fruits.
But one knows when one has attained pasada in the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha, then aveccappasada (the striving to live a moral and virtuous life) follows. One has sammaditthi, no room for doubt is left.
I had read the para that you quote; the matter is made very clear there. No need for me to comment.
Metta
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Akvan wrote:
“So in my opinion it would be of more benefit to strive to attain maggha pala rather than jhana.”I agree. But why can’t one do both? Strive for magga phala and cultivate jhana? Brahma realm is one of the best states to be in to attain magga phala, because their minds are very pure(low in greed, hatred, delusion).
I personally think marriage and having children are one the biggest obstacles/hindrances and risks to the Path, as was clearly implied if not said directly in the Tipitaka numerous times. But I don’t go around preaching or discouraging others to not get married or to not have children. As long as it is not immoral/unwholesome/unhealthy/harmful/dangerous to anyone, it is their life, their choice(I consider marriage/children as huge potential obstacles but not unwholesome). Who am I to control other people? There are people who can remain married, have children, indulge in sensual pleasures yet still follow the Path successfully, and even attain magga phala, and I salute these people. Whether it be anariya laypeople, Sotapannas or Sakadagamis. This shows that many things in sansara can be potential obstacles/risks/hindrances to the Path, it is how one uses it. One can have a knife: one can use it to hurt others or rescue someone tied up with a rope.
So out of all the possible hindrances/obstacles that exist in Sansara, it is puzzling to me that people would try to discourage some of the most wholesome activities(like jhana), activities the Buddha even encouraged.
When people are excessively controlling of other peoples lives/behavior/activity, this makes me think they have a severe case of atta sanna. Adamant about controlling what others do or how others behave. We have to accept we can’t mold and control what choices others make nor how they behave. Advise with good intention is fine, but then this too could risk becoming unwholesome.
It seems to displease Christian, y not and perhaps Akvan, when people are trying to cultivate something like brahma level metta or jhana? If that is something you are not doing nor is it your goal that is fine, but please just because you are not aiming for this, try not to discourage others from something the Buddha clearly was not against. Otherwise it seems like a case of “do as I do, believe as I do, accept as I do, and behave as I do”—>control issues/atta sanna issues. The Buddha never coerced nor forced.
The Buddha clearly encouraged people to cultivate metta that like of a brahma and did not speak ill of cultivating jhanas.
It is becoming apparent that the brahma level metta and kama raga cannot coexist.
So I’d like to know how one would successfully be able to do this(reduce kama raga)?
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I agree with Akvan that it is better to strive for magga phala than attainment of anariya jhanas, and partially agree with y not.
y not stated: “Neither the development of jhanas nor formal meditation techniques are necessary to attain magga phala”. The former is true, but in my opinion, the latter may or may not be true. It depends on the individual, and the stage of magga phala that is in question.
For the attainment of sotapanna magga phala, formal meditation techniques are not necessary as one can listen to a desana by a knowledgeable Ariya. There were those in The Buddha’s time that attained Arahanthood after listening to one or more short verses from The Buddha, such as Sariputta and Moggallana. However, others could only attain the stages of Sotapanna, Sakadagami, or Anagami, and had to put in more effort (most probably through formal meditation techniques) to attain Arahanthood.
y not, please do not get frustrated with the fact that I am correcting you. I am not sure that I have done it in a tactful manner so I seek your kind understanding on the matter. :)
Upekkha100, in my opinion, it is good to practise in such a way as to reduce avijja and tanha, since they can strengthen each other. You may reduce avijja by reading dhamma or hearing desanas from a knowledgeable Ariya. You may reduce tanha by cultivating metta. Metta is very closely related to the adosa cetasika, which is one of the universal sobhana cetasikas, while tanha is closely related to lobha and dosa, two asobhana cetasikas.
Since sobhana and asobhana cetasikas cannot arise in the same citta, you can gradually change your gati for the better by cultivating metta to weaken one aspect of tanha, which is dosa. Since some people find it difficult to attain jhanas, probably the best way to cultivate metta would be through informal daily activities on a continuous basis. This would be Satipatthana in action. You would also be cultivating the sati cetasika, which is another universal sobhana cetasika. Doing so would probably embark you on the Mundane Eightfold Path (if you are not an Ariya), which would bring you very gradual progress. This might be a more comprehensive and suitable approach.
What are your thoughts? It would be great to discuss them.
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One more thing, Upekkha100.
Please do not misunderstand Akvan. I fully believe Akvan is a sincere and helpful fellow being. He has often offered advice which I highly respect and found beneficial. So I was pleasantly surprised to see his post today.
He probably wanted to point out to you the danger of being caught up in the pursuit of anariya jhanas. If successful, that could lead to rebirth in a Brahma realm where lobha, dosa and moha are only temporarily suppressed. The Brahma being may fail to realise dukkha and the urgent need to continue any more practice to attain Nibbana, so comparatively blissful to the human realm is a Brahma realm. Even in the human realm which has so much more suffering, many people refuse to see dukkha in their lives; what more can we expect in the Brahma realm? At the cuti-patisandhi moment, he may come to grasp a bhava in the apayas, due to previous kamma vipaka ripening.
