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This discussion topic is on the second desana on icca, nicca, anicca:
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Lal:
Thanks for your reply on the Jhana and Magga Pala topic. I am
posting here in line with your request.I have been looking forward to discourse #2, checking for it often, but I will postpone listening to it until the evening when I am relaxed.
The reason I have gone to such lenghts on this topic of dana is because I have been developing it for many years, having since years now reached, to my mind, of course, a level beyond which I do not see how I can go. And having come across, first, that sutta at Accesstoinsight some five or six years ago, and only last year across Puredhamma, I felt the need to ‘reconcile’ the two. It would be perhaps too much to say that I am expecting a sort of ‘assessment’ of the stage I am at by the ‘touchstone’ of Dhamma, for I feel this is the way I should go – scriptures or no scriptures,Buddha or no Buddha, Puredhamma or no Puredhamma. You will no doubt intuit the rest.
Ever grateful for all your efforts,
y not
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Y not said: “..What I meant was unselfishness in all its aspects..”.
One’s intention is ALWAYS contaminated to some level unless Tilakkhana are FULLY comprehended, which happens only at the Arahant stage.
And that level of ignorance is embedded in sanna at ALL times. One may think that one is giving without any expectations of getting something in return, but that is not correct. However, that is how one makes progress. That act of giving has merits; it will make it easier for one to comprehend Tilakkhana. That is a part of completing the mundane eightfold path.
You may be able to get a better idea when you listen to the second discourse. If not, I can incorporate more on this issue at the next discourse. This is an important but a deeper point.
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Dear Lal,
Very nice desana and helps a novice to understand what he/she should or should not.
May you attain Arahat phala in this life for the dhamma you are doing.
Seeing Anicca Sanna is the real progression on the path of liberation since nothing can come to one’s rescue in long run with nicca sanna.
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In this desana Lal said that only the completed kamma (kamma pata) can cause suffering in future lifes. In the example of a man planning to kill many people with a bomb, it was said that if the man didn’t bring his plan to a fruition, i.e., no one got hurt, that wouldn’t have been considered as kamma pata.
But then it was also said that vaci sankhara (including talking to oneself) can be considered as kamma pata and thus such apunnabi vaci sankhara should be avoided.
So I got a little bit confused. Can an act of planning an immoral deed bring future births in the apayas if the actual act was not realized? -
Nikita said: “But then it was also said that vaci sankhara (including talking to oneself) can be considered as kamma pata..”
Yes. You are right. If I said that, that is not really correct.
“Talking to oneself” is a vaci sankhara, and it is an apunnabi sankhara.
However, it becomes a “kamma pata” only if it is really carried out: For example, if actually killing or hurting someone or actually spreading a falsehood to hurt someone, etc.“Talking to oneself” is bad because it defiles one’s mindset, even if one does not carry it out. For example, “day dreaming about sex” is bad even though it does not hurt someone else, because it becomes a pancanivarana, and blocks one’s mind from getting to samadhi.
– Then it would also become easier to actually carry out a kamma pata eventually. -
The parts about kamma pata, pavutti kamma bhava, and uppatthi kamma bhava in this desana was very interesting.
Lal, in the future if you have the free time, can you consider writing a bit more in debth about these concepts(kamma pata, pavutti kamma bhava, and uppatthi kamma bhava).
Questions:
1) Does pavutti kamma bhava mean one will get the vipaka only within this current bhava we are in right now? Or does it also involve vipaka in future bhava that will come after this current bhava?2) Does uppatthi kamma bhava mean a vipaka that is an entirely brand new bhava/existence?
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upekkha100’s questions:
“1) Does pavutti kamma bhava mean one will get the vipaka only within this current bhava we are in right now? Or does it also involve vipaka in future bhava that will come after this current bhava?”They could occur in this bhava or future bhava.
“2) Does uppatthi kamma bhava mean a vipaka that is an entirely brand new bhava/existence?”
Yes. That is a new bhava, not a jati within a bhava. For example, when one is in the human bhava, one may be born (jati) many times with a physical human body, and in between those, one lives with just the mental body (gandhabba).
Cuti-patisandhi (or grasping a new bhava) happens only when the kammic energy for the current bhava is totally exhausted. When that happens the above human may grasp a new bhava of a deva, brahma, animal, etc.
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Lal, since you are discussing cuti-patisandhi in your last reply,
1) Is it possible for a being to have its kammic energy for the current bhava totally exhausted when it is still a gandhabba waiting for a solid body to be born in?
2) Is it also possible for a human to have its kammic energy for the current bhava totally exhausted when it is still very young and healthy, such as when it is still a child? In that case, does the being die for no apparent reason in its childhood?
