[Tobias G]

There is a contradiction between #2 and #3.

In #2 it is said: “Then there are dukha vēdanā that are again brought in via the five physical senses: injuries to the body, headaches, eating something bitter, smelling a bad odor, hearing to an ear-piercing sound..”

In #3 it is said: “Furthermore, all vipāka vēdanā coming through the other four physical senses are also neutral: adhukkhama asukha (without being painful or joyful, just neutral) vēdanā, which are commonly called upekkha vēdanā.”

An ear-piercing sound will not generate neutral vedana, it will cause dukha vedana even to an Arahant. Thus not all vipaka vedana trough the other four physical senses are neutral, right?

[Christian]

That’s not true :)

It’s a right explanation. I will use an example I used somewhere else:

an example when three people meet. One person has liked for one person, other people do not like that one but bystander do not have a feeling for that person whom the other two like and dislike. So the person (and objects) do not have any inherent quality that makes people likes or dislike, it's one own ignorance (lack of understanding of Anicca nature which is not impermanence) manufacture such feelings and thoughts to arise - otherwise, all people bypassing would dislike him

So suffering generally appears because of this mental fabrication not because of an object of perception or perception itself. As Sariputta said:

Ven. Kotthita: “How is it, friend Sariputta, is … the ear the fetter of sounds or are sounds the fetter of the ear?…”
Ven. Sariputta: “Friend Kotthita, the … ear is not the fetter of sounds nor are sounds the fetter of the ear, but rather the desire and lust that arise there in dependence on both: that is the fetter there…

so ear-piercing sound will generate neutral vedana in Arahant even is his body reacts in pain but pain will be not mentally fabricated as painful.

[Tobias G]

Christian, what you describe is the follow up thoughts which can be somanassa or domanassa vedana. That is mind made, agreed. I mean the inital vipaka vedana. The ear-piercing sound will cause unpleasant vedana even in an Arahant and his body will probably automatically react. How can this be neutral?

[Christian]

I will show you on more technical analysis.

When you see a person you do not like the first moment of perceiving “I do not like him” is applied as mental fabrication on the basis of neutral vedana of just seeing a person. If you do not recognize him you would not develop such “dislike” feeling.

So Eye -> Object of perception -> MENTAL FABRICATION -> Feeling is conconcted so you experience it and suffer.

When we attain Arahanthood there is Eye -> Object of perception -> NO MENTAL FABRICATION -> Seeing it as it is without any suffering even if it develops neurobiological suffering it’s just as it is without suffering.

I would not say everything is neutral but this is a true meaning of Anatta. I would say now based on my experience with it and results that real meaning of Anatta is “without own characteristic” so to speak or “without flavor”. To experience suffering on any level of aggregates we need mentally fabricate it but they do not have own qualities so lack of this qualities is Anatta. Everything is truly Anatta, but it can not be translated literally as neutral as it goes beyond neutral but neutral can be used in the explanation.

[Tobias G]

So you say this “unpleasant feeling” or initial bodily reaction is “neurobiological suffering”? But any suffering is connected to vedana. Also Lal describes dukha vedana as a vedana felt via the physical body (via five physical senses).

Could it be correct this way?: a “normal” sound coming to the ear is neutral vipaka. But a strong sound is not only sensed by the ear but also by the body (kaya rupa). Bodily sensations can be directly sukha and dukha vedana. This is what even the Arahant feels (pain) and what you call “neurobiological suffering”. Thus a very loud sound can be felt as dukha vedana, but not as domanassa vedana.

The same line of reasoning would be valid for smelling an acid. The smell is neutral vipaka but the acid would immediately cause dukha vedana via kaya rupa (body).

[Christian]

If you put the bag full of air it will pop because of conditions and qualities appearing in this process. The same body has physical limitations and the pain will be felt but suffering on the basis of this pain will be nonexistent for Arahant as you would not develop anything unwholesome on the basis of any experience so there will be no suffering.

If what you said would be true there will be not possible to attain Nibbana. The leftover suffering after attainment of Nibbana is only physical so feeling the pain and not create suffering on the basis of that pain are two different things.

For example, if somebody hit you, you do not like the pain can be gone but you can still think and suffer thru many days or even months. The is no doubt that the leftover suffering is there and will be there and can be minimized by lifestyle choices (not always) but I would say this pain is something else than a feeling of suffering which is eradicated at that point and not appearing.

[Lal]

The post being discussed is: “Feelings: Sukha, Dukha, Somanassa, and Domanassa”

One way to separate domanassa and somanassa vedana from sukha and dukha vedana is that the former two have associated “mental factors (cetasika)” generated.

So, they are also called “cetasika sukha or cetasika dukha”. Those do not arise in Arahants and arise due to one’s defilements (getting attached to it becoming joyful or being repelled by it and becoming irritated).