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upekkha100 wrote: “So I’d like to know how one would successfully be able to do this(reduce kama raga)?”
firewns wrote: “For the attainment of sotapanna magga phala, formal meditation techniques are not necessary as one can listen to a desana by a knowledgeable Ariya.”
That is correct: Formal meditation is not necessary (but could be used) for the Sotapanna phala.
But meditation could also be interpreted as contemplation. Contemplation is necessary for any kind progress. One needs to comprehend the “world view” of the Buddha.
firewns other comments are very insightful. When one cultivates sobhana cetasika, it automatically leads to the suppression of asobhana cetasika. Therefore, when one is on the Path, not only immoral thoughts, but also kama raga is reduced (gradually).
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firewns,
I am not at all frustrated. Please rest assured that you have my understanding. And, moreover, I do not feel that you are ‘correcting’ me, except in that it was me perhaps who was not tactful enough to make what I meant quite clear.
You observe that I started off there with; ‘that is my position as well’, meaning to say ‘that is how it is WITH ME’. I was not making a statement to apply to everybody. As you say’It depends on the individual,…” I know the Buddha praised the attainment of jhanas, so it would be plainly WRONG of me to disparage them.
My whole point was to contrast all of that with the fruit of pasada(in the Buddha, Dhamma and sangha) ,aveccappasada, sammaditthi etc. and that in turn would be, to put it bluntly, that I deem jhanas and formal meditation to be beyond me.
May you attain Peace
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May I add that after I wrote that Sariputta and Moggallana attained Arahanthood after listening to one or more stanzas from The Buddha, I tried to further find out if what I had written was indeed the truth. I do not normally pay attention to The Buddha’s disciples’ attainment, preferring instead to learn the content of The Buddha’s teachings. Hence I was very concerned that I had been mistaken in this regard.
It turns out that both Sariputta and Moggallana needed to contemplate further after initially hearing from the Arahant Assaji (in Sariputta’s case) and later from The Buddha. In Moggallana’s case, he even cultivated the Ariya jhanas before attaining Arahanthood. However, the 250 or so followers that Sariputta and Moggallana brought with them became Arahants after listening to The Buddha, and there was no mention of them cultivating jhanas. Hence jhanas are not a prerequisite to the attainment of Nibbana, and those who find it hard to abide in the jhanas should not be overly concerned. These are my thoughts.
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Hi firewns. Thank you for that. Clearly my tapa was high when I came to this topic, your posts had a calming effect on me, your metta level must be high, it tranquilized me haha. Appreciate that friend.
The following is going to be long, and I apologize for the length. I don’t have others I can share this with, and the PureDhamma community feels like family, so I feel I should explain my reason for wanting to attain jhana, because I keep seeing the reply of “one does not need jhana in order to attain magga phala”. I’m aware of this. I am not trying to cultivate jhana for this purpose. There is one significant primary reason I want this, and also a lesser secondary reason.
Before I explain those 2 motivations, I think I should make clear my number one goal is to attain the Sotapanna stage in this very life. It has been since I officially entered the world of Buddha Dhamma in 2016. So it has been about 3 years of me following/practising the Path and learning/trying to understand the Dhamma.
But in order to attain the Sotapanna stage, simply following the Path and learning/reading Dhamma is not enough. One NEEDS to LISTEN to a desana by an Ariya. I feel like this point should be emphasized more on this site, because for the longest time I was under the incorrect impression that one could become a Sotapanna just by READING the material. And I think many others here are or were under the same incorrect impression. I don’t think one can even become a Sotapanna Anugami just via reading(unless I am mistaken, I don’t think the Tipitaka even mentions how one would become a Sotapanna Anugami. Tipitaka was orally transmitted back then so I doubt the Tipitaka would have said that one can become Sotapanna Anugami via reading.)
I wish reading allowed this feat, but that is not the case. I’ve noticed things and rules are precise in Buddha Dhamma. It is not random nor arbitrary nor some meaningless zen gibberish to impress/confuse people with a profound saying. The Buddha would not have said that listening to a desana is a requirement for Sotapanna stage if it was arbitrary. It is not, there is a significant reason why it is a requirement. As Buddha Dhamma teaches, nothing can come out of nothing. Every effect/result has a cause. In order for a result/effect to come, one needs BOTH the cause and the conditions. Like in order to get a fruit one would need an fruit seed AND the right conditions(fertile soil via nutrients/water/sun) for the fruit(result/effect) to bear. The 4 stages of enlightenment are magga phala. Phala means fruit(result/effect). Sotapanna stage is the fruit/result of something. It cannot come to be randomly, arbitrarily. Without causes and conditions. This too needs the causes/conditions or seeds/nutrients and fertile soil. So if Sotapanna stage is the fruit, what are the seeds and conditions?
From contemplating the info here and few suttas, listening to the desana by the Ariya is the seed. The Ariya energy from their desana being implanted/seeded in our minds. Our minds are the soil. Striving/sila/kusala/Anapana/Satipatthana/following the Path are the conditions(nutrients/sun/water) for that seed so that it can be in the fertile ground most conducive to eventually grow/result into a fruit(magga phala, or Sotapanna stage). Now it is no longer just a seed, but the fruit. Sotapanna stage is like the young underripe fruit. This underripe fruit would keep growing, eventually this fruit completes matures and becomes ripe at the Arahant stage.
