Four Conditions for Attaining Sōtapanna Magga/Phala

In my experience I don’t think it matters much. I feel I’ve received benefits from not only listening to recorded talks but also from reading explanations and talks that have been recorded, translated and written down into books. The thing that is most important is that the mind is able to understand the concept being explained.

What Vince said is true for making general progress.

Upekkha100’s question is specifically on attaining the Sotapanna stage. In the Sotā­patti­phala­ Sutta (SN 55.55) it says: “Cattārome, bhikkhave, dhammā bhāvitā bahulīkatā sotā­patti­phala­sacchi­kiriyāya saṃvattanti. Katame cattāro? Sap­purisa­saṃ­sevo, saddham­mas­savanaṃ, yoniso­ma­nasikāro, dhammā­nu­dhammap­paṭi­patti..”

So, “saddham­ma ­savanaṃ” or “listening to correct Dhamma” is one of the 4 requirements to attain the Sotapanna stage.

Now, as upekkha says: “I would think that the energy that was emanating from the Ariya’s mind(as the desana was being delivered) would be able to reach the mind of X.” is likely to play a role.

The question is whether that “live listening” is necessary or whether a recorded desana is sufficient.

We may never get a conclusive answer, but Waharaka Thero probably had some valid reasons to say that it would be sufficient to listen to a recorded desana by an Ariya.

Here is another thing to think about:
As I explained in an answer to another question today, we need to think about how the “sota indriya” (which is not the same as the physical ear) works.

Sound waves are transmitted through air as waves of air compressions, just like water wave that propagate outwards when a stone is dropped in water.
– Air compressions hit the ear drum inside “the physical ear”, and makes it vibrate.
– Those vibrations are sent to the brain and the brain converts them to a “sound signal” (this is how a microphone converts spoken words to an electric signal too) which it then transmits to the “sota pasada rupa” located close to the hadaya vatthu in the mental body (gandhabba); see, “Brain – Interface between Mind and Body“.

Now, when a recorded signal is played back, it re-creates that same sound wave propagating through air. Therefore, whether listening alive or via listening to a recording, one’s ear drums will generate the same signal.

Therefore, other than effect of being exposed to the “javana energy of cittas” while listening to a live desana (mentioned above), the actual sound reaching the sota pasada rupa will be the same.

So, while it could be better to listen directly, listening to a recorded desana is likely to be enough.

From the accounts of some people at this forum, and also according to those who have listened to Abhaya Thero’s desanas on internet, listening to a recorded desana seems to be sufficient.

Magga phala citta (attaining the Sotapanna stage) happens DURING listening to a desana.

However, one may not realize it until even a few weeks later, when one starts realizing that some of one’s gathi have changed.

This is a new bit of information for me, and also very intriguing and intricate.

The reason I gave my own take was because in my experience – although I’ve read a lot of Dhamma material and listened to a many desansas from different monks as well as Lal’s own talks – I’ve always felt that my strongest revelations and feelings of niramisa sukha came from things that I read, rather than the talks that I listened to.

That’s not to say that I prefer one method of learning over the other, but that’s just how it seemed to work out for me personally.

@Vince

I had the same but later on, it’s switched to listening.

Hi Upekkha100,

These are just my thoughts;

Sound needs to travel from the person talking to the listener, so a listener closest to the one talking will hear it before someone else sitting further away (even by mili-seconds). So I doubt that the gap between the time that the words are spoken and the time another hears it has any impact.

How about the use of a microphone and a sound system? Would you need to directly hear it from the mouth and would the use of machinery interfere in the necessary conditions? Again, given that most (if not all) sermons these days are relayed through sound systems and the number of people who have attained magga pala by listening to such sermons, we can assume that the use of such sound systems too have no negative impact.

Linking the above two, listening to a recorded sermon should be sufficient. This again is corroborated by accounts of people as well. I am no physicist or scientist so this may not be a good scientific deduction, so please excuse me if this is incorrect.

As another thero (Nivathapa thero) has mentioned listening to Dhamma face to face would be better than listening a sermon live though radio / tv/ youtube. And listening to it live would be better than listening to it recorded.

As I understand javana is part of citta. But is javana also part of the physical sound or the sadda rupa?

