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“I cannot find that sutta. IF YOU CAN PROVIDE A LINK to the Pāli sutta, I can take a look at it”
I just provided that link since you asked for it That was all. Again,I did not read the Pali version myself, so I was not aware the word Tathagatha was not there. Sorry if it wasted your and others’ time instead.
See what I mean about my intentions being misunderstood?
Metta
Lal,
I am not disputing the meaning of Tathagata as you give it, nor even delving into the etymology of the word. I did not read the Pali version myself. All I tried to do was to provide you access to the source Yeos quoted, so that you may go into it if you wish.
Ah..it must be easier in higher realms.
Lal:
Yes, that list is the first link I gave. Scrolling down to the 3rd heading is Tikanipata, and #8 there is Anandavaggo. The SECOND link gets you there directly. The lines Yeos quotes are the very last 4 verses.
Just for your info
Lal:
…found it. I googled metta.net. Pali as well. AND Sinhala for good measure.
http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-pitaka/4Anguttara-nikaya/index.html
Metta (of course !!)
Tobias,
“But 10 billion years for the destruction phase is much”
I had not thought of that. But now that you are mentioning it…what comes to mind is that it resembles decomposition of a physical body in a way: after physical death, that body will take time to be reduced to the most basic organisms. With stars and planets, the process goes further to atomic particles; followed by re-absorption into ‘nature’ (a long process, admittedly) then the void, no processes of nature taking place. When they start taking pace, formation….etc
There may be an analogy in the way stars convert hydrogen into helium. The hydrogen is there ‘all at once’ but the entire process takes billions of years. The ‘destruction’ is a process. I am not sure whether this analogy is an apt one.
Metta
May I reciprocate that friendly greeting of yours with ‘Hello, friend-in-the-Dhamma firewrns’
I had said:”…does away with the value of a human bhava.”
You go on: “..even outside of a Buddha Sasana, the human bhava has its own value too, though it is of course still anatta.”
Quite true. One can still ‘prepare the groundwork’,as it were, for when a Buddha IS around in the future through moral and virtuous living. I saw only the ‘cosmic aspect’ of it as I wrote. Thank you for reminding me, and others, of this.
This brings up another point I have been wanting to mention: why should it be that out of 10,000 stellar systems a Buddha appears only on this planet, or more precisely, on re-evolutions of it? What is so special about planet Earth? I am not comfortable with this special status of planet Earth and, all the more,that out of all those humanities, WE happen to be on it; it is true that is of no adverse consequence to the devas and brahmas on those other inhabited planets, but why should those in a human bhava here be so privileged compared to the ones on those other planets?
Whatever the answer to that, if there is one, as we never tire of reminding ourselves and one another: let not too much importance be attached to it-just a glance to the side. The goal lies straight ahead.
Metta
It is often stated that a human birth is very precious,primarily, but not solely,because the balance between pleasure and suffering is optimum to enable one to see into dukkha, its causes, and, with greater difficulty, into its results as also those of sukkha.
However,living as a human during a Buddha sasana is rare. The human bhavas one lives through outside of a Buddha sasana, without ‘the Dhamma in circulation’, or without any possibility of access to it, even during a Buddha sasana, does away with the value of a human bhava. That will be the case with most, even now. One is left to one’s own devices, as high as those may be, contemplating for instance, the implications of eternity, infinity, even perhaps to getting the fleeting idea from the material world all around as analogy,that all phenomena, even mental ones ,must have causes as well as results. But there is no way one could discover by oneself all that a Buddha reveals out of his once-in-a (or so many)- kappas Purity of Mind: the 31 realms, the 4 Noble truths, Tilakkhana,PS ,the intricate details in Abhidhamma and so on.
Therefore,on the practical side a human bhava acquires all the more value when one happens to be living through it during a Buddha sasana
This is to emphasize once more, if there were any need for it, the supreme importance of striving when the conditions happen to be just right.
Metta to all
Upekkha,
First of all, my definition of ISSA, except where I gave the source quoting Cambridge and others, has been my own, so I may be off somewhere there, or incomplete, depending on how it seems to others.
