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No. They are different.
- The “nāmarūpa paccayā salāyatana” is one of the steps in Paṭicca Samuppāda.
- The verse, “jāti sañjāti okkanti abhinibbatti khandhānaṃ pātubhāvo āyatanānaṃ paṭilābho, ayaṃ vuccatāvuso: ‘jāti’” describes the birth of a human or animal with a physical body. See #4 of “Jāti – Different Types of Births.”
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I believe I might have made an error in my understanding.
Q1. In the “namarupa paccaya salayatana” step, does not it refer to the switch of indriya into ayatana?
Q2. Additionally, in the context of “idappaccayata paticca samuppada,” does “jati” refer to the way one is born (jati) into a certain level of mind(bhava)? If that is the case, doesn’t it mean using indriya as ayatana?
Idappaccayatā Paṭicca Samuppāda – Bhava and Jāti Within a Lifetime
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“Part of it will fuel an “angry bhava” in this life. Both of them have created “angry bhava” and are now “born in an “angry state.” Thus, “bhava paccayā jāti” has already taken place. That is jāti in IPS.”Jāti – Different Types of Births
#6
(vi) The sensory faculties start working as āyatana after the baby is born. This is the last āyatanānaṃ paṭilābho stage.
Q3. If Q1 and Q2 have no error, how are namarupa paccaya salayatana and IPS jati two different?
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Q1. It does.
Q2. Idappaccayata Paticca Samuppada is the SAME as Paticca Samuppada.
- Uppatti Paticca Samuppada is a special case of Idappaccayata Paticca Samuppada.
#13. “angry bhava” arises in this life, with Idappaccayata Paticca Samuppada.
- “uppatti bhava” arises in Uppatti Paticca Samuppada. But that is still a unique application of the Idappaccayata Paticca Samuppada at the cuti-patisandhi moment.
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Dosakkhayo has sent me the following figure to explain his question:
I understand the question now. It is a good question. I will explain it later today.
- If someone else can explain it, please do so. This is a good opportunity to test one’s understanding.
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I think they are different processes because:
(1) We know that “nāmarūpa paccayā salāyatana” is a step in Paṭicca Samuppāda, and like others, each step depends on what anusaya/āsava come up, assuming we are talking about akusala-mula paṭicca samuppāda.
(2) Lal said: The verse, “jāti sañjāti okkanti abhinibbatti khandhānaṃ pātubhāvo āyatanānaṃ paṭilābho, ayaṃ vuccatāvuso: ‘jāti’” describes the birth of a human or animal with a physical body.
So, the above just describes the birth of a human baby, and a baby’s brain is not fully developed, so āsava/anusaya do not come up until later.
I remember that some time ago, we had a discussion as to whether a baby had “distorted saññā“, and we said that it did not because its brain was not yet developed.
Best,
Lang -
Although the two share some common ground, I believe they emphasize different points. In “namarupa paccaya salayatana,” the emphasis is on the contamination of the mind. This leads to samphassa, samphassa ja vedana, tanha, and upadana. On the other hand, “bhava paccaya jati” emphasizes the consequences that follow bhava. This leads to jati paccaya jara maranam soka parideva dukkha domanassam upayasa.
For example, in the case of theft, the former describes the process by which the mind is contaminated through theft, while the latter describes the suffering that theft leads to.
Therefore, I think these two discuss the same thing in different ways.
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What Lang pointed out is correct. Let me explain a bit more.
1. “nāmarūpa paccayā salāyatana” is a step in Paṭicca Samuppāda. That holds whenever “nāmarūpa” arises via the sequence: ““avijjā paccayā saṅkhāra; saṅkhāra paccayā viññāna; viññāna paccayā nāmarūpa.”
2. The verse, “Katamā cāvuso, jāti? Yā tesaṃ tesaṃ sattānaṃ tamhi tamhi sattanikāye jāti sañjāti okkanti abhinibbatti khandhānaṃ pātubhāvo āyatanānaṃ paṭilābho, ayaṃ vuccatāvuso: ‘jāti’.” is a general term to describe how a partcular “jāti” arises.