“As I understand javana is part of citta. But is javana also part of the physical sound or the sadda rupa?”

I think we can say that there are two possible contributions from one’s speech.

1. The actual javana power is emitted when one speaks (or even consciously thinks). These are the real “sadda rupa” or suddhashtaka that are emitted due to the citta generated in one’s mind.

– These are part of the “aura” emitted by our bodies.
– As I said before, it is likely that these “citta kirana” that are emitted by citta (also called “cittaja rupa”) could affect the listener.
– We do not know what fraction of the “total effect” comes from this.

2. However, the “message” embedded in spoken words can be reproduced in a recording. Again, I explained this in the previous post.

The relative contributions of the two effects may not be quantified. It probably depends on the speaker/listener combination too.

Even if the speaker is the same, two people even listening at the same time may not get the same benefits. It will depend on the listener ability grasp material as well as the listener’s state of mind (even a person with a sharp mind may not be able to grasp the message, if the mind was agitated at that time).

An idea about the complexity of this issue can be seen by listening to Dhammaruwan’s recitals in the post, “Boy Who Remembered Pāli Suttas for 1500 Years“.
– I added a recording from him as an adult in #6; some of you may not have seen that if you read the original post. I made the addition later.
– It is very clear that the chantings of Dhammaruwan as a child is much more powerful than his recital as an adult. Therefore, that “effect” had been captured in the recording.

In other words, even though the javana power emitted only during the time one’s conscious thoughts are generated, a significant part of the “effect” of the actual speech is captured in a recording.

The actual “sound wave” can be repeated in a recording, as I explained in the previous post. The sound wave hitting the ear drum of a listener is pretty much the same.

We can also see this when we think about the fact that millions of people can learn about a given subject by listening to a tape of recorded instructions these days.

I personally think audio contains javana power and reading contains it too but to a lesser degree. (When you read you record it or “hear it” with your mind so soundwave related to javana power are revibrating in your mind anyway)

I have some theories about it but recording actually saves the wave-pattern of citta which is secured in sound. I think we could scientifically reconstruct part of this citta just to the sound but the problem is just a medium and needed Ariya insight and explanations which we are not aware of and not understand yet which I think may or may not be reproduced scientifically. If we could actually understand the mechanism behind it we could develop a technical process to trigger those things by the outside meaning but those are just theories, keep that in mind.

The thing is when Ariya is recorded there is javana citta in forms of waveforms and right meanings and understanding which opens up a mind of a person who hears and have conditions to revibrate with it so to speak.

I’m not trying to be argumentative here, but this concept really doesn’t make any sense to me. For me, how comprehensible the Dhamma being taught is to the audience at hand is of paramount importance, not the method in which it is delivered.

I say this because I listened to countless desanas as a monk and as a layman and, while I felt that they were beneficial, I never felt like I had made significant progress until I discovered Pure Dhamma and read about concepts like san, gandhabba, the difference between bhava and jati, the true meaning of Tilakkhana, dukkha and all of the etymological break downs of Pali words and their relationship to the Sinhala language. The clarity and understanding I felt from reading about these things was immediate and intense, far greater than anything I’d experienced from listening.

@Lal

Could the fact that I was ordained during the time I absorbed all of this information be another factor to consider? How significant of a role would it play in accelerating one’s progress and also, is it possible to bypass that need to physically hear a sound to attain magga phala if one is absorbing Dhamma while one is ordained?

@upekkha100:
Can there be a difference between spoken words and written words if they have the same words?
– This is the point that we seem to have finally converged to.

There could be a big difference. Let me give an example.

Suppose a little child is about to touch a red-hot cooking surface, because it looks attractive. If the mother sees that, how would she say, “Don’t touch it!”?.
– The tone of her voice will tell the child it would be dangerous to touch it. The child would immediately pull back.

On the other hand, if someone watching just said, “Don’t touch it!” without any emotion in the voice, the child may not even hear that. Even if she hears it, she may not pay any attention to it.
– But those are exactly the same words!

That “tone of voice” is captured in a recording.

Vince asked: “Could the fact that I was ordained during the time I absorbed all of this information be another factor to consider? How significant of a role would it play in accelerating one’s progress and also, is it possible to bypass that need to physically hear a sound to attain magga phala if one is absorbing Dhamma while one is ordained?”