Now as to your questions:
1) It seems clear to me that a Sotapanna would have neither of the two.
2) I have no answer to this. I know I have never been envious, and always shied away strongly from open competiveness, satisfied to restrict myself to strive for my own goals treading on the paths of others as least as possible; yet I am far from being an Arahant.
Upekkha,
Those suttas are referring to the saddha of anariyas right? Not the aveccappasāda(unwavering saddha) of Ariyas’
Insight into this, along with an answer is found.
Please go back to the post:
Kamma and Kamma Vipāka › AN 10.219 Karayakayasutta (The Body born o f Deeds)
the last two entries speak about the opening verse of the Nitthangatasutta AN 10.63:
” all those who have come to a conclusion about me are accomplished in view. (“Ye keci, bhikkhave, mayi niṭṭhaṃ gatā sabbe te diṭṭhisampannā.”This, for common folk, that is, grammatically,may be taken in two ways: 1) aveccappasada in the Buddha leads to sammaditthi; i.e because of their reverence, esteem,veneration, and an unswerving and ULTIMATE, FINAL , having come to a stop, a conclusion, with no further room for it beyond (Nittha) , owing to that ditthisanpanna results. 2) because of ditthisanpanna all those qualities, reverence……etc become attributed to the Buddha in one’s heart.
Now ditthi cannot arise in oneself just because one loves the Buddha. You find people owning Buddha heads and statues, some even boast about their collections of such, declare their ‘admiration’ of the Buddha, the calming influence these bring into their lives, and so on, yet they have no idea of the 10 types of micch ditthi. When one KNOWS that one has no problem with any of them, then one has sammaditthi. Living one’s internal life in line with that, and externally with the developement of kusala in deed, word and action, dana, sila in general and so on, aveccappasada arises. It is a feeling of great, of immense appreciation that is impossible to fully give expression to.
It is sammaditthi then that leads to magga phala, (as the rest of the Sutta shows) not mere pema (love) nor even aveccappasada itself, for that is only the natural consequence of ditthsanpanna.
I have not stopped contemplating this one verse ever since as it brings great joy and peace of mind. May you share in it, Upekkha
With Metta
“Again, as I understand, a Sotapanna would not have either.”
That is how it seems to me as well.
Now as to ENVY, we are agreed. Not so as to JEALOUSY, which means: being over-protective with the FEAR of losing to another whatever it is that you are so happy and proud to possess because it is the source of your happiness or wealth. The best example is that of being jealous of your wife or girlfriend lest some one else wins her love and you end up losing her.
But the way Lal has it: ‘Therefore, I try to pretend that I do not have much wealth’ does not seem to me to figure in the concept of ‘jealousy’ at all. So I would say we better stick to MACCARIYA here,and forget all about’jealousy'(!)
metta
Upekkha,
From Vatthasutta (The Simile of the Cloth) MN. 7
suttacentral.net/mn7/en/sujato
SC 3.2:
And what are the corruptions of the mind? Katame ca, bhikkhave, cittassa upakkilesā?
…..envy, stinginess, ….. issā cittassa upakkileso, macchariyaṃ cittassa upakkilesoSo two words are given to make the distinction, though the translation ‘stinginess’ does not convey the much greater evil inherent in ‘jealousy’
SC 4.12 – 4 15:
‘issā cittassa upakkileso’ti—iti viditvā issaṃ cittassa upakkilesaṃ pajahati;
macchariyaṃ cittassa upakkileso’ti—iti viditvā macchariyaṃ cittassa
upakkilesaṃ pajahati;ISSA would here then stand for envy and MACCARIYA for jealousy.
wisdomlib.org has :
Factor 9 – Issa (envy): When one hears about or meets an individual superior to one in beauty, wealth, education or morality one often feels envious. This unwholesome thought is issa (envy).accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.007 gives:
3…(7) envy…(8) jealousy; scrolling down to the Notes:
7. issa, envy
8. macchariya, jealousy, or avarice; selfishness;Even given all that, one must still make allowance for the fact that nowadays people say ‘I am jealous (of him)’ when they are in fact envious of him . Afterthought:…. no one ever says ‘I am envious (of my wife/gf)’ when they are jealous of her.
