Reply To: Post on “Salāyatana Are Not Sense Faculties”


Saḷāyatana Are Not Sense Faculties


“The sixth external āyatana (dhammā) incorporates the four mental aggregates. Nāmagotta contains all records of the four mental aggregates.”

Vb 2

“Tattha katamaṁ dhammāyatanaṁ? Vedanākkhandho, saññākkhandho, saṅkhārakkhandho, yañca rūpaṁ anidassanaappaṭighaṁ dhammāyatanapariyāpannaṁ, asaṅkhatā ca dhātu.”

I wonder why there is no viññāṇakkhandho in this sentence. If nāmagotta contains all records of the four mental aggregates, why vibhanga defines dhammāyatana by using only three of them?

Also, #6 said: “That makes sense since the six internal and five external āyatana takes into account the rupakkhandha.”

But in Pe 6: “Dasa rūpaāyatanāni cakkhu rūpā ca yāva kāyo phoṭṭhabbā ca, ayaṁ rūpakkhandho.”

I wonder why there are these discrepancies with Tipitaka. I thought I understood, but on reflection, I don’t think so. When I thought I understood, I thought this:

“Pancakkhandha and Salayatana have the same extension, they just have different approaches. Pancakkhandha is more focused on the contents of information, but salayatana is on the occurrence process of information. That’s why dhammāyatana incorporates both dhammā and namagotta.”

Laydhammafollower said in #44645:

“RūpakKhanda is not stored, it is generated as needed from other four aggregates.

When memory is recalled, Rūpakkhanda is regenerated from four aggregates stored in kamma bhava.

And this process of recalling involves energy. So, that is why dhamma comes to mind as dhammā.”

But lal said in #44649:

“1. Rūpakkhanda is preserved in nāmalōka as namagotta. It is just a record without any energy.

2. So, there are two types of entities in the nāmalōka: (i) dhammā with kammic energy and (ii) namagotta without energy.
– dhammā can “come back” to our minds on their own. That is how kamma vipaka takes place. When the conditions are right, they bring vipaka.”

And, Phassa (Contact) – Contact With Pasāda Rupa said:

Cakkhāyatana Is Cakkhu Pasāda Rupa
3. Cakkhāyatana is not the eyes. The “seeing” takes place in the mind, and the “seat of the mind” is the hadaya vatthu. The image captured by the eyes gets transmitted to the cakkhu pasāda rupa, which transfers the image to the hadaya vatthu.”

I think this post says clearly that kammaja kaya is ayatana.

But according to the post, ayatana is only mental, it can not be made of physical rupa.

Looking at these different explanations and discrepancies with Tipitaka, I think I’m quite lost. I tried to find a way to construct my questions more keenly to know the foundation of the definition of rupakkhandha. I’d like lal to answer yes or no.

Q1: Rupakkhandha contains paccuppana kammaja kaya? – I think it does not. Because it is made of satara mahabhuta. Or I’m completely wrong about paccuppana.

Q2: Rupakkhandha contains manāyatana? – I’m not sure whether it does or not. If it does, I’d like to know the reference in Tipitaka to make sure. In Vb 2: Chabbidhena manāyatanaṁ—cakkhuviññāṇaṁ, sotaviññāṇaṁ, ghānaviññāṇaṁ, jivhāviññāṇaṁ, kāyaviññāṇaṁ, manoviññāṇaṁ. Evaṁ chabbidhena manāyatanaṁ. So if rupakkhandha contains manāyatana, rupakkhandha has six vinnanas too.

Rupakkhandha is all mental impressions of physical rupa, but it is not the mental aggregates(vedanakkhandha, sannakkhandha, sankharakkhandha, vinnanakkhanda). Is there a reason why isn’t rupakkhandha categorized as nama in here even though it is mental?

Kamma Viññāna is not strictly mental and is responsible for the Nāmarūpa Formation leading to the arising of rupa.”

I wrote it down here and read vibhanga again.

Vb 2

Dasavidhena manāyatanaṁ—cakkhuviññāṇaṁ, sotaviññāṇaṁ, ghānaviññāṇaṁ, jivhāviññāṇaṁ, kāyaviññāṇaṁ atthi sukhasahagataṁ, atthi dukkhasahagataṁ, manodhātu, manoviññāṇadhātu atthi kusalaṁ, atthi akusalaṁ, atthi abyākataṁ. Evaṁ dasavidhena manāyatanaṁ.

Does manāyatana contains viññāṇakkhandha? And that’s why viññāṇakkhandha is not defined in dhammāyatana? I don’t think it is, but I just tried to find the reason why viññāṇakkhandha is not referred to in Ayatana vibhanga.

Vb 2

Ekādasāyatanā saṅkhatā. Dhammāyatanaṁ siyā saṅkhataṁ, siyā asaṅkhataṁ.

Is this a reference to namagotta being permanent? I understand that sankhata means everything that goes through three stages: uppada, thiti, and vaya. And namagotta is permanent, so it can not get ‘vaya’. In that context, can namagotta be called asankhata? So, there is another way of the usage of the word asaṅkhata instead of referring to Nibbana? Because Vb 2 also said: Tattha katamā asaṅkhatā dhātu? Rāgakkhayo, dosakkhayo, mohakkhayo—ayaṁ vuccati “asaṅkhatā dhātu”.