[Saurabh@2110]

Hello sir lal.
Sir, can you please tell me how to practice dhamma so that I can attain stream entry in this life?
I take 5 precepts daily and try to keep them. I also try to follow 4 uposatha days and try to keep 8 precepts during those 4 days. I daily chant, taking refuge in triple jewels.

My concern is practice and not the theoretical part. I understand breathing meditation can lead to temporary calmness and possibly anariya jhana. So I am discouraged to practice even that as I want to be arya as soon as possible. Because I fear lower realms and I fully accept the fact that puthujana who didn’t remove defilements from his mind will inevitably fall in lower realms. This fact scares me to the core. I permanently want to eradicate causes to be born in lower realms. What should I do sir? Plz help..

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Jittananto

[Jittananto]

Hi Saurabagh! My advice for you is to surround yourself with noble people and carefully listen to sermons on the Dhamma. After listening, meditate on the teachings and apply them in your daily life. It’s said that reaching the sotāpanna stage is impossible without the guidance of someone who has reached at least the first magga phala stage. Sotapanna has different meanings—it can refer to entering the flow of liberation or listening wisely. “Sota” refers to the ability to listen and “Panna” refers to wisdom. Becoming sotāpanna is achieved through attentive listening, not by sight(for example reading).

This website is designed for those who have already attained the sotāpanna stage and wish to continue progressing. For those who have not yet reached this stage, it is important to listen to teachings and associate with people who have at least attained sotāpanna. A sotāpanna is self-reliant and can progress independently. Regardless of their actions, they will reach the stage of arahant within 7 lifetimes. However, it’s important to note that they will not engage in extreme bad behaviour. See Ratanasutta. Additionally, a sotāpanna who associates with someone who has a higher level is likely to progress more quickly than if they were to progress alone. The Maha Sangha is available to support us, but ultimately, it’s up to each individual to choose their own path. However, it is impossible to become sotāpanna alone!

The best place to find noble individuals is within the Maha Sangha (monastic community). Becoming sotāpanna is not solely achieved through self-study and practice. If that were the case, one would only need to take refuge in the Buddha and the Dhamma, rendering the Sangha unnecessary.  See Taking refuge in the Sangha involves listening to the sermons given by noble individuals and following their guidance. If any of the “jewels” (Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha) is missing, Nibbāna remains unattainable, which is why we take refuge in the Triple Gem. There are monks from the Jethavaranama Monastery in Sri Lanka who share sermons on their YouTube channels and hold private meetings with lay people. This monastery was founded by a disciple of Venerable Waharaka Thero. If you’re interested, I can refer you to them and they will do a personal online meeting!

 

See Dutiyasāriputtasutta

Upaḍḍhasutta

Sotāpattiphalasutta

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Saurabh@2110, HugoZyl, Waisaka

[Lal]

Hello Saurabh, I think you have (or had) some wrong ideas about “practicing Buddha Dhamma” (like many others.)

1. “Practicing Buddha Dhamma” starts with understanding Buddha’s teachings. The “core teaching” is that the world of 31 realms is associated with unending suffering at various levels. Even though there can be long stretches of “happiness,” suffering dominates in the long run. 

• The critical point is that comprehension of “Buddha’s worldview” at a preliminary level leads to the first stage of Nibbana, where rebirths in the apayas will stop.
• When one starts understanding Buddha’s teachings, one becomes a Sotapanna Anugami (meaning one is “on the way to be free from the apayas.”)
• However, “moral living” is essential to this learning process. It is difficult for a mind burdened with immoral thoughts to understand Buddha’s teachings, so you should keep up with that aspect; it is good that you are already doing that. 

2. The difficult part is figuring out where to start. It varies widely from person to person. I do not know the level of understanding of people who read the website. So, one should scan the various sections and figure out “where to start.”

• I suggest scanning through the following sections first:  “Three Levels of Practice,” “Living Dhamma,” and “Bhāvanā (Meditation).”

3. The following summary could help understand the fundamental axioms of Buddha Dhamma.

• The First Noble Truth points out that there is a rebirth process with no discernible beginning. Each “sentient being” endures much more suffering in the apayas than any fleeting (on the scale of the rebirth process) happiness while born infrequently in the “good realms.” 
• The second Noble Truth points out that our immoral deeds are the root cause of suffering (i.e., the cause of rebirth in lower realms). Why do we engage in immoral actions? We believe/perceive that happiness is in external “mind-pleasing things” of the world (persons of opposite sex, houses, cars, money, etc.) Therefore, our future suffering is dictated by how much we are attached to “worldly pleasures.” Another way to say the same is “saṅkhittena pañcupādānakkhandhā dukkhā.” Thus, understanding pañcupādānakkhandhā is critical; see “Essence of Buddhism – In the First Sutta.”
  (At a deeper level (which is what my current weekly posts are focused on), the belief/perception (“distorted/false sanna) that happiness is in external “mind-pleasing things” of the world is wrong. You can get there gradually and understand that aspect. )
• How our cravings for “mind-pleasing things” in the world lead to suffering is analyzed in Paticca Samuppada. 
• Once one understands Paticca Samuppada, one’s understanding of the foundations of Buddha Dhamma becomes solidified, and one’s faith in the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha (Nobel Persons; not all bhikkhus are Noble Persons) becomes unshakeable. That is when one attains the Sotapanna stage. 
• However, that first stage of understanding is not enough to attain the higher stages of Nibbana (Sakadagami, Anagami, and Arahant). But as you correctly stated, your goal is to reach the Sotapanna stage. 

4. Therefore, it is necessary to continue living a moral life (as you are doing now.) However, learning the “Buddha’s worldview” is essential to understanding how suffering is embedded in this world of 31 realms. You can also scan through the “Origin of Life” section if that approach makes sense.

• Each person is different. So, explore some of the ideas suggested above. Take your time. Feel free to ask questions as you proceed. You can ask your questions in this thread to keep track of your progress. Of course, others are also welcome to comment or ask related questions on this thread.

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Saurabh@2110, Waisaka, Yash RS

[Waisaka]

Hi brother Saurabh,   I don’t know what level your understanding is at, maybe it is higher as I think.

 But the point I want to comment on is your fear of being born in the apaya realm.