- As I mentioned in my first comment above, this verse is analyzed in “Jāti – Different Types of Births” starting at #4. Let me summarize by quoting from that post.
“5. For opapatika (instantaneous) births in the Deva and Brahma realms, jāti is the ONLY stage involved. A Brahma or a Deva is born instantaneously, complete with “all parts of the body.”
- It needs a bit of correction. Not only jāti but also sañjāti is involved in creating a Deva or a Brahma in an opapatika birth.
- The same two steps are also involved in the birth of a human (or animal) gandhabba at the cuti-patisandhi moment. That is an opapatika birth, too.
- Thus, all life forms are generated in the first two steps (via opapatika births).
The rest of the steps, “okkanti abhinibbatti khandhānaṃ pātubhāvo āyatanānaṃ paṭilābho” are involved in the birth of a human (or animal) with a physical body. Let us consider the process needed for a human to be born with a physical body. That is another type of jāti.
- The gandhabba must enter a matching womb (okkanti). That can take days, months, or years after the gandhabba was born at the cuti-patisandhi moment.
- The rest of the steps are in #6 of that post. I will quote them below.
(iii) When pulled into a womb, the gandhabba merges with a zygote, which is the okkanti state.
(iv) Then, that embryo grows in the womb in the abhinibbatti stage.
(v) When all body parts are formed, that is the khandhānaṃ pātubhāvo stage, and a baby then comes out of the womb. That last stage is what we commonly call a “birth.”
(vi) The sensory faculties start working as āyatana after the baby is born. This is the last āyatanānaṃ paṭilābho stage.
Now, the second point that Lang made is that the baby’s sensory faculties (indriya) cannot become āyatana until its brain is fully developed.
- I discussed this point in detail in the following (more recent) post, “Distorted Saññā Arises in Every Adult but Not in a Newborn“
- I may need to make a few more revisions to the post “Jāti – Different Types of Births” to provide more clarity by referring to the newer post “Distorted Saññā Arises in Every Adult but Not in a Newborn.“
- Let me know if there are more questions before I do that.
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I now see that I was mistaken. Thank you for your clarification. However, one point still concerns me. There is a mainstream theory in modern psychology called attachment theory. This theory posits that the attachment experiences with parents during infancy influence one’s attachment style in adulthood. Please refer to the link below for more details, particularly from the section “stages of attachment.” This theory seems somewhat at odds with the idea that indriyas cannot be used as ayatanas until they are fully matured. Could you please provide an explanation for this?
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Buddha Dhamma is based on a very different paradigm and cannot be assessed using “mundane theories.”
- That MUST be kept in mind all the time.
- If one tries to explain concepts in Buddha Dhamma using scientific or philosophical theories, one will NEVER be able to comprehend Buddha Dhamma.
- However, that does not mean one cannot use “common sense.”
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Lal said: Buddha Dhamma is based on a very different paradigm and cannot be assessed using “mundane theories.”
That is indeed a correct statement. However, I did not intend to use another theory. I needed to ascertain the incompatibility between the Buddha Dhamma and Attachment Theory. I have received a satisfactory answer. Thank you for the answer.
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Of course. There have been many incompatibilities (and some remain) between Buddha Dhamma and science.
- However, Buddha Dhamma has been proven correct with time: “Dhamma and Science – Introduction.“
- As science makes progress, more incompatibilities will be removed.
- One critical remaining incompatibility is scientists’ wrong view that thoughts arise in the brain. But that is gradually changing. See, for example, “Dr. Brian Weiss on the Patient Who Made Him Believe in Past Lives” and “NDE, Jesus and Hell” (especially the YouTube video there.)