Thank you very much in advance for your answers.
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firewns:
Kammic energy is defined at the beginning of a bhava. So, when it runs out one will leave the existing bhava regardless of which form it is in.
So, if it runs out while in the gandhabba state, the gandhabba will cease to exist and the new life-form will start.
– For example, if the new bhava is a deva bhava, then a deva will appear in the deva loka instantaneously.If the kammic energy runs out for a human baby, the baby will die and the new life-form will start.
– For example, if the new bhava is an animal bhava, an animal gandhabba will come out of the dead body of that baby.
– By the way, this why some healthy young people just drop and die. They could have been very healthy. But of course there will be a medical reason, for example, “an unexpected” heart attack could have been the cause. -
Hello!
Is it correct to say that Anicca also refers to our inability to stay satisfied with anything in this world for a long time?
Something like: There is nothing in this world that can keep you satisfied for a long time.I liked this example:
“For example, an item made of gold or a diamond can last millions of years. But neither can be kept to “our satisfaction” since we will have to give them up when we die.”Something came to my mind like: Even if I buy a diamond that I want so much, I’ll get satisfied for a shor period of time, probably after some time keeping it with me I’ll get bored with it, and than start to crave for a bigger one, or even use it to buy something that I will start craving after getting bored of it trying to be satisfied and get stuck at a infinity loop even at this lifetime… I crave, I keep satisfied for getting it, I get bored of it, I crave for something else, I keep satisfied for gerring it, I get bored of it, I crave for someth…
The Bhuddha lived with all the material things someone could crave before leaving the palace…
Even with everything he had, the gratest material things that a person could have and crave at that era, he felt hollow, empty, depressed and left that life craving for something that could fill that emptiness…
That makes me thing that one possible conclusion of his could be: There is nothing in this world that could keep you satisfied for long (anicca), so you will always get frustrated, unsatisfied (Dukkha), and this frustration will get you depressed, hollow, empty, helpless (anatta)…The solution to this problem, this humam nature (desire, craving and inability to stay satisfied) that condemn us to eternal frustration was found by him through introspection… Only through profound internal changes we can stay satisfied for long time, not looking or craving at external things, he had everything and felt hollow, he knew this doesn’t work, so he found the solution through ceasing the disire and creaving, getting satisfied the whole time independent of external things…
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Welcome to the forum, Samuel!
“Is it correct to say that Anicca also refers to our inability to stay satisfied with anything in this world for a long time?”
Yes. Anicca has many meanings and that is one; see, “The Incessant Distress (“Pilana”) – Key to Dukkha Sacca” and “Anicca – True Meaning”.
Rest of your comment is correct too!
– Also think about other aspects, like anicca nature leading to one (eventually) getting bad rebirths, and becoming totally helpless (one meaning of anatta): “Anattā – A Systematic Analysis“. -
You say anicca = Na+icca… But you never say how nicca word is prepared. what does ‘n’ sounds and means before icca in the nicca?
I liked your interpretation of iccha =strong icca. but to keep sync with other words I had found other more appropriate word …
icca = expectation.. where as iccha =tanha+icca.
when I push switch , it is expected that the fan will start. thats icca. and the intention to start fan is iccha.
nicca = as expected.
anicca = as not expected.
paticca =pati+icca = cause/root of expectation..
I am sorry if this does not make sense to you. but for now it makes sense to me untill I find more information. Thankyou.
One more thing, in hindi I found a better word which rhyms with nicca.i.e “नीश्चीत”/nischit.. that means expected.
I also found the usage of hindi word नीत्य। is mostly used to denote routine activities. as in नीत्यक्रम। to denote brushing teeth, taking bath etc.
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Pali words cannot be translated to one’s liking.
Anicca can be understood in two ways:
- Anicca = na + icca, “cannot be maintained” according to one’s icca. P.S. Similarly, the combination of “na āgāmai” (not coming back to the kama loka) is pronounced, “Anāgāmi.”
- Nicca = “can be maintained” according to one’s icca; anicca is the opposite of nicca.
Pali words are not necessarily meant to rhyme with Hindi or Sanskrit.
- Icca is pronounced “ichcha” and nicca “nichcha.” P.S. Anicca = na + icca, is pronounced “anichcha”; Anicca = a + nicca, is also pronounced “anichcha”
- Those conventions for writing were adopted by European scholars to shorten the Pali words written with the Latin (English) alphabet.
- See “Tipiṭaka English” Convention Adopted by Early European Scholars – Part 1” and Part 2.
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