 In my opinion, this fear should not create a thick wall to move from Sila lokiya to lokutarra. I mean, you do good because there are benefits or rewards… In my understanding, this is the result of reflecting on Mr. Lal’s writing. The quality of sotapanna is truly understanding the fruitlessness of violating morals because it will lead to greater suffering.

 Then automatically the precepts will be maintained at all times until the bad traits are changed, so that the condition of being born in the apaya to bear fruit no longer exists. 

 For example, in this life, if you have a tendency to get angry you create conditions for you to end up in prison in the future (because being angry can make you hit people and so on).

 My suggestion, often discuss it / read / reflect on the concept of dhamma.. Maybe in this digital age, making friends with noble people is getting simpler, like this website, if there are no noble people in your area.

 Meditate often on anicca, dukkha, anatta, asubha or paticca samuppada, the 4 noble truths from the moment your eyes open until you fall asleep (it is difficult but you will get used to it if you do it continuously)

Try to practice the 8 fold path as much as you can..

There will be a day when You understand and know that this kind of action will close the condition to the apaya realm and know the taste of nibbana, that moment is not made up, so that your view of every moment in this world is very clear about anicca, dukkha, anatta, asubha, and will followed by your behavior or tendency to avoid moral or immoral actions based on kilesa..

I also want to ask for opinions from Mr. Lal and friends here, my thought complications:

In recent times I have been contemplating about asankhata and sankhata, in my opinion contemplating the concepts of the Buddha’s dhamma is a form of meditation for Lokutarra understanding because in the mind, we contemplate things that are rooted in VIJJA. while beings are born in samsara because they have thoughts about worldly concepts (conditioned) in the paticca samuppada pattern that is rooted in Avijja..

When continuously contemplating the concept of the Buddha’s dhamma is done, one will gain awareness to reduce attachment to world so that the shackles of the mind will collapse until reaching arahanthood..

My weakness since thinking about this concept I became lazy to meditate formally.

The advantage is that in the past from opening my eyes until falling asleep maybe my mind was 0.1% alert to bad thoughts, words, and deeds. But now it has increased maybe 2-5% in 17 hours..

Hopefully Mr. @Lal will comment on my complicated thoughts, is it deviant? Thank you🙏🙏🙏

[Lal]

Waisaka wrote: “In recent times, I have been contemplating about asankhata and sankhata; in my opinion, contemplating concepts of the Buddha’s dhamma is a form of meditation for Lokutarra understanding because that is contemplating things that are rooted in VIJJA. Beings are born in samsara because they have thoughts about worldly concepts (conditioned) in the Paticca Samuppada patterns rooted in avijja..

When continuously contemplating the concept of the Buddha’s dhamma, one will gain awareness and reduce attachment to the world so that the shackles of the mind will collapse until reaching arahanthood.

My weakness since thinking about this concept is that I became too lazy to meditate formally.”

________

I revised your comment (more in the above quote) to understand your question. I recommend using word processing software, which I have also recommended to others. There are many free online software packages, such as Google Docs.

Anyway, can you describe precisely what you contemplate by giving an example for both asankhata and sankhata? I would like to understand where the issue is. Take your time and write it using the software as suggested above. Getting one’s ideas across can be difficult, and we must try our best. Otherwise, it can lead to confusion.

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Saurabh@2110, Waisaka

[HugoZyl]

This is what one Sangha taught. 

    1.Always think about the Dhamma.

    2.Spend as much time as you can with stream-enterers.

    3.Serve other people whenever you have the chance even if it means you can’t do something you planned to do or is an inconvenience.

    4.When you have an evil thought, STOP, and say ‘Rather than doing this evil thing I will glorify the Buddha,’ then say ‘Namo Buddhaya’ 10 times.

    5.Do not use the words ‘I’, ‘me’, ‘my’ or ‘mine’ unless you have to whether with voice or thought.

    6.Notice when you experience love, joy, peace, patience, letting-go, faith, self-control, goodness, gentleness and be grateful for them.

    7.Give things away. Food, clothes, furniture, books, medicine… Be very careful when giving away money.

    8.Taste Nibbana. This is the most important step but it cannot be explained: it must be experienced.

Namo Buddhaya ☸️

 

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Saurabh@2110, Jittananto

[Lal]

Good observations!

Regarding: “5. Do not use the words ‘I’, ‘me’, ‘my’ or ‘mine’ unless you have to whether with voice or thought.”

• There is nothing wrong with using the ‘I’, ‘me’, ‘my’ or ‘mine.’ We have to use those words to live in this world. Even the Buddha used those words.
• Instead, we need to try to control our greedy actions, which are based on the false view/idea/saññā of ‘I’, ‘me’, ‘my’, or ‘mine’, i.e., trying to acquire more and more worldly things. That “greedy mindset” also leads to our actions with anger.

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Amin

[Saurabh@2110]

@Jittananto:

Thank you, respected sir, for offering me discussion with disciples of waharaka thero. I don’t know him but based on what little I’ve read about him on this website by sir Lal, I believe he was Ariya being possibly arahant!
And also thank you for the advice sir. I am trying to do most of what you said. I need more about in *how to apply?* Sir. That is what I am trying to find.

I heard that breathing meditation helps in developing first four “bodhyangas”(factors of awakening)
1) Mindfulness (sati)
2) Keen investigation of the dhamma (dhammavicaya)
3) Energy (viriya)
4) Rapture or happiness (piti)

and Vipassana insight meditation helps in developing remaining three “bodhyangas”
5) Calm (passaddhi)
6) Concentration (samadhi)
7) Equanimity (upekkha)

My question is about that, what I’ve heard above…is it right? I hope to get answer from sir Lal and offcourse other’s answers also I’ll take heed of. (Forgive my English if I am sounding rude kindly sirs)

Also by breathing meditation I mean staying witness at the area of nostrils and being aware of nature of incoming and outgoing breath. Also I ‘feel’ jhana(anariya offcourse) is entered or starts when one reaches pitisukha and ignores breathing and then latches on that resultant pitisukha and (forcibly) going for ‘thoughtlessness’ in order to increase that pitisukha more and more ignoring and forgetting breathing. But in breathing meditation (as I know it) one is supposed to stay aware of breathing continuously, even if one attains pitisukha still one is supposed to stay aware of breathing only.
Pitisukha starts when, as one witnesses breathing with more and more awareness one detaches more and more from his thoughts and as one becomes more and more aware of breathing with lessening of distractions of thinking and thoughts, the breathing becomes smaller and smaller and fades away altogether after some time and gets replaced by pitisukha slowly slowly.
So in anariya jhana(by default) once concentration is attained with the help of focusing on breathing, and then one focuses on resultant pitisukha/rapture generated moving away from breathing (this is I believe a reason why it’s called anariya jhana as one clings).
In simpler words true breathing meditation involves continuous awareness of breathing and even pitisukha is to be treated as distraction. Because goal of breathing meditation is “taking in of purities/good qualities(good thoughts) and taking out/removing away/getting rid of impurities/good qualities(good thoughts)

Now this is what I believe, plz correct me if I am wrong respected sirs. Am I right here?