The main reason I’m interested in attaining jhana is because it is a backup plan. What if this is my last jati of my human bhava. I have no idea where my next destination will be. It could be the apayas. There is no guarantee I will become Sotapanna in this very life. In case I don’t, I will have nothing to guarantee my safety from an unfortunate realm. Besides attaining magga phala, no activity exists for securing/guaranteeing the human/deva realm, besides deva realm just seems like a scary trap. Fortunately, an activity to secure or at least increase chance for brahma realm exists: and that is jhana or cultivating high metta, if one could sustain this through the entire bhava. If I attain jhana, I will have a higher chance of being reborn a brahma. Being reborn in a fortunate realm. I will have a safety net, something to fall back on, in case I don’t become a Sotapanna in this life. And there is a high chance/probability I won’t.
The reason for why I think I will most likely not become a Sotapanna in this life being: the scarcity of Ariyas in this day and age.
Now if I were in the Indian subcontinent during the time of the Buddha, I would have obviously had the possibility of a higher chance of the blessing/luxury/privilege of being able to hear a desana by the Buddha himself or other Ariyas. Thanks to the Buddha’s appearance, Ariyas and Arahants were abundant during that time. But that is not the case today. The Buddha is not here today. And I believe that compared to those times, there is a scarcity of Ariyas in these present days. It is not as if I have access to an Ariya. Thus do not have easy access to listening to a desana by an Ariya that is needed to become a Sotapanna either. Even if I do, I would not even be able to be 100% sure whether they are Ariya or not.
In addition, I do not think recordings of desanas fulfill that requirement to become a Sotapanna. I have great doubt they would work or count. I do not think recording would have enough of a strong javana power that is equal to the javana power that would be radiated from a desana heard in person. I do not think recordings would implant the seed in my mind successfully.
If recordings could do such a feat, it would have been fortunate for us if the devas(who have powers we don’t, and most likely advanced technology we don’t) could have given the gift of a recording device and recorded a desana by the Buddha. Then the future generation would have a desana to listen to by the Buddha himself, and we would have this recording to use as the seed in our minds to attain the Sotapanna stage.
Attaining the Sotapanna stage is not an insignificant goal. I do not take it lightly. Thus I do not want to risk it nor take a chance by just relying on recordings. In case they do not work nor provide the necessary requirement to attain the Sotapanna stage, I want to be safe and listen to a desana in person. To accomplish this, I have already requested the organizers of Venerable Wallasmuelle’s desana tour to visit the USA and my state so that I’d be able to listen to a desana in person. Thankfully I was told they are planning on doing the desana tour in USA.
^ So I believe I have taken the initial necessary steps to increase my chances of attaining the Sotapanna stage for anyone who misunderstood me and may have thought this is my secondary goal, and jhana is my first goal. That is not the case. It is the reverse.
In short:
#1 main goal: Sotapanna stage in this very life.
#2 secondary goal: attaining jhana to increase the chances of being reborn in a fortunate realm-the brahma realm, as a backup plan/safety net in case I do not become a Sotapanna in this life/bhava. -
Hi Upekkha,
Don’t be disheartened that there aren’t many ariyas today. I believe that there are quite a few. So you can listen to their deshanas on youtube or on their sites. I can share some links of such deshanas / theros in English and Sinhala if you are interested.
There have been quite a few discussions here whether recorded deshanas are useful in attaining sotapanna stage. I personally think that they are. However, it is up to each individual to decide for themselves.
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Upekkha100,
It is great that you have taken the initial necessary steps to attaining the Sotapanna stage. I am happy for you. Do what you can, and do not worry too much over things you may not have much control over.
Next, I would like to address the following question(s) to Lal and anyone who knows:
In the Alagaddupama Sutta (MN 22), it was stated (in the second last paragraph just before the footnotes, as translated by access to insight):
“In the Dhamma thus well-proclaimed by me — clear, open, evident, stripped of rags — those monks who have a [sufficient] measure of conviction in me, a [sufficient] measure of love for me, are all headed for heaven. This is how the Dhamma well-proclaimed by me is clear, open, evident, stripped of rags.”
Also, in the Sarakaani Sutta (SN 55.24), it was stated (in the third and second last paragraphs just before the footnotes, as translated by access to insight):
“Take the case of another man. He is not even endowed with unwavering devotion to the Buddha, the Dhamma, the Sangha. He is not joyous and swift in wisdom and has not gained release. But perhaps he has these things: the faculty of faith, of energy, of mindfulness, of concentration, of wisdom. And the things proclaimed by the Tathaagata are moderately approved by him with insight. That man does not go to the realm of hungry ghosts, to the downfall, to the evil way, to states of woe.
“Take the case of another man. He is not even endowed with unwavering devotion to the Buddha, the Dhamma, the Sangha. He is not joyous and swift in wisdom and has not gained release. But he has just these things: the faculty of faith, of energy, of mindfulness, of concentration, of wisdom. Yet if he has merely faith, merely affection for the Tathaagata, that man, too, does not go to… states of woe.
Does this mean that as long as one has sufficient faith and love for The Buddha, one will not go to the apayas and may even go to the heavens (which I take to be the deva realms)?
These two suttas seem to offer hope that those who are not Ariyas may still escape the apayas, at least in the very next bhava, if I am not wrong.