Yes. It would definitely play a role in making understanding concepts easier. When one is living the life of a bhikkhu, there are less things to worry about, and one’s mind could expected to be relatively more calm. Furthermore, the environment is more peaceful and calm too.
– However, per that sutta that I quoted earlier, attaining Sotapanna phala happens only while listening to an Ariya, whether one is a bhikkhu or not.

It is also important to note that this listening requirement is not there for higher magga phala. The help of an Ariya is needed only for the attainment of Sotapanna phala.

I read this verse in Therigatha:

I.17 — Dhamma {v. 17}

Wandering for alms —
weak, leaning on a staff,
with trembling limbs —
I fell down right there on the ground.
Seeing the drawbacks of the body,
my mind was then set free.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/thig/thig.01.00x.than.html#sutta-1

Can we really know the conditions for such breaktrough moments?

Sieb

Siebe said: “Can we really know the conditions for such breaktrough moments?”

That is true. There are many things that we cannot really explain with our limited understanding. Only a Buddha can “see” these things in full detail. For example, we will never figure out why there are only 17 citta in citta vithi. That is just how Nature works. Even the Buddha just DISCOVERED such laws.
– Another factor is that full understanding of a certain issue may come from a different angle, while comprehending a different subject.
– In any case, it is not bad to try to examine a given concept in depth. It is called “vimanasa”.

However, I think I have given a reasonable explanation to the key question about why listening can be more powerful than reading the same words (and the words uttered by an Ariya can have a stronger effect than the same words uttered by a normal person, even with recordings).
– We cannot find explanations for each and every issue in Abhidhamma. It is not possible to write everything down. In fact, the Tipitaka was transmitted orally for several centuries before it was written down. I am amazed that it has just enough information, and most of the time we can fill in the blanks.
– If we fill-in-the-blanks with wrong stuff, that will become obvious sooner or later, when compared with another issue. If so, we need to take care of that, and that is how we make progress.
– That is what is meant by “self-consistency”. Everything in the Tipitaka is self-consistent.

Hi Siebe!
“Can we really know the conditions for such breaktrough moments?”
Could you explain in detail that verse???
Or Someone else??/

“…one of the stages of Nibbana was attained without listening to a desana by an Ariya. …But they were for the higher stages of Nibbana after the Sotapanna stage(Sakadagami, Anagami, Arahant).”

This would be the case for jati Sotapannas, I figure out. (Those who are at least Sotapannas, or higher, and do not know it). That IS a question.

Metta

Vince said:
“I never felt like I had made significant progress until I discovered Pure Dhamma and read about concepts like san, gandhabba, the difference between bhava and jati, the true meaning of Tilakkhana, dukkha and all of the etymological break downs of Pali words and their relationship to the Sinhala language. The clarity and understanding I felt from reading about these things was immediate and intense, far greater than anything I’d experienced from listening”.
That was what happened to me too. Exactly the same!

upekkha100 said: “English:
“Wandering for alms — weak, leaning on a staff, with trembling limbs — I fell down right there on the ground. Seeing the drawbacks of the body, my mind was then set free. ”

In Pali it is:
“Vīrā vīrehi dhammehi,
bhikkhunī bhāvitindriyā;
Dhāreti antimaṃ dehaṃ,
jetvā māraṃ savāhinin”ti ”

That is not the Pali verse for the above translation.

The gāthā is:
“Piṇḍapātaṃ caritvāna,
daṇḍamolubbha dubbalā;
Vedhamānehi gattehi,
tattheva nipatiṃ chamā;
Disvā ādīnavaṃ kāye,
atha cittaṃ vimucci me”ti.
(17. Dhammā­therī­gāthā)

Obviously that bhikkhuni had attained the Sotapanna stage previously. She saw the drawbacks of the physical body and was able to overcome the remaining 7 samyojana.

Only the Sotapanna stage requires listening to Dhamma. Without that “vision” of the anicca, dukkha, anatta nature, one cannot attain the Sotapanna stage. Once one has that correct “picture of the 31 realms”, then one needs to lose the “wrong sanna” too. That happens via the the next stages and is completed at the Arahant stage.
– The bhikkhuni could have had the Sotapanna, Sakadagami, or the Anagami stage.