Also if successful breathing meditation does not mean to forget breathing even if one reaches pitisukha, then is it right to say that this kind of breathing meditation helps in developing first four factors of awakening?

If yes then I should continue to (try to) do this kind of breathing-awareness meditation and if I am not right then I’ll have to change my ways I guess. Because I want to practice so that I’ll go closer to nibbana and possibly attaining stream-entry in this life only. Thank you sirs. Sorry I sometimes sound rude because my English isn’t that good.

P.S. – I have read too many variety things and now because of that I am too much confused and find it hard to know what is correct way of practicing dhamma to attain nibbana and what is not. I am seeking guidance here.

[Saurabh@2110]

@Waisaka:

Thank you for the explanation. My understanding is actually not higher or lower but I believe it is sort of messed up because of reading too much unnecessarily. It’s hard for me to know what is right way of practice (for me, of course) and what is not.

I daily try to reflect on impermanence and daily chant “triratna Vandana” (homage to triple jewel chant)

It’s actually very hard for me to follow all the things you told me in the above message, such as asubha and paticca samuppada. It’s overwhelming. I’ll try to start them gradually. Thank you!

[Saurabh@2110]

Waisaka wrote:

The quality of sotapanna is truly understanding the fruitlessness of violating morals because it will lead to greater suffering.

Wow this is what I want to reach sir. I feel whenever I try not to break precept I do that forcefully and not naturally. I wonder how and when moral behaviour becomes natural and not forced!

[Lal]

Hello Saurabh,

I want to make two suggestions for commenting on the forum. This applies to everyone, so please don’t be offended.

1. It is unnecessary to quote the entire comment by another person.

• It is a good idea to quote part of a comment (like in your last comment above) and express your thoughts about it. 
• In other cases, refer to someone’s quote by indicating his/her name (as I have revised your other two comments above.)

2. I have revised some of your comments above to make them a bit more clear.

• I recommend using word processing software, which I have also recommended to others. There are many free online software packages, such as Google Docs.
• It is hard enough to express our thoughts in words, so we need to make an effort to convey our ideas as clearly as possible. The message/ideas can get lost with grammar errors.

3. I will think about your comments/questions and will comment later today. In the meantime, I hope others will also provide their suggestions.

P.S. Sorry about the delay in replying. I live in a different time zone (United States). You are probably in India.

[Saurabh@2110]

Lal wrote:

It is a good idea to quote part of a comment (like in your last comment above) and express your thoughts about it. 
In other cases, refer to someone’s quote by indicating his/her name (as I have revised your other two comments above.)

Sorry about that sir I got it now. I ll keep it in mind from now on.

Ok sir it’s alright reply whenever it’s possible for you I’ll wait.

Others are also welcome to comment. Thank you!

Lal wrote:

You are probably in India.

Yes exactly sir.

[Saurabh@2110]

Lal wrote:

It is hard enough to express our thoughts in words, so we need to make an effort to convey our ideas as clearly as possible. The message/ideas can get lost with grammar errors.

Hello sir I will explain my question again in simple and concise manner now.

1) I have heard that ‘mindfulness of breathing’ meditation helps in developing first four ‘bodhyangas’ (factors of awakening):
>Mindfulness (sati)
>Keen investigation of the dhamma
(dhammavicaya)
>Energy (viriya)
>Rapture or happiness (piti)

And Vipassana-insight meditation helps in developing remaining last three ‘bodhyangas’ (factors of awakening):

>Calm (passaddhi)
>Concentration (samadhi)
>Equanimity (upekkha)

(Let me ignore this Vipassana insight meditation part and instead talk about breathing meditation part, for now, at least)

2) Mindfulness of breathing (as I know it) involves witnessing breathing in and breathing out by staying aware of breathing at the area of nostrils…all distractions will (in the form of thoughts and doubts) come but still one is supposed to bring one’s mind again and again back to awareness of breathing. Process should be continued till one can constantly be aware of breathing without any distractions. It is a constant fight against all the thoughts and distractions.

3) In another case When one makes one’s mind thoughtless by trying not to focus it anywhere and suppressing distractions and then one (can) starts to experience some form of happiness above the happiness from 5 sense organs, which is also kind of ‘pitisukha'(this is not the same as 4th factor of awakening but something like that)(this is how anariya jhana starts I suppose because in anariya jhana one suppresses thoughts without realising the truth of their impermanence)(same as anariya gods who achiev birth in heaven by directly doing punna kamma without getting rid of tendencies to do papa kamma), then in order to start and attain and experience anariya jhana one is supposed to focus on that pitisukha like happiness or rather an anariya being naturally at this point by default latches onto that pitisukha like happiness as soon as it arises because it is also some overwhelming happiness. Now this can be done/reached by initially taking the help of mindfulness of breathing meditation also.

4) Through mindfulness of breathing meditation initially one can make one’s mind concentrated and can(without having to deal with distractions of mind) start to directly experience some kind of pitisukha by moving focus away from breathing and directing it to becoming thoughtless (by suppressing thoughts with force initially) to focus mind(achieve ekaggata) and make it more & more empty of distractions/thoughts resulting in experience of some kind of pitisukha.
So generally when one starts mindfulness of breathing meditation ..with practice, first many many thoughts/distractions come and they are suppressed or forcibly ignored and then they fade away(due to suppression) then breathing fades away and then as a result pitisukha arises in such focused mind and then anariya person latches onto it.(But this is not the proper way of mindfulness of breathing meditation). This is how anariya jhana is started I suppose.