Hopefully the answers to these questions can offer comfort to those who wonder and worry where they are bound after this life, if they have not, or are not certain if they have attained the fruit of sotapanna.
May you all attain happiness and peace and make much progress on the Path to Nibbana!
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However, I would like to hastily add that having sufficient faith and love in The Buddha is definitely no substitute for diligent practice towards the goal of Nibbana. Hopefully faith and love can be something to fall back on when one seems to be making very slow progress, but it should be taken in the context of all the steps that one can take towards Nibbana, i.e. sila, bhavana, panna and The Eightfold Path. Nothing should be neglected.
In addition, thank you very much in advance for your responses to my question above!
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It is a very good question, firewrns.
The key here is to understand what is really meant by “having faith” in the Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha.
This is NOT a pledge that is done without understanding. I know a lot of people who have “blind faith” in the Buddha, but are not even aware of the basic teachings of the Buddha. They may even believe in their hearts that they have “faith” in the Buddha. But the key is unless they truly understand the Dhamma, they cannot have true faith in the Buddha, Dhamma, or Sangha.
One example from the Tipitaka is queen Mallika, who gave the most expensive alms giving to the Buddha and a very large number of bhikkhus. She was born in an apaya (as a worm). Thus she was not even a Sotapanna Anugami.
To be at least a Sotapanna Anugami one has to “see” the Dhamma: Basically, how one can be born in an apaya if one still has “apayagami gatI”. One has to know how “apayagami gati” are related to that type of sankhara and vinnana (due to avijja), i.e., one needs to understand Paticca Samuppada (and also remove the deeper layer of avijja by beginning to comprehend Tilakkhana). See, “Viññāna – Consciousness Together With Future Expectations” (and “Viññāna Aggregate” for a deeper analysis of vinnana).
Therefore, both UNDERSTANDING Dhamma, and LIVING (generating/stopping sankhara accordingly) is the key. This was explained in the two posts published recently (which I wrote to dispel this myth about blind faith at the Dhamma Wheel forum):
Breath Meditation Is Addictive and Harmful in the Long Run
Ānapānasati Eliminates Mental Stress PermanentlyIn fact, I started the new subsection, “Essential Buddhism” because I was appalled by the level of ignorance displayed by several people commenting at that forum. They were harassing me because they thought I was teaching wrong Dhamma! But I think at least some are beginning to realize their lack of understanding. It is not their fault. Most publications in English have incorrect or incomplete translations of deep suttas.
As mentioned in that second post:
Understanding Buddha Dhamma is all about understanding the steps in Paticca Samuppāda:“Yō paticcasamuppādam passati,
so Dhammam passati.
Yō Dhammam passati,
so paticcasamuppādam passati”One who sees paticcasamuppāda
sees the Dhamma.
One who sees the Dhamma
sees paticcasamuppāda.”(Mahāhatthipadopama Sutta (MN 28); at the end).
Also, one needs to understand what is meant by “Buddha”: “bhava uddha” or “stopping future bhava” (and jati or births).
– A Buddha is someone who discovered the way to “stop future bhava” and thus to “stop future suffering”.
– In the Dhammacakkapavattana Sutta, the Buddha clearly declared the ultimate goal: “akuppā me vimutti, ayam antimā jāti, natthi dāni punabbhavo” or “I have attained the ultimate release (from all suffering); this is the last birth, no more births for me”.Finally, in the Vakkali Sutta (SN 22.87), the Buddha told Ven. Vakkali: “Yo kho, vakkali, dhammaṃ passati so maṃ passati; yo maṃ passati so dhammaṃ passati” OR “One who sees the Dhamma sees me; one who sees me sees the Dhamma”.
Therefore, to have true faith, one needs to “see” Dhamma; to see Dhamma, one needs to see Paticca Samuppada; to truly understand Paticca Samuppada, one needs to start comprehending Tilakkhana; for that one needs to get rid of the 10 types of miccha ditthi first.
– Therefore it is a step-by-step process.This “process” is not completed in a single lifetime. Those who get to Arahanthood by just hearing a single verse had fulfilled most of the steps in previous lives.
– We all have fulfilled these to varying levels.
– Some of the progress may even be temporarily hidden (if Sotapanna stage had not been reached in previous lives), and it may be easy to “get it back” if one is exposed to true Dhamma.
– We just need to do our best to advance from wherever we are at this time. -
Lal: Thank you very much once again for your lengthy explanation. It is helpful to me.
Upekkha100: I am really extremely glad that you cooled down after reading my post. It is good that I was able to offer some comfort as a Dhamma friend. Just knowing that made it well worth writing the post. I think you will meet other helpful individuals in this forum too.
y not: May you attain peace too.
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Akvan wrote:
“So you can listen to their deshanas on youtube or on their sites. I can share some links of such deshanas/theros in English and Sinhala if you are interested. ”Yes, please share a list of English desanas that you think would be helpful. That would be great! Thanks Akvan!
firewns:
Thank you for sharing those two suttas. You are a miracle. Just what I needed see.Those suttas are referring to the saddha of anariyas right? Not the aveccappasāda(unwavering saddha) of Ariyas. One can have strong saddha in one life and lose it in future lives if one is anariya. But if one ends their bhava with genuine saddha, even if they are anariya, this increases the chance to be reborn in fortunate realms?