The ear-piercing sound is really a dukha vedana (due to vipaka) that is associated with kaya, not the ears (sota indriya).
– Here we need to think about how the “sota indriya” (which is not the same as the physical ear) works. Air compressions hit the ear drum inside “the physical ear”, and makes it vibrate. Those vibrations are sent to the brain and the brain converts them to a “sound signal” which it then transmits to the “sota pasada rupa” located close to the hadaya vatthu in the mental body (gandhabba); see, “Brain – Interface between Mind and Body“.

• So, the dukha vedana created by an “ear-piercing sound” is actually due to the high perturbation of the ear drum (part of the physical body), a physical sensation. If it is really strong, the ear drum may be damaged and one could feel pain just like due to a wound.
• Of course, one could also generate domanassa vedana due to being irritated by that.

An Arahant would feel the first (physical), but not the second (mental) due to that “ear-piercing sound”.

[Tobias G]

That means if kaya rupa are involved sukha or dukha vedana can directly arise. But if the sense input contains only cakkhu, sota, ghana, jivha rupa and dhamma then upekkha vedana will arise. Is that correct?

That is also said here: https://puredhamma.net/living-dhamma/what-is-vedana-feelings/does-bodily-pain-arise-only-due-to-kamma-vipaka/

[Tobias G]

What I don’t understand is, how sukha vedana can arise while eating tasty food or smelling a nice odor. This should be sensed by ghana rupa and jivha rupa. Is here kaya rupa involved?

[Lal]

“What I don’t understand is, how sukha vedana can arise while eating tasty food or smelling a nice odor.”

That is a good observation. Here is another thing to think about: kama guna that are based on one’s bhava:

Kāma Guna, Kāma, Kāma Rāga, Kāmaccanda

Obviously, an Arahant also tastes the sweetness of sugar. Does that count as a “sukha vedana”? May be this needs to be decided at how a “sukha vedana” is defined.

Is “sukha vedana” defined as “a bodily sensation”? If so, sweetness of sugar would not count as a sukha vedana.
– However, since “somanassa” is defined as a “mental construction”, sweetness of sugar would not count as a somanassa vedana either!
– May be it is a “mental construction” that happens AUTOMATICALLY based on bhava.
– For example, humans like the taste of sugar, but a pig does not, which likes the taste of feces. So, just being a human one feels sugar as likable or tasty.

[Tobias G]

Does this mean, when tasting the sweetness of sugar, this is sukha vedana and also kama guna?

[y not]

“– May be it is a “mental construction” that happens AUTOMATICALLY based on bhava.”

This makes sense to me. Taking the case of lemons in particular, you and I both experience the distinctive taste of lemon,but since childhood I love lemons, I eat them raw, pulp and all, while most people wince at just the thought of it. And if is is based on bhava (or, on second thoughts, on gati )then it will be no different for an Arahant. (i.e the distinction will persist if both you and I were Arahants)

Metta to all

[Tobias G]

Hi Lal,
in your post November 21, 2018 at 8:16 am you say:

Obviously, an Arahant also tastes the sweetness of sugar. Does that count as a “sukha vedana”? May be this needs to be decided at how a “sukha vedana” is defined.

Is “sukha vedana” defined as “a bodily sensation”? If so, sweetness of sugar would not count as a sukha vedana.

But in the post Does Bodily Pain Arise Only Due to Kamma Vipāka? #3 it is said:

This is why In Abhidhamma, all sense inputs via the other five sense inputs (other than physical body) are initially felt as upekkha (neutral) vēdanā. Only the bodily sense inputs could lead to dukkha vēdanā (getting injured, headaches, cancer, etc) or sukha vēdanā (good massage, lying on a comfortable bed, etc).

Here is nothing mentioned that involves the other 5 sense inputs, only kaya rupa are in play. Thus only with the body one can feel sukha and dukha vedana as kamma vipaka. But of course kama guna are felt by all including Arahants. Somehow there is a missing link…

[Tobias G]

There is one more issue in the post Feelings: Sukha, Dukha, Somanassa, and Domanassa. In #11 it is said:

“Now let us consider the consequences of sankhāra in this life, that we mentioned in #6 above. Suppose a teenager starts associating with bad friends and start drinking alcohol. Initially, he does not even like the taste of it, i.e., he may be generating a dukha vēdanā due to the taste of alcohol. But with the insistence of those friends he continues drinking.

Then he makes a habit (gati) of it, begins to perceive the taste as a sukha vēdanā, and starts making sankhāra about drinking. …”

How can the teeanager change his perception from dukha to sukha vedana without the mind inbetween? Actually he should only be able to change his domanassa vedana to somanassa vedana. Sukha or dukha vedana are part of bhava and not mind made or depending on gathi/asava.