5) Now true mindfulness of breathing meditation involves continuously staying aware of in-out breathing and even pitisukha is not to be latched on and when pitisukha arises still one is supposed to stay aware of one’s breathing only. Actually it’s very very very hard to reach pitisukha if one practices proper mindfulness of breathing meditation. (I am talking this in the case when general anariya persons practices “proper/true” mindfulness of breathing meditation and I am not talking about ariya people sirs). So one is supposed to not let breathing fade away(by default it starts to fade away by becoming smaller and smaller as mind becomes less and less distracted). When breathing starts to fade away one is supposed to apply slight force to breathing (which has become so small now) just enough to increase the awareness of breathing and not let it fade away. Now as one works to constantly stay aware of breathing, first factor of awakening which is –
>mindfulness or ‘sati’ starts to develop and as one continues one is forced to deal with all the impure thoughts/doubts that arise in mind as we continue. So one’s observation of one’s thoughts actually increases and they are seen as ‘anitya'(impermanent) as they fade away after arising continuously and this is what I believe helps in developing the second ‘bodhyanga'(factor of awakening) which is –
>keen investigation of the dhamma (dhammavicaya) in the form of contemplation of impermanence of thoughts and then as one practices regularly one simultaneously develops 3rd factor of energy or ‘viriya’ as one is practicing continuously, fighting continuosly and after working like that only then one reaches the pitisukha(which is the 4th factor of awakening).
*Because of doing this kind of proper mindfulness of breathing meditation (I believe) one reaches a state when one is constantly aware of his breathing without any thoughts or distractions and simultaneously one’s mind is filled with pitisukha also!* But to reach this state one has to get rid of/be done away with all the deeper and deeper distractions and doubts that come to one’s mind on the way by seeing their impermanence. And this is actually very easier said than done!

So my first question is this… Is there any mistake in my above all the 5 points? If yes then please clarify and kindly correct me 🙏

My second question is, considering above 5 points, is it right to say that ‘mindfulness of breathing’ meditation if done truly(as I tried to explain above), it can, help in developing first 4 factors of awakening instead of reaching anariya jhana??

[Lal]

Thank you for making the effort to write concisely.

I highlighted two critical statements you made in the first part of your comment.

• I can see how one could think “focusing on the breath” could be equated to “mindfulness.” (It is not. I will explain in a future comment.)
• Since focusing on the breath keeps a mind away from defiled thoughts (those with raga, dosa, moha), it also provides a “relief to the mind” (which one may experience as “piti/sukha.”), and that may give an incentive to do more (i.e., viriya.) (But that effect is temporary. I will explain in a future comment.)

Can you explain how “focusing on the breath” leads to a “keen investigation of the dhamma”?

P.S. Also, what do you mean by “dhamma”?

[Lal]

I read through the rest of your comment to understand what you mean by “dhamma.” You seem to describe it as follows:

“keen investigation of the dhamma (dhammavicaya) in the form of contemplation of impermanence of thoughts..”

• Is that what you mean by dhamma? “contemplation of impermanence of thoughts”?

If so, how would that lead to Nibbana?

• In a related question, what do you understand by “Nibbana“?
• In other words, what is the goal of your practice?

P.S. There are still many grammar issues. You can ask a free AI program like ChatGPT or Grok to check your grammar. It is not hard, making it easier for the readers to understand your comments.

[Saurabh@2110]

Sir thank you for giving your time. I’ll try to answer each of your questions one by one.

Lal wrote:

I can see how one could think “focusing on the breath” could be equated to “mindfulness.” (It is not. I will explain in a future comment.)
Since focusing on the breath keeps a mind away from defiled thoughts (those with raga, dosa, moha), it also provides a “relief to the mind” (which one may experience as “piti/sukha.”), and that may give an incentive to do more (i.e., viriya.) (But that effect is temporary. I will explain in a future comment.)

Sir, in my opinion, by focusing on breathing it may lead one away from thoughts and towards temporary relief but being mindful of breathing forces one to deal with all those thoughts and know their impermanent nature and weakens the tendency of ‘holding on’ or tendency of ‘clinging’ on to them. This is just my opinion.(Btw I haven’t experienced pitisukha yet in my life)

But in any case I don’t think even mindfulness of breathing gives permanent eradication of defiled thoughts. It’s more of temporary solution.

So I completely accept what you said in above 2 points.

Lal wrote:

Can you explain how “focusing on the breath” leads to a “keen investigation of the dhamma”?

Sir by ‘keen investigation of dhamma’ I believe it means ‘seeing the impermanence of all the thoughts/distractions’. Am I right here sir?

Lal wrote:

Also, what do you mean by “dhamma”?

I meant the ‘nature of impermanence’ ‘anityabodh’ by the word ‘dhamma’. I guess I am wrong here, ain’t I sir?

Lal wrote:

Is that what you mean by dhamma? “contemplation of impermanence of thoughts”?

Yes exactly sir. I guess I am wrong here as well??

Lal wrote:

If so, how would that lead to Nibbana?

No sir I don’t think it will(help to) lead to nibbana(not directly atleast)and that is why I am asking here how to practice in order to reach nibbana. But I believe this is preparatory step? Am I right sir?

Lal wrote:

In a related question, what do you understand by “Nibbana“?

Highest wellbeing… when mind is freed from three poisons of raga, dvesha and moha? For example one becomes arhat when one’s volition/intention becomes free. In my understanding I believe after one glimpses nibbana for the first time, one becomes unable to do those akusala kammas which will lead him to apaya realms as one has understood what action or thought will take one where. I mean anriya person like me who has read some suttas may understand that there is no ‘I’ present in me but my cetana does not know that. It’s like I believe fire burns but I have never touched fire ever so I merely believe fire burns but my cetana is not aware of that. So my cetana is not free but an arhat person’s cetana has become free. Am I right sir?

Lal wrote:

In other words, what is the goal of your practice?

To have glimpse of nibbana in this life only.

Please correct me sir!🙏

Lal wrote:

P.S. There are still many grammar issues. You can ask a free AI program like ChatGPT or Grok to check your grammar. It is not hard, making it easier for the readers to understand your comments.

Sorry about that sir. From next post I’ll definitely do that.

[Saurabh@2110]

Lal wrote:

Each person is different. So, explore some of the ideas suggested above. Take your time. Feel free to ask questions as you proceed. You can ask your questions in this thread to keep track of your progress. Of course, others are also welcome to comment or ask related questions on this thread.