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Upekkha100:
I have reason to believe that those lines were referring to the saddha of anariyas, for they were arranged after paragraphs describing Arahants, Anagamis, Sakadagamis, and Sotapannas in that order, from the most developed beings to lesser developed ones.
However, how much is enough faith and love in The Buddha? Perhaps these qualities need to be cultivated to very high levels, and that can only come about through a deep understanding of Buddhadhamma, as Lal has pointed out. Still they offer hope to anariyas, though anariyas should still strive hard to practise the Path and develop their understanding of Buddhadhamma.
…Upekkha100, please listen and consider carefully what I am going to write next.
A future Buddha is coming! He is Buddha Metteyya, the last Buddha in our current maha kappa. However, at least 2400 years need to pass before He arrives, when the current Buddha Sasana ends. After Him, I do not know when the next Buddha would arrive. Maybe it would be incalculable aeons later, for there are aeons in which there is not even a single Buddha.
Do you see now that if you became a Brahma being during the time that Buddha Metteyya appears in the human realm, you may not have the chance or desire to learn the Dhamma from Him? The lifetime of a Brahma being seems to be calculated in aeons, and could most certainly coincide with the arrival of Buddha Metteyya in the human realm.
In my opinion, as your second goal, it should be having the chance to hear the pure Dhamma from Buddha Metteyya and to attain magga phala there and then, or even in the intervening years before He arrives in the human realm, which seems to be better than to be reborn as a Brahma being.
There seems to be instances in the commentaries of suttas in which The Buddha refers to the Brahma realms as the ‘inferior Brahma world’, presumably with regards to the ultimate goal of attaining Nibbana.
In fact, in the Dhanañjani Sutta (MN 97), The Buddha chided Sariputta for not guiding Dhanañjanin to magga phala just as Dhanañjanin lay dying, and instead only guiding him to the Brahma realms where he was reborn in, and would have to abide there for an extremely long time before being reborn as a human again, subjected to much dukkha. In the meantime, Dhanañjanin would still have to undergo aeons of very fine dukkha as a Brahma being. This was in the case of Dhanañjanin, a very highly developed being who was ripe for magga phala if only the necessary conditions were present. (Results may vary for other beings.)
Perhaps you are thinking: Even if you could listen to the pure Dhamma of Buddha Metteyya, you may still not have the necessary conditions to attain magga phala. Then, every time you perform dana (such as donating to The Sangha or bhikkhus), sila (such as helping others in need), metta (such as treating others with kindness and good will), and bhavana (such as reading and further contemplation on Dhamma concepts), you ‘should’ make the following determination if you remember to do so: May the meritorious kamma of this deed as well as other kusala and/or punna kamma that I have accrued enable me to attain magga phala either in this lifetime, or before Buddha Metteyya comes to this human realm, or at the very least during the time of Buddha Metteyya.
The power of making determinations when performing kusala and/or punna kamma can be tremendous. For example, The Buddha pointed out that When, for instance, Kondañña-the Knower in a previous life gave almsfood nine times during a single harvest, he did not aspire to Chief Discipleship; his aspiration was to be the very first to penetrate to the highest state, Arahatship. And so it came about. But when Sariputta and Maha Moggallana many aeons ago, at the time of the Buddha Anomadassi, were born as the brahman youth Sarada and landowner Sirivaddhaka, they made the aspiration for Chief Discipleship. Hence both Sariputta and Moggallana became the Chief Disciples of The Buddha.
Upekkha100, if you would carry out these steps faithfully, I am sure that you will most probably be preparing yourself very well indeed for the attainment of magga phala, don’t you agree?
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Upekkha,
Those suttas are referring to the saddha of anariyas right? Not the aveccappasāda(unwavering saddha) of Ariyas’
Insight into this, along with an answer is found.
Please go back to the post:
Kamma and Kamma Vipāka › AN 10.219 Karayakayasutta (The Body born o f Deeds)
the last two entries speak about the opening verse of the Nitthangatasutta AN 10.63:
” all those who have come to a conclusion about me are accomplished in view. (“Ye keci, bhikkhave, mayi niṭṭhaṃ gatā sabbe te diṭṭhisampannā.”This, for common folk, that is, grammatically,may be taken in two ways: 1) aveccappasada in the Buddha leads to sammaditthi; i.e because of their reverence, esteem,veneration, and an unswerving and ULTIMATE, FINAL , having come to a stop, a conclusion, with no further room for it beyond (Nittha) , owing to that ditthisanpanna results. 2) because of ditthisanpanna all those qualities, reverence……etc become attributed to the Buddha in one’s heart.
Now ditthi cannot arise in oneself just because one loves the Buddha. You find people owning Buddha heads and statues, some even boast about their collections of such, declare their ‘admiration’ of the Buddha, the calming influence these bring into their lives, and so on, yet they have no idea of the 10 types of micch ditthi. When one KNOWS that one has no problem with any of them, then one has sammaditthi. Living one’s internal life in line with that, and externally with the developement of kusala in deed, word and action, dana, sila in general and so on, aveccappasada arises. It is a feeling of great, of immense appreciation that is impossible to fully give expression to.
It is sammaditthi then that leads to magga phala, (as the rest of the Sutta shows) not mere pema (love) nor even aveccappasada itself, for that is only the natural consequence of ditthsanpanna.