Yes. She could have attained the Sotapanna stage in a previous life. One needs to “see” the real nature of this world only once. Once “seen” it is never lost.

And I need to add to that the following comment below:
Some time ago (more or less 15-20 days) I felt intense Joy when reading for the first time the Sutta “Dvayatānupassanā Sutta-3.12. Observation of Dualities (Sutta Nipāta – Dvayatānupassanā Sutta – 3.12. Observation of Dualities)
“in my car, when I’m driving for work, I usually listen to the desanas, because I recorded a flash drive with a lot of Lal desanas, to used my ear with the English spoken (I work and live in São Paulo, Brazil), but I never felt felt anything similar though it has almost adorned some desanas …

And I had the same feeling months ago while reading a Post of Pure Dhamma on Kamma, where Lal explained about an intricate mechanism that led to a particular result and probably for this reason, Angulimala that had 999 shares(kamma) leading to hell, surpassed all these actions by carrying out this knowledge (something like that). And Lal added that who could understand the mechanism would be at least someone who held the State of Sotapanna. I had to read it two times, but I understand perfectly. Unfortunately I searched and couldn’t find what Post was…

Lvalio said “And Lal added that who could understand the mechanism would be at least someone who held the State of Sotapanna”, this is the first time I heard of this, although I’ve read almost all the posts on this site (included forum posts).

I heard Lal said about the story of an elder monk who excel in Dhamma knowledges. He often teaches Dhamma to other Ariyas, but he himself hasn’t attained Sotapanna yet.

So understanding mechanism of how things work is very helpful, but it has little to do with actual Panna (understanding of Tilakkhana, Satara Ariyasacca). The Buddha even said that the mechanism of Kamma is on of the 4 “Unthinkable” (Acinteyya) and will lead to madness if one pursues. But understand the general schemes of Kamma, Rebirth, Loka is very helpful to grow Panna too.

Lvalio said: ” I felt intense Joy when reading for the first time the Sutta “Dvayatānupassanā Sutta-3.12. Observation of Dualities (Sutta Nipāta – Dvayatānupassanā Sutta – 3.12. Observation of Dualities)”

That is indeed a good sutta that explains the way to Nibbana. I just read it. Thanks for that reference.

You can try to locate relevant posts by using the “Search box” on top right. It comes with a list of regular posts and relevant comments in the forum. Search for “Angulimala” and may be you can find it that way.

It is essential that one must learn about the Tilakkhana from an Ariya to get to the Sotapanna stage.
– However, “learning about the true explanation of Tilakkhana” is not enough, as Tien pointed out with the example of Ven. Potila that I discussed in a past post.

However, if one truly believes that one has an understanding of the “unfruitful nature” or the “anicca nature” one could be a Sotapanna or a Sotapanna Anugami. One could probably confirm for oneself by comparing whether one’s behavior has changed.

The best example I can give is about one trying to quit smoking. So, he learns about the bad consequences of smoking.
– If he really gets the idea that it is dangerous to keep smoking, he would at least cut down on smoking.
– But it may take some time to totally quit, by really getting the “sanna” that it is indeed dangerous to smoke.
– However, if the message DID really register in his mind, sooner or later, he would totally quit. Then there is no doubt.

“It is essential that one must learn about the Tilakkhana from an Ariya to get to the Sotapanna stage.” Should that not be ‘listen’ rather than ‘learn’ ?

“However, if one truly believes that one has an understanding of the “unfruitful nature” or the “anicca nature” one could be a Sotapanna or a Sotapanna Anugami”

So, does it follow that ‘if one truly believes that one has an understanding of the unfruitful nature or the anicca nature” yet never listened to a desana from an Ariya, he must have done so in a previous life.

I feel this is important to point out, as, like Vince and Lvalio (and probably others as well) I too find the impact of reading greater than listening. I share totally Lvalio’s quote from Vince’s post. (December 26, 2018 at 10:01 am). Also, in my case, I felt the breakthrough had happened the moment I discovered Puredhamma..as if.. ‘the rest will now follow as a matter of course’.

Has anyone else experienced this?