Yes sir I am exploring topics you suggested above. There are many many of them! I was searching for something like ‘do it daily and you will reach nibbana’. But I guess that’s not how it works.

[Lal]

You wrote: “But in any case, I don’t think even mindfulness of breathing gives permanent eradication of defiled thoughts. It’s more of temporary solution.”

• That is correct, and that is the bottom line. 
• So, I don’t think we need to discuss whether “breathing meditation” can lead to Nibbana. It simply cannot.
• Do I need to answer any other questions in your above comment? If so, please point them out. I think they are all related to this issue.
• I will make some comments on how to cultivate the path to Nibbana. It may take a day or two.

By the way, I entered your above quote in Google Docs, and it immediately corrected the errors as follows: 

“But in any case, I don’t think even mindfulness of breathing permanently eradicates defiled thoughts. It’s more of a temporary solution.”

• Can you see how easy it is to generate a better comment?
• Please compose your comments (especially the lengthy ones) in Google Docs. It is free. There are other free word-processing software, too. I hope others will follow this advice, too.

P.S. You made the following comment while I was responding to the earlier one: “Yes sir I am exploring topics you suggested above. There are many many of them! I was searching for something like ‘do it daily and you will reach nibbana’. But I guess that’s not how it works.”

• Understanding Buddha’s teachings takes an effort. 

1 user thanked author for this post.

Saurabh@2110

[Tobi-Wan Kenobi]

Hello Saurabh@2110.

In my opinion, you describe the cultivation of Anariya Jhana. Anariya Jhana is a taste of the rupa and arupa realms. Even if one could deepen their concentration to the point of being able to cut off limbs without feeling anything, that would still not be proof.

How can one free oneself from the 10 fetters (Samyojana) through breath meditation??????🙄

1. Belief in a permanent self (sakkāya-diṭṭhi)
2. Skeptical doubt (vicikicchā)
3. Attachment to mere rules and rituals (sīlabbata-parāmāsa)
4. Sensual desire (kāma-rāga, kāmacchando)
5. Hostility (vyāpāda, byāpādo)<br />
   ————–(The following are the 5 higher fetters)——————
6. Desire for fine material existence (rūpa-rāga)
7. Desire for immaterial existence (arūpa-rāga)
8. Pride (māna)
9. Restlessness (uddhacca)
10. Ignorance (avijjā)    

Consider which of these points is suppressed by concentration on the breath, and which ones do not arise again after meditation.… 🙏🙏🙏

2 users thanked author for this post.

HugoZyl, Saurabh@2110

[HugoZyl]

@Tobi-Wan Kenobi

Dear one in Dhamma

  Would the fact that you are using an alias instead of your real name not also indicate that your form of meditation is not working to remove the fetters?

Namo Buddhaya ☸️

[Lal]

@ HugoZyl: I don’t think it is a valid point. 

• Let us stick to the teachings of the Buddha. I will post a comment later today, and we can discuss that.

[Lal]

I have written the following comment, which I plan to post next week as a regular post. In the meantime, we can discuss and revise it to address further questions.

Attaining Nibbāna Requires Understanding Buddha’s Worldview 

Summary: Nibbāna cannot be reached by following a set of rituals. It requires understanding how the Buddha described the world that we live in. That worldview vastly differs from all the worldviews humans (no matter how intelligent) have ever proposed. Attaining Nibbāna requires a mindset change.

Too Many Myths/Misconceptions About Nibbāna

1. Many versions of Buddhism or Buddha Dhamma are being practiced today.

• One common misconception is that if one can follow the five (or eight) precepts and engage in “meditation,” one can attain Nibbāna. Here, “meditation” refers explicitly to “breath meditation.” 
• A good example is the “Vipassanā meditation” method by the late S.N. Goenka. We have had many discussions on the forum regarding this program. See, for example, “About Vipassanā-insight technique taught by teacher S.N. Goenka” and “Goenka´s Vipassanā.”
• Here, I will describe the framework of the path to Nibbāna according to the Tipiṭaka, the Pāli Scriptures written down by a group of Arahants at the Fourth Buddhist Council two thousand years ago. 

Rāga, Dosa, Moha – Root Causes of a Stressed Mind

2. Many people become faithful believers in “breath meditation” because it helps calm the mind. For those who have experienced that calming effect, it provides solid evidence that one can control one’s mind and make it calm. However, the negative aspect of that experience is that people get addicted to it and do not realize that it is only a temporary solution to a long-term problem.

• To investigate this issue further, let’s examine the root causes of a stressed mind.
• Think about the status of our minds while going through life. When we are attracted to something, our minds become agitated because we have a nagging feeling of the need to fulfill that desire. In other words, greedy thoughts make a mind agitated. The root cause is “rāga” or “craving for worldly things.”
• If one gets angry, his mind gets heated, and the anger shows in the face, too. The result is an uncomfortable, heated mind. Usually, the origin of that anger is the craving for something and not getting it. For example, if two men pursue the same woman, they may become enemies and get into heated arguments. Here, the root cause for an unsettled mind is dosa or anger/hate.
• Then, there are situations where a mind becomes dull, lazy, and depressed. The root cause here is moha or avijjā, which we will clarify below.

Rāga, Dosa, Moha Lead to Suffering in Future Lives Too

3. The Buddha pointed out that the three root causes of rāga, dosa, and moha are responsible for our suffering in this life. In addition—and even more importantly—our actions based on rāga, dosa, and moha also dictate suffering in future lives. 

• Both aspects can be explained via the laws of kamma (or Paṭicca Samuppāda.) Our actions with rāga, dosa, and moha in mind lead to immoral deeds (called papa kamma) that can bring adverse results (kamma vipaka) in this life or future lives. 
• But how can we stop such thoughts with rāga, dosa, and moha rising in our minds?
• That requires a lengthy explanation. However, the first stage is to understand that the problem of suffering is not restricted to this life. We must understand how and why suffering does not end at death and continues into future lives via a rebirth process. 
• This website provides evidence of the rebirth process and other details. This post summarizes the framework of the “big picture” necessary to get a preliminary idea of Buddha’s teachings.

An Analogy of a Glass of Water

4. The Buddha used various analogies to describe how a mind becomes agitated, heated, or lethargic under different conditions.