I have not stopped contemplating this one verse ever since as it brings great joy and peace of mind. May you share in it, Upekkha
With Metta
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firewns wrote:
“In my opinion, as your second goal, it should be having the chance to hear the pure Dhamma from Buddha Metteyya and to attain magga phala there and then, or even in the intervening years before He arrives in the human realm, which seems to be better than to be reborn as a Brahma being.”We think alike. That is another reason why I want to be reborn a brahma. If you see this topic from last month, this was my reply:
Sammaparibbajaniya Sutta forum topic
“2) If can’t attain stages of Nibbana, then attain jhana so that one can increase the chance of a brahma bhava and maybe become Ariya as a brahma. Billions years of bliss and safety from apayas. Since brahmas have long lifespan, this increases the chance of possibly meeting the future Buddha as well(yes this is my wish haha), and become an Ariya after listening to a desana by him. ”
firewns wrote:
“The power of making determinations when performing kusala and/or punna kamma can be tremendous.”Yes, could not agree more! Our repeated abhisankhara create an energy, that if done enough and with strong/potent enough intention, it creates momentum and propels a sentient being towards that direction(goal/wish/desire). Sometimes to the point that it is fated or becomes fate rather than have a weak chance/probablity of coming to fruition(in the case of Bodisatta and Chief disciples). That is why I have a daily routine, and list of wishes/determinations when doing kusala/punna/metta bhavana, to create and build up this energy so that it would propel me towards the Sotapanna stage at the very least.
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Hi Upekkha,
This is the link to the Youtube channel; https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCpA0sy3c2kTFKmiUaLElFfA
Most of the sermons are in Sinhala but there are a few in English as well. The English sermons are conducted every Sunday afternoon (at around 2 or 3 pm) Sri Lanka time and is streamed live on the YouTube channel.
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Lal:
In your reply to me about what is really meant by “having faith” in the Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha, did you mean that in your view only Sotapanna Anugamis are referred to in the following case (and not anariyas):
“Take the case of another man. He is not even endowed with unwavering devotion to the Buddha, the Dhamma, the Sangha. He is not joyous and swift in wisdom and has not gained release. But he has just these things: the faculty of faith, of energy, of mindfulness, of concentration, of wisdom. Yet if he has merely faith, merely affection for the Tathaagata, that man, too, does not go to… states of woe.
If that is so, I have made a mistake, and I also hope readers will take note of it, especially Upekkha100, since I have replied to him in error that anariyas were being referred to.
Thank you in advance once again for putting in the effort to clarify with me.
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firewns quoted: “Take the case of another man. He is not even endowed with unwavering devotion to the Buddha, the Dhamma, the Sangha. He is not joyous and swift in wisdom and has not gained release. But he has just these things: the faculty of faith, of energy, of mindfulness, of concentration, of wisdom. Yet if he has merely faith, merely affection for the Tathaagata, that man, too, does not go to… states of woe.”
I need to know where this quote came from, before I can answer. Please always provide a link when you quote.
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“I need to know where this quote came from..Please always provide a link when you quote.”
To clarify:
firewrns did that already: (January 23, 2019 at 12:31 am; above):
“Also, in the Sarakaani Sutta (SN 55.24), it was stated (in the third and second last paragraphs just before the footnotes, as translated by access to insight):”
– – – – – – – – – – – – –
For the Pali:/suttacentral.net/sn55.24/en/sujato:
Still, they have these qualities: api cassa ime dhammā honti the faculties of faith, energy, mindfulness, immersion, and wisdom. saddhindriyaṃ … pe … paññindriyaṃ. And they have a degree of faith and love for the Buddha.Tathāgate cassa SADDHAmattaṃ hoti PEMAmattaṃ
metta
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Thanks, y not. I did not see the link: “Sarakaani Sutta: Sarakaani (Who Took to Drink)” (SN 55.24)
I just read it and it is a good sutta that clarifies the Sotapanna Anugami stage. I have made some revisions to that English translation to make it clear:
Sarakaani Sutta: Sarakaani (Who Took to Drink)
[At Kapilavasthu] Now at that time Sarakaani the Sakyan, who had died, was proclaimed by the Blessed One to be a Sotapanna, not subject to rebirth in the apayas, assured of Nibbana. At this, a number of the Sakyans, whenever they met each other or came together in company, were indignant and angry, and said scornfully: “A fine thing, a marvelous thing! Nowadays anyone can become a Sotapanna, if the Buddha has proclaimed Sarakaani who died to be a Sotapanna… assured of Nibbana! Yet, Sarakaani failed to live a moral life and took to drink!”
[Mahaanaama the Sakyan reported this to the Buddha who said:] “Mahaanaama, a lay-follower who has for a long time taken refuge in the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha — how could he go to apayas? Therefore, how can Sarakaani go to apayas?(1). “Mahaanaama, take the case of a person endowed with unwavering devotion (avecca pasada) to the Buddha, the Dhamma, the Sangha, and has attained the Arahanthood. By the destruction of the defilements he has by his own realization gained the release, the release through wisdom, in this very life, and abides in it. The man is entirely released from the hell-state, from rebirth as an animal, he is free from the realm of hungry ghosts, fully freed from the downfall, the evil way, from the apayas.