@ynot

Yes, but this is not Sotapanna stage. Many people take many experiences even beyond Pure Dhamma as Sotapanna stage even people who practice hinduism or other stuff often treat some experiences as such. If you go further you will have a more and clearer breakthrough into Sotapanna for sure. The first reaction is a very good sign but you can not stop from that just keep going with it till CLEAR understanding will be developed which is kind of beyond six senses but still comprehended by the mind.

You can not take symptoms of healing for a feeling of being healthy. It should be viewed like that.

Christian,

I did not say that it was. My question (para 3) was another, based on the two preceding quotes.

Your’reply’ deals with my closing line ‘ I felt a breakthrough…’ but that was just sharing my experience to add up to the listening/reading effect, but it was never a question (about it being the Sotapanna Stage).

I edited this post to make sure there is no misunderstanding

Metta

Here is what we know from the suttas. For example, from the Dutiya­ sāri­putta­sutta (SN 55.5): ““Sap­purisa­saṃ­sevo hi, bhante, sotā­patti­yaṅgaṃ, saddham­mas­savanaṃ sotā­patti­yaṅgaṃ, yoniso­ma­nasikāro sotā­patti­yaṅgaṃ, dhammā­nu­dhammap­paṭi­patti sotā­patti­yaṅgan”ti.

Now, saddham­mas­savanaṃ means “listening to Saddhamma or the correct Dhamma”.
P.S. Of course, printed material was not widely available at the time of the Buddha. It is, however, possible that the “tone” of an Ariya could make a difference. So, this is one those issues that we may not have a definite answer.

As for whether listening to recorded desanas count, again we will not know for sure. But Waharaka Thero’s opinion was that it would.

There is the second issue of the attainment of the Sotapanna stage, here are two extremes that have been reported in the Tipitaka:

1. Bhikkhu Potila KNEW inside out of the Tipitaka (but had not really comprehended Tilakkhana). Therefore, he had not attained the Sotapanna stage:
   Are You Not Getting Expected Results from Meditation?
2. On the other hand, there was a princess who had attained the Sotapanna stage at age 7, and then eloped with a person who lived by hunting animals and selling their meat. I don’t remember the reference in the Tipitaka. If someone knows, please post it.

• There was Sarakani brahmin, who drank a lot, attained the Sotapanna stage in his old age, but could not remove his habit of drinking even after attaining the Sotapanna stage: Paṭha­ma­ Saraṇā­ni­sakka ­Sutta (SN 55.24).

P.S. It is quite clear that “comprehending Tilakkhana” cannot be put into words. It is a “vision of the true nature of this world”.
– Another important point is that those who are able to “get it” do not do that without prior effort. They had made much progress in past lives.
– That is why making the effort now will not go to waste.

So, it is impossible for others to determine whether a given person has attained the Sotapanna stage. The person would need to decide that based on his/her experience.
– In any case, if someone can “feel the joy” of Dhamma, it is likely that one is at least getting close to the Sotapanna Anugami stage. Again, there is no “test” for that either.
– It is best to keep striving regardless of what the status is. That effort will not go to waste.

By the way, this “feeling of joy” (piti) when learning Dhamma (whether listening or reading) is a good sign. It leads to sukha, samadhi, and eventually to Nibbana, as described in the Upanisa Suatta (SN 12.23):

“..dukkhūpanisā saddhā, saddhūpanisaṃ pāmojjaṃ, pāmojjūpanisā pīti, pītūpanisā passaddhi, passad­dhū­pani­saṃ sukhaṃ, sukhūpaniso samādhi, samādhūpanisaṃ yathā­bhūta­ñāṇadas­sanaṃ, yathā­bhūta­ñāṇadas­sanūpa­nisā nibbidā, nibbidūpaniso virāgo, virāgūpanisā vimutti, vimuttūpanisaṃ khayeñāṇaṃ.”

You may want to read different translations and see which one is better. I will translate at some point, but the idea should be clear in any translation.

‘– It is best to keep striving regardless of what the status is. That effort will not go to waste.’

Thank you Lal.