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I said:
Although the two share some common ground, I believe they emphasize different points. In “namarupa paccaya salayatana,” the emphasis is on the contamination of the mind. This leads to samphassa, samphassa ja vedana, tanha, and upadana. On the other hand, “bhava paccaya jati” emphasizes the sequences that follow bhava. This leads to jati paccaya jara maranam soka parideva dukkha domanassam upayasa.
For example, in the case of theft, the former describes the process by which the mind is contaminated through theft, while the latter describes the suffering that theft leads to.
Therefore, I think these two discuss the same thing in different ways.
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I have been pondering over the reasons why I thought this way.#10At the end of existence (bhava), a given lifestream jumps from one kind of existence to another. The easiest to visualize is in the case of a Brahma to a Deva transition. The “nāma” part changes from a Brahma to a Deva, and the “rupa” part changes from 2 pasada rupa for the Brahma to 5 for the Deva.– That transition happens in the latter part of the last citta vīthi of the life of Brahma. At that cuti-patisandhi moment, the “Brahma nāmarupa” dies, and a “Deva nāmarupa” is created by kammic energy.—I thought this description overlapped with the “bhava paccaya jati” step. If “vinnana paccaya namarupa” and “bhava paccaya jati” are separate and independent stages, how are they different? -
Dosakkhayo asked: “If “vinnana paccaya namarupa” and “bhava paccaya jati” are separate and independent stages, how are they different?”
Two terms that are the hardest to understand in Paticca Samuppada are “namarupa formation” and the concept of “bhava.”
1. “Bhava” is the kammic energy that can sustain an existence. “Bhava” is two types: (i) During a lifetime, one can get into a”temporary existence” (temporary bhava) where more kammic energy corresponding to that type of existence is accumulated. (ii) That accumulated “bhava energy” can lead to a new existence at the cuti-patisandhi moment via “bhava paccaya jati.”
2. The primary mechanism of “bhava energy” formation is “namarupa formation.” This is where “nama” and “rupa” are combined by the mind, and kammic energy is produced in javana cittas. The critical steps are “avijja paccaya sankhara” through “vinnana paccaya namarupa.”
- However, one does not automatically start “avijja paccaya sankhara.” It begins with a sensory input (arammana) coming to the mind and the mind getting attached to it, for example, “cakkhunca paticca rupeca uppjjati cakkhu vinnanam.” The attachment starts with the mind generating “samphassa-ja-vedana” via “distorted sanna.”
- That always happens within a lifetime via Idappaccayata PS. See “Paṭicca Samuppāda During a Lifetime.”
- However, once attached to an arammana and getting to the “tanha paccaya upadana” step, the mind starts accumulating new kamma by starting at the “avijja paccaya sankhara” step. See “Taṇhā Paccayā Upādāna – Critical Step in Paṭicca Samuppāda” for details. I mentioned this post in another recent thread, but you don’t seem to have read it. See my comment on July 10, 2024 at 8:27 am in “Compilation of my thoughts.”
3. Accumulated kammic energy can lead to a new existence at the cuti-patisandhi moment via “bhava paccaya jati” as mentioned in #1 above. Sometimes the “Akusala-Mūla Uppatti Paṭicca Samuppāda” process is used to explain it.
- However, grasping a new existence at the cuti-patisandhi moment also happens in an Idappaccayata PS process. That also begins with a sensory input (arammana) coming to the mind and the mind getting attached to it, for example, “cakkhunca paticca rupeca uppjjati cakkhu vinnanam.”
- However, in this case, once reaching the “tanha paccaya upadana” step, the mind moves to the “bhava paccaya jati” step and grasps that new existence. In this case, there is no time to accumulate “more new kamma,” as in #2 above. Here, grasping a new existence also involves generating “samphassa-ja-vedana” via “distorted sanna.”
- Whether it is new kamma generation or grasping a new existence, a mind MUST attach to an arammana, and that is ALWAYS triggered by “distorted sanna.”
Paticca Samuppada is complex. It is not linear most of the time. However, it is stated linearly to explain the main concepts.