(2). “Take the case of another man. He is endowed with unwavering devotion (avecca pasada) to the Buddha, the Dhamma, the Sangha. He has wisdom but has not yet gained full release, but has destroyed the five lower samyojana (an Anagami). Upon death, he will be reborn spontaneously in a brahma realm where he will attain Nibbaana without returning from that world. That man is also entirely released from the apayas.
(3). “Take the case of another man. He is endowed with unwavering devotion (avecca pasada) to the Buddha, the Dhamma, the Sangha. He has wisdom but he has not yet gained release. Yet by destroying the first three samyojana and weakening kama raga, patigha and avijja, he is a Once-returner (Sakadagami), who will return once more to this kama loka. That man is entirely freed from the apayas.
(4). “Take the case of another man. He is endowed with unwavering devotion (avecca pasada) to the Buddha, the Dhamma, the Sangha. But he has wisdom not gained release. Yet by destroying three fetters he is a Stream-Winner (Sotapanna), not subject to rebirth in apayas, assured of Nibbana. That man is entirely freed the apayas.
(5). “Take the case of another man. He is not even endowed with unwavering devotion (avecca pasada) to the Buddha, the Dhamma, the Sangha. He has not yet gained wisdom and has not gained release. But perhaps he has these things: the faculty of faith, of energy, of mindfulness, of concentration, of wisdom (saddha indriya, viriya indriya, sati indriya, samadhi indriya, panna indriya). And the things proclaimed by the Tathaagata are moderately understood by him with insight. That man does not go to the realm of hungry ghosts, to the downfall, to the evil way, to states of woe.
(6). “Take the case of another man. He is not even endowed with unwavering devotion (avecca pasada) to the Buddha, the Dhamma, the Sangha. He is not joyous and swift in wisdom and has not gained release. But he has just these things: the faculty of faith, of energy, of mindfulness, of concentration, of wisdom (saddha indriya, viriya indriya, sati indriya, samadhi indriya, panna indriya). And the things proclaimed by the Tathaagata are even slightly understood by him with insight. He too will not go to the apayas.
I just wanted to point out the main ideas:
Descriptions in (5) and (6) above refer to Sotapanna Anugami. He/she has not yet comprehended Tilakkhana to the stage of a Sotapanna, but is beginning to start comprehending them.
– So, it is not just blind faith in Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha. He/she has grasped at least a trace of the anicca nature.
P.S. It is important to see that there is a difference between those with magga phala (1-4) and the last two types of Sotapanna Anugamai. It seems that the last two are not really FREED from the apayas. It seems to mean that they merely will not go to apayas at the end of this bhava.
– For each of the 4 magga pahala:
“Ayampi kho, mahānāma, puggalo parimutto nirayā parimutto tiracchānayoniyā parimutto pettivisayā parimutto apāyaduggativinipātā.”
“..That man is entirely free… from the apayas.”
– For the last two types (Sotapanna Anugamai):
“Ayampi kho, mahānāma, puggalo agantā nirayaṃ agantā tiracchānayoniṃ agantā pettivisayaṃ agantā apāyaṃ duggatiṃ vinipātaṃ.”
“..That man does not go to the apayas”.
I made this update later, in response to a comment by upekkha100. See my comment on Feb 5 below.
Apparently, Sarakani did not live an immoral life (especially after attaining the Sotapanna stage). He attained the Sotapanna stage close to his death, and could not get rid of the “drinking habit” until his death.
– This is why it is dangerous to judge someone else’s status. Only that person or a Buddha can know. In some cases, even that person may not be aware of it. There is another sutta about Mahanama himself, where he had doubts about whether he himself was a Sotapanna; the Buddha confirmed that he was.P.S. The process of eliminating the ten samyojana at each stage of magga phala discussed at: “Dasa Samyōjana – Bonds in Rebirth Process“, and at “Conditions for the Four Stages of Nibbāna“.
February 11, 2019: The post,”Sōtapanna Anugāmi – No More Births in the Apāyās“, was written to clarify these issues.
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Another point I want emphasize is that anariyas should be able to have saddha.
There would appear to be 3 types of faith/devotion:
1) Blind
2) Temporary anariya saddha
3) Permanent unwavering Ariya saddha(I’d assume this is the avecca pasada)The overall/cumulative level of our sobhana vs asobhana cetasika can change from life to life. Can either increase or decrease. Can either get stronger or weaker. Depending on which cetasika we cultivate and which cetasika we neglect. Like habits. It can even change within this very life.
The asobhana cetasika are:
Lobha, dosa, moha, thina, middha, kukkucca, vicikicca, uddhacca, ditthi, mana, issa, ahirika, anotappa, maccariya.Some sobhana cetasika are:
Alobha, adosa, amoha, sati, saddha, hiri, ottappa, karuna, mudita, panna.An anariya’s lobha cetasika can decrease and his/her karuna cetasika can increase in this life. An example would be an anariya yogi who has cultivated jhana or an anariya brahma. Both are anariya, yet both would have low lobha, and high karuna. But since they are anariya, they have not locked in on those cetasika levels. These cetasika levels can be lost and change in future lives. Thus it is temporary.