• A “stress-free mind” is like a tall glass of pure water. That suffering-free mind is called a “pabhassara mind.” Thoughts arising in a pabhassara mind are like clear water poured from that glass of pure water. They are not immoral or moral, just neutral. 
• The mind of a puthujjana (average human) is like a tall glass of water with fine mud particles. If left undisturbed, all the mud will settle at the bottom of the glass, and the water on top will look clean. If we gently pour some water, it will look like pure water. In the same way, when in a calm situation (e.g., while in breath meditation), our thoughts appear to be “neutral” without causing stress. 
• However, that water can be disturbed by stirring it with a straw, and then some mud at the bottom comes up, making the water muddy. Pouring some muddy water out is analogous to generating “defiled thoughts.”
• Thus, in that analogy, layers of mud accumulated at the bottom of the glass are analogous to defiled gati or “saṁsāric bonds” (“saṁyojana“) in Buddha’s teachings.

Gati and Saṁyojana – Root Causes Triggering Rāga, Dosa, Moha

5. The Buddha pointed out that a suffering-free state of mind is hidden by ten layers of “saṁsāric bonds” called saṁyojana (the reason for calling them “saṁsāric bonds” will become clear later.) Three of the ten layers lead to wrong views (diṭṭhi, part of moha/avijjā), five to rāga, and three to moha/avijjā. We attach to “worldly things” with taṇhā based on the diṭṭhi and rāga. Thus, our defiled thoughts arise due to taṇhā and avijjā, as explained in some suttās. 

• These ten saṁyojana stay hidden until a tempting sensory input is encountered. Depending on the sensory input, all or some of the ten saṁyojana can be “triggered” by that sensory input. For example, seeing a beautiful woman can trigger kāma rāga saṁyojana in a man. The sight of an enemy can trigger the paṭigha saṁyojana and generate anger.
• The five types of “defiled gati” play a similar role as the ten saṁyojana. They represent different aspects. For example, an “animal gati” (which is in all puthujjana) can be triggered by a strong sensory input, for instance, in the case of a rape or killing.  

Temporary Calm Versus Permanent Calm (Nibbāna)

6. Thus, a mind can get to “samadhi,” or a “peaceful state of mind,” if the mind is prevented from being exposed to sensory experiences of daily life. The longer one can stay in such an “isolated environment” (like a meditation retreat), the longer the experience can last. This is why ancient yogis went into deep jungles to be away from sesnory inputs that can trigger “saṁyojana” or “gati” and trigger rāga, dosa, and moha defilements come to the surface.

• It is only by understanding the reasons for those “saṁyojana” or “gati” to exist that we can start breaking the “saṁsāric bonds” or “saṁyojana” (equivalently to get rid of various “gati“).
• When one starts grasping Buddha’s worldview (and understanding how suffering arises), the first three saṁyojanās are permanently removed at the Sotapanna stage. This involves the removal of sakkāya diṭṭhi and two other diṭṭhi saṁyojana.
• At the subsequent two stages of Sakadāgāmi and Anāgāmi, one would comprehend how kāma rāga (and paṭigha or dosa) arises due to “distorted/false saññā” (associated with existences in kāma loka) that we discuss briefly below in #9. 
• Two more types of rāga (rupa rāga and arupa rāga) are removed by an Anāgāmi by contemplating the “distorted/false saññā” associated with the Brahma realms. Avijja and two other saṁyojanās associated with avijjā are also removed at the Arahant stage.

Analogy of a Glass of Pure Water

7. Once all ten saṁyojanās are broken (and the five major gati removed), that is like permanently removing the mud at the bottom of a glass in the analogy of #4 above.

• As we saw in #6 above, removing the ten saṁyojanās at various stages of Nibbāna is analogous to removing layers of mud at the bottom of the glass.
• Once all the mud in the glass is removed, the water will remain pure no matter how much one tries to stir it with a straw. 
• In the same way, the mind of an Arahant will be pure no matter where he lives. He can live among the most beautiful women, and no sensual thoughts will arise. That is also true for an Anāgāmi who has removed kāma rāga and paṭigha saṁyojana.
• A Sotapanna has only understood the basic framework and would still attach to the “distorted/false saññā” associated with sensual sensory inputs in kāma loka. However, since they have removed the three ditthis (especially sakkāya diṭṭhi), their minds cannot be disturbed to the extent of committing “apāyāgāmi kamma,” which can lead to rebirths in the apāyās. Thus, they are permanently free of rebirths in the four lowest realms (apāyās.)

Saṁsāric Bonds (Saṁyojana) Can be Removed Only with Wisdom (Paññā)

8. The Buddha taught that all those root causes can be traced back to avijjā (or moha), generally translated as “ignorance.” The “ignorance” is not to realize the world’s true nature. This is critical because attaining Nibbāna (or becoming free of suffering) requires comprehending Buddha’s worldview (how suffering arises) and dispelling avijjā. 

• Thus, attaining Nibbāna critically depends on cultivating wisdom (paññā) by understanding the root causes of avijjā. Even though living a moral life is necessary, Nibbāna cannot be reached by following a set of rituals.
• Instead of using the ten saṁyojana, we could also say the same using five “main gati” (pronounced “gathi.”) The closest translation of “gati” is “character/habits.” One attains Nibbāna by removing all five gati. But those five gati can be split into various types. The main point here is that one’s habits (based on character) determine one’s actions, i.e., kamma generation. Posts related to these terms can be found using the “Search” box on the top right.

Root Cause of Taṇhā = “Distorted/False Saññā“

9. Humans have an innate idea/perception (Buddha used the Pāli word “saññā” to label it) that things in the world are “on a solid footing” and can be relied on to achieve happiness. That saññā seems natural at any given moment when we make our decisions.

• However, if we consider what happens in the world over a long time, it becomes clear that everything in the world is “impermanent” and is on an “unstable foundation.” We all get old and die; the same applies to all animals, trees, or structures we build. Scientists now confirm that even the stars like our Sun and planets like Earth will be destroyed. 
• In other posts, we have discussed how this world of “impermanence of things” arises (or is maintained) via the collective minds of all sentient beings defiled with rāga, dosa, and moha. As discussed in many posts, the “impermanence of things in the world” is a consequence of not comprehending the anicca nature of the world. Instead, we have a mindset of “nicca nature,” i.e., a “distorted/false saññā” about things in the world.
• Thus, it is critical to note that impermanence is associated with “things in the world,” and “anicca nature” is a “state of mind” realized after comprehending Buddha’s teachings. Until then, one has the mindset of “nicca nature” (i.e., the world is on a solid foundation to provide happiness) based on the “distorted/false saññā” about things in the world. This paragraph contains the essence of Buddha’s teachings and requires a lengthy explanation. This website describes various ways to get there.
• These days, most English translations translate “anicca” and “impermanence,” which is a grave error! By the way, the Sanskrit word “anitya” means “impermanence,” but it is not the same as the Pāli word “anicca.”