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I apologize for any inconvenience, but although I read the post, I wasn’t able to fully understand it. I believe there might have been something I missed at the time.
The non-linear progression is particularly confusing for me. Could you kindly explain step-by-step when it progresses linearly and when it progresses non-linearly? In the meantime, I will re-read the entire Paticca Samuppada section myself.
I am asking not to trouble Lal, but simply because I sincerely want to understand what I couldn’t grasp. Please have mercy on me and kindly explain it in an easy-to-understand manner.
with metta.
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It is impossible to do that in a single comment or even a long post. I would have done it if that was possible! One needs to keep reading and understanding concepts. I myself am learning, too. Buddha Dhamma is like the deep ocean; one can go deeper with more understanding. Once in a while, you come across a “breakthrough,” like the concept of “distorted sanna,” which opens up a new, life-changing view. That is what happened to me in 2023.
- Don’t try to understand everything in one session. You seem to stress yourself out by doing “marathon sessions.” That is unhealthy, meaning it could be stressful and may affect the physical body, too.
- Please take the time to re-read what I wrote above and the links. I don’t think you even read what I wrote above carefully (let alone the links) before responding!
- Try to understand the concepts, and avoid hanging onto every word I write. Sometimes, it is difficult to express ideas in words, and what I write in a particular sentence could be misinterpreted. (Of course, if I write something with apparent errors or contradictions, it is OK to point that out.) If you read a post in its entirety (and the links), you should be able to get the general idea.
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I truly appreciate your concern.
What I wanted to ask in 50835 was why in Uppatti Paticca Samuppada, the pasada rupa and hadaya vatthu formed at the bhava paccaya jati step are also being explained at the vinnana paccaya namarupa step.
Aren’t these explaining the same event from a different perspective?
In all honesty, I don’t quite understand what I might be missing in 50836.
It’s not that I don’t understand “bhava paccaya jati”; rather, I would like to understand how it is distinguished from “vinnana paccaya namarupa”.
From what I have learned in 50836, bhava in “bhava paccaya jati” is formed through the “vinnana paccaya namarupa” stage.
Is this the difference between the two?
Then, does the formation of pasada rupa and hadaya vatthu occur only in “bhava paccaya jati” (and not “vinnana paccaya namarupa”)?
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Dosakkhayo wrote:
“From what I have learned in 50836, bhava in “bhava paccaya jati” is formed through the “vinnana paccaya namarupa” stage.
Is this the difference between the two?”
- I tried to explain that in my comment above. That is all I can do right now. If you take the time to read it carefully (including the links), you may be able to understand.
- As I wrote there, these concepts may not be easy to understand.
Think about the following. How long does it take a person to get a Ph.D. in nuclear physics or any area of science?
- A Ph.D. will take at least 25 to 30 years (starting in elementary school and proceeding through many stages), but that is in one specific field.
- Buddha Dhamma is much deeper than any area in science or modern science taken as a whole. Modern science only deals with matter. Buddha Dhamma, on the other hand, explains how matter is created by the mind! That is much harder.
However, fortunately, learning Buddha Dhamma is an entirely different process. Even a person without much formal education may be able to make progress. The issue is that it is easier for some people than others because they have done more work in previous lives (the concept of paramita.) Since we do not know how much of the paramita we have completed, we can only make the effort.
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What caught my attention was Uppatti Paticca Sammupada is a specific version of Idappaccayata Paticca Samuppada.
Then I thought that Uppatti Paticca Samuppada starts from salayatana paccaya phassa too.
So I referred to this diagram to contemplate Uppatti Paticca Samuppada.
Purana and Nava Kamma – 1 (new).jpg
From the “namarupa paccaya salayatana” stage, up to the “tanha paccaya upadana” stage, kamma nimitta or gati nimitta comes in as sensory input.