Unlike that of an Ariya. An Ariya, let’s say Anagami, would also have no lobha and have high karuna like a brahma or yogi who cultivated jhana. Difference being, the Anagami has locked in on those cetasika levels. It is permanent. Those cetasika levels will not be lost nor change in future lives.
Lobha is a asobhana cetasika.
Karuna is a sobhana cetasika.If an anariya can decrease/increase lobha and karuna, then same can be done for saddha. If lobha and karuna levels can be temporary and change from life to life, same applies to saddha. Because, as listed from above, saddha is a sobhana cetasika.
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VERY IMPORTANT CORRECTION!
upekkha100 wrote:” Sotapanna Anugami are one of the 8 Ariyas and part of the 4 pairs of Ariyas. I was under the impression that all Ariyas would have avecca pasada.”
Very good point. I should have been more careful. Thank you, upekkha100!
It seems that the Sotapanna Anugami is NOT FREED from the apayas, but it merely says “does not go to apayas”. I have revised my previous post with the following addition:
It is important to see that there is a difference between those with magga phala (1-4) and the last two types of Sotapanna Anugamai. It seems that the last two are not really FREED from the apayas. It seems to mean that they merely will not go to apayas at the end of this bhava.
– For each of the 4 magga pahala:
“Ayampi kho, mahānāma, puggalo parimutto nirayā parimutto tiracchānayoniyā parimutto pettivisayā parimutto apāyaduggativinipātā.”
“..That man is entirely free… from the apayas.”
– For the last two types (Sotapanna Anugamai):
“Ayampi kho, mahānāma, puggalo agantā nirayaṃ agantā tiracchānayoniṃ agantā pettivisayaṃ agantā apāyaṃ duggatiṃ vinipātaṃ.”
“..That man does not go to the apayas”.-
Hi Lal,
Does not go to the apayas and freed from the apayas, isn’t both the same thing? Or are there any subtle differences between the 2? I also read that a Sotāpanna Anugami is unable to die before becoming a Sotāpanna. Which implies if a Sotāpanna Anugami were to die, he or she will definitely become a Sotāpanna.
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Hi Lal.
Here is the sutta that Johnny might be referring to.
Sutta SN 25.1 Cakkhusutta The Eye :
“Someone who has faith and confidence in these principles is called a follower by faith. They’ve arrived at inevitability regarding the right path, they’ve arrived at the level of the good person, and they’ve transcended the level of the bad person. They can’t do any deed which would make them be reborn in hell, the animal realm, or the ghost realm. They can’t die without realizing the fruit of stream-entry.Someone who accepts these principles after considering them with a degree of wisdom is called a follower of the teachings. They’ve arrived at inevitability regarding the right path, they’ve arrived at the level of the good person, and they’ve transcended the level of the bad person. They can’t do any deed which would make them be reborn in hell, the animal realm, or the ghost realm. They can’t die without realizing the fruit of stream-entry. Someone who understands and sees these principles is called a stream-enterer, not liable to be reborn in the underworld, bound for awakening.”
In Pali:
“Cakkhuṃ bhikkhave, aniccaṃ viparināmī1- aññathābhāvi, sotaṃ aniccaṃ viparināmī aññathābhāvī, ghānaṃ aniccaṃ viparināmī aññathābhāvī, jivhā aniccā viparināmī aññathābhāvī, kāyo anicco viparināmī aññathābhāvī, mano anicco viparināmī aññathābhāvī.
Yo bhikkhave, ime dhamme evaṃ saddahati adhivuccati, ayaṃ vuccati saddhānusārī okkanto sammattaniyāmaṃ sappurisabhumiṃ okkanto vītivatto puthujjanabhumiṃ, abhabbo taṃ kammaṃ kātuṃ yaṃ kammaṃ katvā nirayaṃ vā tiracchānayoniṃ vā pettivisayaṃ vā upapajjeyya. Abhabbo va2- tāva kālaṃ kātuṃ yāva na sotāpattiphalaṃ sacchikaroti.
Yassa kho bhikkhave, ime dhamme evaṃ paññāya mattaso nijjhānaṃ khamanti, ayaṃ vuccati dhammānusāri okkanto sammattaniyāmaṃ sappurisabhumiṃ okkanto vītivatto puthujjanabhumiṃ, abhabbo taṃ kammaṃ kātuṃ yaṃ kammaṃ katvā nirayaṃ vā tiracchānayoniṃ vā pettivisayaṃ vā upapajjeyya. Abhabbo va tāva kālaṃ kātuṃ yāva na sotāpattiphalaṃ sacchikaroti.
Yo bhikkhave, ime dhamme evaṃ jānāti3- evaṃ passati. Ayaṃ vuccati sotāpanno avinipātadhammo niyato sambodhiparāyanoti.” -
Thanks, upekkha100!
Yes. It is relevant.The key seems to be at least getting a basic idea of what is meant by anicca, dukkha, anatta nature AND how a given existence (bhava) arises due to one’s own (abhi)sankhara (as described in Paticca Samuppada).
– Once that basic idea is grasped, one may not be able to do “apayagami actions” (even under highly-tempting situations) even if one has not yet gotten to the Sotapanna phala moment. -
New post on this issue published:
“Sōtapanna Anugāmi – No More Births in the Apāyās“.Discussion can be continued at:
“Post on “Sōtapanna Anugāmi – No More Births in the Apāyās“.
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