2 users thanked author for this post.

HugoZyl, Saurabh@2110

[Saurabh@2110]

Lal wrote:

Do I need to answer any other questions in your above comment? If so, please point them out. I think they are all related to this issue

Sir, it’s alright, you don’t have to answer them as I have started to get what you are saying. Can you just answer another related question please!
1) Can developing all the seven factors of awakening lead one to nibbana?
2) If it can lead one to nibbana then how do I develop all of them? Is there any practice for that?
If one cannot attain nibbana solely by developing all the 7 factors of awakening then anyways I am sticking with your previously given answers.
In any case I wish to know how do I reach/cultivate the path to nibbana in this life only. So I am seeking answers in this context only.

Lal wrote:

Can you see how easy it is to generate a better comment?
Please compose your comments (especially the lengthy ones) in Google Docs. It is free. There are other free word-processing software, too. I hope others will follow this advice, too.

Yes sir I have downloaded it and I’ll definitely use that for my next lengthy comments. Thank you!

[Saurabh@2110]

Lal wrote:

These days, most English translations translate “anicca” and “impermanence,” which is a grave error! By the way, the Sanskrit word “anitya” means “impermanence,” but it is not the same as the Pāli word “anicca.”

I perfectly understood this part sir.

Lal wrote:

if we consider what happens in the world over a long time, it becomes clear that everything in the world is “impermanent” and is on an “unstable foundation.” We all get old and die; the same applies to all animals, trees, or structures we build. Scientists now confirm that even the stars like our Sun and planets like Earth will be destroyed. 
In other posts, we have discussed how this world of “impermanence of things” arises (or is maintained) via the collective minds of all sentient beings defiled with rāga, dosa, and moha. As discussed in many posts, the “impermanence of things in the world” is a consequence of not comprehending the anicca nature of the world. Instead, we have a mindset of “nicca nature,” i.e., a “distorted/false saññā” about things in the world.

I’ll keep on contemplating above quote now!

[Lal]

Saurabh asked: “1) Can developing all the seven factors of awakening lead one to nibbana?
2) If it can lead one to nibbana then how do I develop all of them? Is there any practice for that?”

I hope you read my comment above carefully before starting on the seven awakening factors. It appears that you read through my comment in a few minutes. Reading and understanding are two different things.

• The seven awakening factors (at least the Noble version leading to Nibbana) can be cultivated only by a Sotapanna.
• One must first understand the basic framework of Buddha’s worldview to become a Sotapanna. That means realizing the anicca nature of the world. Do you understand the meaning of “anicca nature”? If not, I can recommend some posts. 

If anyone has questions about my comment above, I can answer them. It is critical to understand those basics.

[Saurabh@2110]

Lal wrote:

I hope you read my comment above carefully before starting on the seven awakening factors. It appears that you read through my comment in a few minutes. Reading and understanding are two different things.

Sir actually I asked my above 2 questions about if seven factors of awakening lead to nibbana and about how to cultivate them before I could see your following post…

Lal wrote:

Summary: Nibbāna cannot be reached by following a set of rituals. It requires understanding how the Buddha described the world that we live in. That worldview vastly differs from all the worldviews humans (no matter how intelligent) have ever proposed. Attaining Nibbāna requires a mindset change.

Too Many Myths/Misconceptions About Nibbāna

The page took time to update. I could see your latest detailed post only after I posted my 2 questions about 7 factors.

But after that I carefully read it and only then I posted my following replies.

Saurabh@2110 wrote:

I’ll keep on contemplating above quote now!

Now Sir I have some questions regarding your detailed post..

Lal wrote:

6. Thus, a mind can get to “samadhi,” or a “peaceful state of mind,” if the mind is prevented from being exposed to sensory experiences of daily life. The longer one can stay in such an “isolated environment” (like a meditation retreat), the longer the experience can last. This is why ancient yogis went into deep jungles to be away from sesnory inputs that can trigger “saṁyojana” or “gati” and trigger rāga, dosa, and moha defilements come to the surface.

Sir I perfectly understood above part of your post along with analogy of a glass of water given by you.

Lal wrote:

if we consider what happens in the world over a long time, it becomes clear that everything in the world is “impermanent” and is on an “unstable foundation.” We all get old and die; the same applies to all animals, trees, or structures we build. Scientists now confirm that even the stars like our Sun and planets like Earth will be destroyed.

I feel I should keep on reflecting on this above part of post regularly because I should understand that first. I feel like I have just accepted it from surface but it hasn’t reached to my very core. I hope reflecting upon it and carefully studying through the topics you mentioned in above post will help me in that. I am gonna read your above detailed post again many times and I’ll ask questions if there are any. But what else I should do other than reflecting and reading and trying to understand those topics in detail??
Btw Thank you very much for that detailed post sir!

Lal wrote:

The seven awakening factors (at least the Noble version leading to Nibbana) can be cultivated only by a Sotapanna.

So sir, is it wrong if I am trying to practice anything to develop any of the 4 factors of awakening without being sotapanna? I mean I am not sotapanna so I should not try to understand/study about those 7 factors now right?

[Lal]

“Sir actually I asked my above 2 questions about if seven factors of awakening lead to nibbana and about how to cultivate them before I could see your following post…”

• OK. That explains what happened.
• Your other comments below clarify that you are contemplating my long post. The main point is that Nibbana can be reached only by dispelling raga, dosa, and moha by cultivating wisdom (panna.) 
• In my analogy of the glass of water, the mud can be removed by a physical process (by scooping it out or filtering using a filter). However, the defilements in a mind (samyojana/gati) can be removed only by wisdom (panna.)

To address the question you raised at the end: “So sir, is it wrong if I am trying to practice anything to develop any of the 4 factors of awakening without being sotapanna? I mean I am not sotapanna so I should not try to understand/study about those 7 factors now right?”