Next, one clings to nimitta through tanha paccaya upadana.
avijja paccaya sankhara leads to the arising of javana citta.
sankhara paccaya vinnana initiates the operation of kamma vinnana.
vinnana paccaya namarupa begins the generation of uppatti bhava energy. (dhammā rupa)
Finally, in the bhava paccaya jati stage, the dhammā rupa formed in the vinnana paccaya namarupa stage now condense up to the suddhatthaka stage and form the kammaja kaya, namely the birth of manomaya kaya.
Subsequently, bhava paccaya jati applies again, leading manomaya kayas to acquire karaja kaya.
If there are any inaccuracies in my understanding, please let me know. Thank you.
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Yes, I see nothing wrong with what you wrote. Now, try to understand the concepts by thinking about real-time situations. You may have understood already.
- It is the Idappaccayātā Paṭicca Samuppāda that runs moment-to-moment. It describes how our minds respond to a sensory input (arammana). It describes temporary “bhava” and “jati“ within a lifetime: “Idappaccayātā Paṭicca Samuppāda – Bhava and Jāti Within a Lifetime.” That is the first post in the section I recommended: “Paṭicca Samuppāda During a Lifetime.”
- The “Uppatti Paticca Samuppada” is a summary of how what happens over many lives leads to grasping a “bhava” and corresponding “jati” (at the cuti-patisandhi moment) according to all “kammic energies” (bhava energies) accumulated via innumerable Idappaccayātā Paṭicca Samuppāda cycles over many past lives.
A mind becomes active only with an arammana. Most of the suttas explain the workings of the mind upon receiving an arammana. Those interested should search for “arammana” using the “Search” box on the top right and read some of them.
- Mind is all about responding to arammana.
- When we sleep or while unconscious, the mind is not active.
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I will copy and paste what I wrote in one of the comments above. Those interested should read it carefully, including the links.
1. “Bhava” is the kammic energy that can sustain an existence. “Bhava” is two types: (i) During a lifetime, one can get into a”temporary existence” (temporary bhava) where more kammic energy corresponding to that type of existence is accumulated. (ii) That accumulated “bhava energy” can lead to a new existence at the cuti-patisandhi moment via “bhava paccaya jati.”
2. The primary mechanism of “bhava energy” formation is “namarupa formation.” This is where “nama” and “rupa” are combined by the mind, and kammic energy is produced in javana cittas. The critical steps are “avijja paccaya sankhara” through “vinnana paccaya namarupa.”
- However, one does not automatically start “avijja paccaya sankhara.” It begins with a sensory input (arammana) coming to the mind and the mind getting attached to it, for example, “cakkhunca paticca rupeca uppjjati cakkhu vinnanam.” The attachment starts with the mind generating “samphassa-ja-vedana” via “distorted sanna.”
- That always happens within a lifetime via Idappaccayata PS. See “Paṭicca Samuppāda During a Lifetime.”
- However, once attached to an arammana and getting to the “tanha paccaya upadana” step, the mind starts accumulating new kamma, beginning at the “avijja paccaya sankhara” step. See “Taṇhā Paccayā Upādāna – Critical Step in Paṭicca Samuppāda” for details. I mentioned this post in another recent thread, but you don’t seem to have read it. See my comment on July 10, 2024 at 8:27 am in “Compilation of my thoughts.”
3. Accumulated kammic energy can lead to a new existence at the cuti-patisandhi moment via “bhava paccaya jati,” as mentioned in #1 above. Sometimes, the “Akusala-Mūla Uppatti Paṭicca Samuppāda” process is used to explain it.
- However, grasping a new existence at the cuti-patisandhi moment also happens in an Idappaccayata PS process. That also begins with a sensory input (arammana) coming to the mind and the mind getting attached to it, for example, “cakkhunca paticca rupeca uppjjati cakkhu vinnanam.”
- However, in this case, once reaching the “tanha paccaya upadana” step, the mind moves to the “bhava paccaya jati” step and grasps that new existence. In this case, there is no time to accumulate “more new kamma,” as in #2 above. Here, grasping a new existence also involves generating “samphassa-ja-vedana” via “distorted sanna.”