[Lal]

@Tobias:
You are right. I have revised #11 on that post as follows:

“11.Now let us consider the consequences of sankhāra in this life, that we mentioned in #6 above. Suppose a teenager starts associating with bad friends and start drinking alcohol. Initially, he does not even like the taste of it, i.e., he may be generating a dōmanassa vēdanā due to the taste of alcohol. But with the insistence of those friends he continues drinking.”

“Then he makes a habit (gati) of it, begins to perceive the taste as a sōmanassa vēdanā, and starts making sankhāra about drinking. Even while in the middle of some other task, he starts thinking about the next party where he can drink, and what types of drinks there will be and so on.
Now “sankhāra paccayā viññāna” step in the paticca samuppāda leads to making a “new viññāna for drinking”. The more he thinks about such parties and generate those sōmanassa vēdanā, the more viññāna, nāma rupa, etc that he makes for such “drinking events”.
And the stronger that “viññāna for drinking” gets, the more he will be thinking about it (making more sankhāra). Then the habit is strengthened; see, “How Habits are Formed and Broken – A Scientific View”.

I may have made similar mistakes in other posts. Thanks for finding them for me.

You said: “Obviously, an Arahant also tastes the sweetness of sugar. Does that count as a “sukha vedana”? May be this needs to be decided at how a “sukha vedana” is defined.

Is “sukha vedana” defined as “a bodily sensation”? If so, sweetness of sugar would not count as a sukha vedana.”

I am on travel, and don’t have access to my resources. But the more I think, I believe that “sukha/dukha vedana” are felt just by the body (kaya).

As discussed in the Kama Guna post, “sweetness of sugar” is a characteristic of the human bhava. Until an Arahant’s physical human body dies, he/she will feel that somanassa vedana.

It comes via “jivhanca paticca rasanca uppaddati jivha vinnanam“, “tinnan sangati phasso“, “phassa paccaya vedana“.

The somanassa vedana is indeed produced by “samphassa with gati”. The gati in this case are not just with the Arahant, but anyone in human bhava. “Sweetness in sugar” is a “human gati”; see the post on Kama Guna. For the Arahant, that gathi will also go away at Parinibbana; it is there only as long as that last human body is alive.

However, the next step: “vedana paccaya tanha” does not arise in the Arahant. That is the difference.

See: “Difference between Phassa and Samphassa”

We can discuss more if needed. This is an important point.

[firewns]

Lal,

You mentioned: The somanassa vedana is indeed produced by “samphassa with gati”. The gati in this case are not just with the Arahant, but anyone in human bhava. “Sweetness in sugar” is a “human gati”; see the post on Kama Guna. For the Arahant, that gathi will also go away at Parinibbana; it is there only as long as that last human body is alive.

Does this mean that the Buddha also had gati since He was in the human bhava in his last life? But as I seem to recall, you stated in another post that the Buddha did not have any defiled habits remaining, unlike an Arahant. Are gati also defiled habits?

Also, as I understand it, somanassa vedana are mind-made feelings or mentally fabricated feelings. Am I wrong? Why would an Arahant mentally fabricate feelings?

Thank you very much in advance for your answers to my questions.

[Lal]

Yes. Even the Buddha could taste “sweetness in sugar”, etc. Those “kama guna” are indeed associated with each bhava; see, “Kāma Guna, Kāma, Kāma Rāga, Kāmaccanda“.

A “bad gati” would be to have CRAVING for them. When one attains Nibbana, one gets rid of lobha, dosa, moha. That is all one gets rid of.

P.S. 8/10/23: 

The “sweetness in sugar,” etc., comes from “kāma saññā” and NOT from “kāma guna.” I will explain that in upcoming posts. Thanks for pointing this out, LDF!

[LayDhammaFollower]

Having kama guna cannot be (and NEED NOT BE) avoided as long as one in an existence as a human, animal, etc.

@Lal, I think you might want to correct above reply #20422.

[Tobias G]

In the Abhidhamma manual from Dr. Mehm Tin Mon I found on p.29/30:
7 akusala vipaka citta
8 ahetuka kusala vipaka citta

The one extra citta in the kusala vipaka cittas could be the missing link to kama guna. It is the somanassa-sahagatam santirana cittam or investigating consciousness accompanied by joy. Thus when eating tasty food we will have
– tongue-consciousness accompanied by upekkha,
— followed by receptive consciousness accompanied by upekkha,
— followed by investigating consciousness accompanied by upekkha,
—- followed by investigating consciousness accompanied by joy.

All are vipaka citta but the end result is joy (somanassa).

[Lal]

I doubt whether kama guna have anything to do with citta types.

Kama guna are associated with bhava. For example, humans have a distaste for feces, but pigs enjoy it. Cows like grass but lions would not, etc.

[Lal]

The “sweetness in sugar,” etc., comes from “kāma saññā” and NOT from “kāma guna.” I will explain that in upcoming posts. Thanks for pointing this out, LDF!

• LDF’s comment is embedded above, #45806.
• I just revised my comment #20422.

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