• There are two versions of the “eightfold path,” “seven factors of enlightenment,” “Satipatthana,” etc. There is a mundane version and a Noble version.
• The Buddha discussed that in the “Mahā­cat­tārīsa­ka Sutta (MN 117).” I have written a post “Mahā Cattārisaka Sutta (Discourse on the Great Forty)” to discuss it, but I think a simpler discussion is probably needed. Anyway, you can read both and ask questions.
• Most people practice the mundane versions. The Noble versions can be practiced only after understanding the world’s “anicca nature.” 
• To become a Sotapanna and start on the noble path, one must practice the mundane versions and live a moral life. So, one should practice regardless. The practice automatically turns to the Noble version as one starts grasping the “anicca nature” and gradually removing sakkaya ditthi. 
• Buddha’s actual teachings have been underground for a long time. Most translators of the Pali Tipitaka (including suttas) today understand only the mundane versions. We cannot blame ourselves or the translators because that is what we have been taught for generations. Waharaka Thero (who has now passed away) was born a Sotapanna (meaning he had attained the Sotapanna stage in a previous life) and was responsible for uncovering the true meanings of many concepts. 

 

[Christian]

1. Keeping precepts is not enough, it’s good but you need to see “bad” things and why they are bad. Keeping precepts is not a “vow” or “exercise” – it’s the result of insight and wisdom that you gain through understanding Dhamma
2. You need to have a properly realized teacher who can speak to you directly about progress and your understanding. It’s very hard to do it on your own. There are videos of certain teachers that explain the true nature https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qk8UenDhipg
3. Read thru the site too
4. Meditate using kammasthana (chanting like “Ethan Santhan Ethan Paneethan”)

It takes time to mature because your progress is limited by your own understanding and inborn qualities. You should not give up even if the progress is slow as there is no other way out of Sansara

1 user thanked author for this post.

Jittananto

[Jittananto]

To complete your comment, Christian. It is simply impossible to become sotāpanna alone. A puthujunas must associate with a person who is at least sotāpanna, to become one. Your suggestion of a master who follows our progress is perfect!

 

See Sotāpattiphalasutta

Dutiyasāriputtasutta

Upaḍḍhasutta

1 user thanked author for this post.

Saurabh@2110

[HugoZyl]

Thank you all for taking much precious time to write detailed instructions which are highly commendable and follows the precious Dhamma. 🙏🙏🙏

Namo Buddhaya ☸️

[Saurabh@2110]

Lal wrote:

There are two versions of the “eightfold path,” “seven factors of enlightenment,” “Satipatthana,” etc. There is a mundane version and a Noble version.

Understood sir.

Lal wrote:

The Buddha discussed that in the “Mahā­cat­tārīsa­ka Sutta (MN 117).” I have written a post “Mahā Cattārisaka Sutta (Discourse on the Great Forty)” to discuss it, but I think a simpler discussion is probably needed. Anyway, you can read both and ask questions.

I read both versions sir. In that sutta buddha says that right view, right effort and right mindfulness and all three of these things are kind of go/grow together(in non-linear way) and keep circling and running around right view only. I don’t have any questions about that, I accepted that and now I am trying to understand and apply it.

Lal wrote:

Most people practice the mundane versions. The Noble versions can be practiced only after understanding the world’s “anicca nature.” 
To become a Sotapanna and start on the noble path, one must practice the mundane versions and live a moral life. So, one should practice regardless. The practice automatically turns to the Noble version as one starts grasping the “anicca nature” and gradually removing sakkaya ditthi.

I think this answers my question sir! So I will have to stick with practice which is off course mundane version and eventually if I practice with enough wisdom I may reach their noble version some day! I believe as one continues to live with right view aniccha nature will surely become apparent step by step. Atleast I hope so.

Lal wrote:

Buddha’s actual teachings have been underground for a long time. Most translators of the Pali Tipitaka (including suttas) today understand only the mundane versions. We cannot blame ourselves or the translators because that is what we have been taught for generations. Waharaka Thero (who has now passed away) was born a Sotapanna (meaning he had attained the Sotapanna stage in a previous life) and was responsible for uncovering the true meanings of many concepts.

Wow I am glad that he was born…if he weren’t born I don’t think I would have gotten this opportunity of taking guidance from you or anyone here sir Lal. Thank you so much. 🙏

Before whenever I had any query about dhamma I used to directly search it on Google and would try to read many answers from many links. But now whenever I have any such doubt I search it on Google only, but I add the word ‘puredhamma’ during searching so that I will get explanation from this website only this website truly shows pure dhamma of nobles as if any noble being directly talking and I am confident about this.

So my aim now is to study all the posts from this website and that way I will definitely not go wrong.

[Saurabh@2110]

Jittananto wrote:

To complete your comment, Christian. It is simply impossible to become sotāpanna alone. A puthujunas must associate with a person who is at least sotāpanna, to become one. Your suggestion of a master who follows our progress is perfect!

Yes sir and I believe following sir lal sort of fulfils that requirment. (atleast for me)

Thank you for pointing this out sir!

[Lal]

@Saurabh:

 To become a Sotapanna, it is essential to understand Paticca Samuppada. You may want to peruse this section: “Paṭicca Samuppāda in Plain English“

• Another approach is to get an idea about anicca, dukkha, anatta (Tilakkhana). You could start here: “Anicca – True Meaning.” The following section has audio files I recorded some time back: “Three Marks of Existence – English Discourses“
• OR, you may already have an idea of where to start.
• The key is to start from a point with some definite traction. You can feel that instinctively when you encounter the right “area.”  Once you get some traction, there is no stopping!

[Saurabh@2110]

Lal wrote:

To become a Sotapanna, it is essential to understand Paticca Samuppada. You may want to peruse this section: “Paṭicca Samuppāda in Plain English“

Sir I have started this section today. I think it will take me many days to go through all the posts including posts which are linked within those posts!

Lal wrote:

Another approach is to get an idea about anicca, dukkha, anatta (Tilakkhana). You could start here: “Anicca – True Meaning.” The following section has audio files I recorded some time back: “Three Marks of Existence – English Discourses“

I have gone through some of these posts but not all. In any case I’ll complete them. Earlier I used to aspire for heavenly future rebirth but now the suffering associated with such heavenly rebirth(anariya being in heaven surely falls in lower realms afterwards) has become apparent to me. So my goal now is no more rebirth after this life.
Thank you sir!

[Author]

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