- Whether it is new kamma generation or grasping a new existence, a mind MUST attach to an arammana, and that is ALWAYS triggered by “distorted sanna.”
Paticca Samuppada is complex. It is not linear most of the time. However, it is stated linearly to explain the main concepts.
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Viññāna and Sankhāra – Connection to Paṭicca Samuppāda
Idappaccayatā Paṭicca Samuppāda – Bhava and Jāti Within a Lifetime
Bhava and Jāti Within a Lifetime – Example
These three posts all provide detailed explanations of idappaccayata paticca samuppada. I think it would be a good idea to group them together into a subsection.
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Good suggestion. Thank you!
I added it to a new “Idappaccayatā Paṭicca Samuppāda – Introductory Posts” subsection in:
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I have summarized idappaccayata paticca samuppada.
Please let me know if there are any mistakes or if there is anything to add. Thank you.
avijja paccaya sankhara: One acts based on ignorance of the bad consequences.
sankhara paccaya vinnana: One develops corrupted expectations about the future.
vinnana paccaya namarupa: One imagines mental images.
namarupa paccaya salayatana: One uses the sensory faculties to bring the imagined images to life.
salayatana paccaya phassa: One experiences corrupted sensory contact.
phassa paccaya vedana: One experiences a corrupted sensory feeling.
vedana paccaya tanha: One automatically clings to the corrupted sensory experience.
tanha paccaya upadana: One attaches to it with free will.
upadana paccaya bhava: One forms habits.
bhava paccaya jati: One is born into that particular bhava.
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Good summary!
We could improve on that as follows (by providing a bit more information):
avijja paccaya sankhara: One acts based on ignorance of the bad consequences of such actions (if they involve raga, dosa, moha/avijja).
sankhara paccaya vinnana: One develops corrupted expectations about the future. This includes even “moral deeds” done without understanding the anicca nature. (However, moral deeds must be done regardless since that will provide the background to understand the “anicca nature.”)
vinnana paccaya namarupa: One forms mental images of the expected outcome. This is a crucial step that cannot be summarized in a few sentences. This is where “mental energy” starts creating “subtle rupa” or “dhammā” (kamma bija) that can bring vipaka, including rebirth. See, “What are Rūpa? – Dhammā are Rūpa too!“
namarupa paccaya salayatana: One uses the sensory faculties to bring the imagined expectations to life.
salayatana paccaya phassa: While trying to bring the imagined expectations to life, one engages in corrupted sensory contact, i.e., with raga, dosa, moha/avijja.
phassa paccaya vedana: One experiences a “mind-made” sensory feeling (samphassa-ja-vedana). See, for example, “Vēdanā and Samphassa-Jā-Vēdanā – More Than Just Feelings.”
vedana paccaya tanha: One automatically clings to the corrupted sensory experience. (This may happen in the “purana kamma” stage. If it happens, the mind proceeds to the next step of upadana.)
tanha paccaya upadana: One attaches to it with free will and starts accumulating “strong kammic energies” by engaging in vaci and kaya kamma in the “nava kamma” stage. See “Purāna and Nava Kamma – Sequence of Kamma Generation.”
upadana paccaya bhava: One forms a “state of existence.” This leads to a temporary “state of mind during life.” It also accumulates kammic energies to lead to a “new existence (bhava)” at a cuti-patisandhi moment. See “Upādāna Paccayā Bhava – Two Types of Bhava.”
bhava paccaya jati: One is born into that particular bhava. Again, that happens during a life (innumerable times) and also when a human or animal gandhabba is born with a physical body.
- I know that you understand most of the above. It is to provide further clarification for the benefit of all.
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Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu!
I came up with a good analogy for bhava and jati and wanted to share it.
Let’s imagine there’s a building.
Each floor of the building can be thought of as bhava.
Jati is like taking the elevator and getting off at a particular floor.
Upadana is pressing the button to go to a particular floor.
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