That princess was Visakha. Googling the name I came across several references (AN 1 chp 14; Dhp v 53; Dha 1.383 and viii.i. 243 ff). I am sure some one else can do better.

http://creative.sulekha.com/the-early-buddhist-women-stories-five-visakha

“3.1. When Visakha was about seven years old, the Buddha visited Bhaddiya with a large company of monks. Mendaka offered several gifts to the Sangha; and invited the Buddha and his monks to his mansion and offered hospitality for a fortnight. Visakha an active, inquisitive and a lively child played around the monks and the Buddha. She was always questioning about the things that the monks did and said; and about Dhamma. The Buddha was fond of the little girl.

3.2. It is said when the Buddha departed from Bhaddiya for Anguttarapa (another city in Anga province), Mendaka instructed his servants to follow the Buddha with abundant provisions, food and fresh milk; as also ghee and butter until the party reached its destination. (DhA.i.384)(Viii.i.243ff).”

And….
http://ariyamagga.net/story-visakha/:

“When Visakha was seven years old, the Buddha came on a tour to Bhaddiya. On that occasion, the rich man Mendaka took Visakha and her five hundred companions with him to pay homage to the Buddha. After hearing the discourse given by the Buddha, Visakha, her grandfather and all her five hundred companions attained Sotapatti Fruition.”

It was not Vishaka, y not. But thanks for trying to find the reference.

It is correct that Visakha also attained the Sotapanna stage an early age. But she married a rich person.

Ah!

Metta

upekkha100 said: “These breakthroughs, are they not same as epiphanies/sudden realizations/aha moments/eureka moments. These realizations are not exclusive to Ariyas. Numerouss people have these…”

Yes. Scientists or innovators have such feelings too upon “figuring out something new”.

But there is a huge difference in the experience of the Ariyas. This is the only way to get to Ariya samadhi, which will get to a stage where it cannot be broken. This is what I explained in my previous post (with Upanisa Sutta).
– All others are just temporary.

Finalmente após varios dias de procura, achei o Post procurado e citado por mim no Comentario de December 26, 2018 at 10:37 am:
Ye Dhammā Hetuppabhavā..and Yam Kińci Samudaya Dhammam..

Ye Dhammā Hetuppabhavā.. and Yam Kiñci Samudaya Dhammam..

I had looking for it all those days and just now I found That, just now! . I will put here only the last paragrafo:
“17. Please do not hesitate to ask questions at the forum if this is not clear. Kamma viññāna are discussed in detail at: “Kamma Viññāna – Link Between Mind and Matter”.
 The process of how past kamma try to bring vipāka with vipāka viññāna is discussed in detail at, “Avyākata Paticca Samuppāda for Vipāka Viññāna“.
 Of course one needs to really understand what is meant by all these terms (vēdanā, tanhā, upādāna, etc.) in order to understand these processes; see, “Mental Aggregates“.
 If one can truly comprehend this post, one could get to the Sōtapanna stage, because this is really seeing the “way to Nibbana“, i.e., how to stop the future suffering permanently. This is about getting to lokottara Sammā Ditthi”.

Lair

May the blessings of TRIPLE GEM stay with all of you!
I am very, very grateful to all of you, mainly to LAL that Show me the TRUE PATH to Nibbana!
Thanks to Thien, because his post make me work hard to find the Post´s Lal !
Actually I had been printing all the Posts first, because my eyes don´t bear too much time in front the computer. Although I have a big monitor (23 pol).
But for that search I must use the computer. Too many books to read…
Now I must begin to read again all this pots to answer someone…
But I will do it tomorrow
Thank you very, very much. Like INFLIB´S Words: “You are my Sangha!”
Lair

Thank you, Lair, for posting the link to that post.

Yes. There are not many people (including some Sotapannas) who may not really understand what vinnana is.
– I am glad to see that the level of understanding of the people who participate at our forum here is way better than even some scholars who write books.
– They do not have any idea how important the concept of vinnana is, or even what vinnana really means.

It is not necessary to go that deep into vinnana to become a Sotapanna.

However, if one has understood vinnana at that level, one is likely to be a Sotapanna.

May the blessings of TRIPLE GEM be with all of you always!
In my previous post for a lapse of memory I put the beginning of the post in Portuguese. Here is the translation to English:
“Finally after several days of searching(3), I found the Post sought and quoted by me on the December 26, 2018 at 10:37 am”:
Thanks very much to all of you!