Metta to all
firewns,
I am not at all frustrated. Please rest assured that you have my understanding. And, moreover, I do not feel that you are ‘correcting’ me, except in that it was me perhaps who was not tactful enough to make what I meant quite clear.
You observe that I started off there with; ‘that is my position as well’, meaning to say ‘that is how it is WITH ME’. I was not making a statement to apply to everybody. As you say’It depends on the individual,…” I know the Buddha praised the attainment of jhanas, so it would be plainly WRONG of me to disparage them.
My whole point was to contrast all of that with the fruit of pasada(in the Buddha, Dhamma and sangha) ,aveccappasada, sammaditthi etc. and that in turn would be, to put it bluntly, that I deem jhanas and formal meditation to be beyond me.
May you attain Peace
Akvan,
That is my position as well.
Neither the development of jhanas nor formal meditation techniques are necessary to attain magga phala..In both activities there may be uncertainty both along the way and as to the final result, and that final result is not permanent. Therefore, neither can be their fruits.
But one knows when one has attained pasada in the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha, then aveccappasada (the striving to live a moral and virtuous life) follows. One has sammaditthi, no room for doubt is left.
I had read the para that you quote; the matter is made very clear there. No need for me to comment.
Metta
There exist different levels of ‘truth’.
The search for the origin of the world, of life and of man, through the study of astronomy, cosmology, cosmogony, anthropogenesis, theoretical physics and so on, noble as all that may sound, is still mundane. With new findings through direct observation or through new or modified views, the picture, ‘truth’, changes. It does not change in actual fact; it is only our perception of it that does.
But when one KNOWS that one has at last come to the Ultimate Truth, or to the path leading to It as a start, then all these studies become of secondary importance. And here is the danger for those who are instinctively pulled toward ‘finding Reality’ – those studies risk becoming of PRIMARY importance. But once one has had at least a glimpse of Buddhadhamma,, one’s efforts become concentrated on eliminating future suffering. What more worthwhile goal can there be?
The danger is passed only when one has acquired pasada in the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha and made a resolve to do one’s best, as a result of that, to live as moral a life as possible (by eliminating defilements) with constant mindfulness. And there are many, most, who are not even Sotapannas anugami ! And now they will find themselves irresistibly investigating the Aganna sutta. This is what Lal is constantly pointing out – not that there is nothing ‘of truth’ in that Sutta,(even though the truth about it is constant, ever-recurring here and in other stellar systems and galaxies, eternal); only that there is nothing worth taking time off the MAIN OBJECTIVE for.
One may not be able to or even be interested in developing jhanas and may not be certain what stage on the Path one is at (if any), but of pasada about the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha one can be sure of. The Path then lies clear ahead.
“Jealousy comes from another person owning “valuable stuff”.”
This is evny not jealousy. In common parlance the two terms have become interchangeable. Most often people are in fact experiencing the feeling of envy when they say ‘I am jealous'(of him, of her). Technically the two terms are given as (Cambridge):
Envy: To feel displeasure and ill-will at the superiority of another in happiness, success, and the possession of anything desirable”
Jealousy: An apprehension of losing something or someone to another, of losing a loved one to a rival. Typically a third person, a rival, enters the scene and attempts to take away a lover.
Now I do not know what the Pali word ISSA stands for exactly. My feeling is that it is envy that is meant, since that is the ‘mental groundwork’, to coin a phrase ,leading to potential theft or appropriation to oneself of something or someone belonging to another; while jealousy is ‘only’ LACK of generosity taken to the extreme, a total unwillingness to share, and a corresponding resolve to protect at all costs what one does have,EVEN BY FORCE.
The one has to do with extreme greed, the other with extreme selfishness/miserliness. There is more evil implied in the first. One is wanting MORE, the other is wanting to HOLD ONTO desperately.
I thought it relevant to make the distinction clear.
