January 10, 2021 at 10:39 pm #33013Raja_mwParticipant
Homage to Triple Gem
how can we understand, contemplate or “installing” this way of thinking (Samma Ditthi)?
“pleasant feeling, bhikkhus, should be seen as suffering, painful feeling should be seen as a dart, neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling should be seen as impermanent. When a bhikkhu has seen these three feelings thus, he is said to be a noble one who sees rightly…..”
how can we see pleasant feeling as suffering?
what the meaning of painful feeling should be seen as a dart?
it seem like Anicca Sanna is correctly use if we contemplate it only for “neutral” Vedana as object?
on the other occasion, i read another Sutta about Vendana where pleasant feeling tend to be attached by lobha/raga, unpleasant feeling tend to be attached by dosa and neutral feeling tend to attached by moha. it is logical (for anariya person) to crave or attach to pleasant feelings, to hate unpleasant feelings. but, i dont really understand about how neutral feeling attached by moha work? what does moha mean in this context?
Kindly Enlighten us,
May all beings be Happy.
January 11, 2021 at 8:28 am #33014
This is a very good question. It points out an important issue that I have talked about. It is a VERY BAD idea to translate a given sutta word-by-word, without providing the context.
This sutta refers ONLY to vipaka vedana: “Sukhā vedanā, dukkhā vedanā, adukkhamasukhā vedanā“. These are felt by the physical body.
– These types of vedana arise as kamma vipaka. Sukha vedana are due to good past kamma. Dukha vedana due to bad kamma. Adukkhamasukhā (adukkha asukha) vedanā are neutral feelings but could lead to uddacca, kukkucca, or vicikicca (basically not sure about what to do).
Based on those vipaka vadana, we may create “mind-made vedana” or samphassa-ja-vedana. This is where we accumulate new kamma.
When we start comprehending Four Noble Truths/Tilakkhana/Paticca Samuppada (PS), we will start seeing that attaching to sukha vedana can lead to future suffering. That leads to somanassa vedana type of samphassa-ja-vedana and we start accumulating new kamma via “avijja paccaya sankhara.”
– That is why the sutta says, “pleasant feeling, bhikkhus, should be seen as suffering”
– That is because that leads to future suffering since the PS process ends up with “dukkhakkhandha samudayo hoti”
On the other hand, we get distraught (patigha) with dukha vedana and that leads to “mind-made domanassa vedana”. Then again we generate new kamma via “avijja paccaya sankhara.”
– Here one suffers two ways. One due to that vipaka vedana. The second in the future due to the kamma accumulated.
– That is why the sutta says, “painful feeling should be seen as a dart”, where it is suffering from beginning to end.
Furthermore, neutral vedana can also lead to new kamma due to not knowing how to respond to an arammana (due to uddacca, kukkucca, or vicikicca). When one learns Dhamma, one will not have doubts/uncertainties.
Details at, “Vēdanā (Feelings) Arise in Two Ways”
The Pali version of the sutta: “Dutiyavedanā Sutta
English translation that Raja provided: “Feelings”
Raja: Please remember to check the “Open link in a new tab” box when setting up a link (that is what I did in the above link). That way, the link will be opened in a new browser window. Then one can go back and forth between your post and the link.
January 20, 2021 at 8:56 pm #33097Raja_mwParticipant
can we say, in regard to Metta Bhavana (whether ariya or mundane) wishing for all being become happy, become Ariyas, is categorized as focusing/cultivating on somanassa vedana type of samphassa-ja-vedana?
can you give example or elaborate more about “vedanā are neutral feelings but could lead to uddacca, kukkucca, or vicikicca (basically not sure about what to do)”, what should i do if i become aware of neutral feeling whether at formal meditation sesion or while walking or eating?
is vēdanānupassanā all about seeing 3 kinds of vipaka vedana as suffering;dart;anicca and cooling down the samphassa-ja-vedana?
how does one become skillful in regard to vēdanānupassanā, please give some daily example
January 21, 2021 at 6:22 am #33100
What we need to focus on is not a particular type of vedana.
– We need to see the root cause of dukkha (suffering). How those vedana can lead to suffering.
1. There are things in the world that bring us sukha vedana. For example, eating certain foods lead to sukha vedana. There is nothing wrong or unnatural about it.
– But if we get attached to that sukha vedana, we start generating “mind-made” or “samphassa-ja-vedana.” Those are “greedy thoughts” and can lead to dasa akusala by the mind, speech, and deeds.
2. There are things in the world, that when experienced, give dukha vedana. For example, if one sees an enemy, one generates a dukha vedana instantaneously. We need to let it go right there.
– But if we get attached to that dukha vedana, we start generating “mind-made” or “samphassa-ja-vedana.” Those are “angry thoughts” and can lead to dasa akusala by the mind, speech, and deeds.
3. There are things in the world, that when experienced, give neutral vedana. But one may not quite understand what is experienced and may respond foolishly. Here, uddacca, kukkucca, or vicikicca (basically not sure about what to do.) For example, one may be asked to learn Dhamma by a parent or a friend. But one may not see any benefit in that and not follow-up. One has doubts (vicikicca) about the benefits of learning Dhamma.
– So, one may even generate bad thoughts about it and may even argue that “it is useless to spend time on learning Dhamma.”
– Another example is not believing in rebirth. One may try to argue saying that there is no evidence for rebirth, etc.
– One may treat another person badly (without any reason), just because that person is poor/ugly, etc. That involves uddacca/kukkucca.
– Again, one would start generating “mind-made” or “samphassa-ja-vedana.” Depending on each of the above situations they are various types of “foolish thoughts” and can lead to dasa akusala by the mind, speech, and deeds.
4. All those situations involve generating sankhara via “avijja paccaya sankhara.” They INEVITABLY lead to other steps in Paticca Samuppada (PS) and end up with the last step, “jati paccaya jara, marana, etc., i.e., “the whole mass of suffering.”
– Thus it is not about feelings, but how those “mind-made feelings” (“samphassa-ja-vedana”) lead to suffering.
5. No matter how much I try, people do not tend to realize what is meant by sankhara. They are our thoughts!
– We speak based on our thoughts. Those thoughts are vaci sankhara.
– We act based on our thoughts. They are kaya sankhara.
– We can control both those by being mindful, and avoiding “bad sankhara” and cultivating “good sankhara”. “Bad sankhara” are involved in the “akusala-mula PS” AND “good sankhara” are involved in the “kusala-mula PS”
6. Those thoughts that automatically come to the mind are mano sankhara. To change those we need to change our gati (character/habits). Those will gradually change when we focus on vaci and kaya sankhara.
7. So, I suggest learning more about “san”, sankhara, and Paticca Samuppada.
May be a good start is:
“What is “San”? Meaning of Sansāra (or Saṃsāra)”
January 26, 2021 at 11:44 am #33146
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