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Lal: Our attachments to this world are triggered by sensory inputs. That is why the Loka sutta says it is the origin of the world. Once one understands how such attachments are triggered by “distorted sanna” it will be easier to avoid such attachments.
I understand that without distorted sanna there will be no attachment. However this does not mean that Bahiya understood the concept of attachment in the first place. He could have just “fixed” his distorted sanna without knowing that it removes the attachment which causes suffering!
Lal: Explanation of the deep meanings embedded in those verses requires many. many posts. Rebirth, suffering, 4 noble truths, paticca samuppada, kamma, tilakkhana, are all embedded in those verses.
From here do you imply that Bahiya was able to comprehend the basic rules of kamma, that suffering arises from ignorance, the paticca samuppada process just from these 4 lines? It seems highly impossible for me. I agree that one can link all the above concepts to the 4 lines, but to be able to know the existence of the concepts, let alone understand them seems not possible.
My interpretation is still that he was able to see the world as it is, and that could be bare minimum for enlightenment. There are many ways to explain the same truth, we may only need to see the truth through one aspect (in this case about distorted sanna), than needing to learn all other aspects. Perhaps, Lal, I could learn more from your upcoming posts if you do elaborate how every other important concepts are embedded in the lines and how Bahiya could have derived them.
Jittananto: The power of the Paramis and Kusulas of the past is demonstrated by Arahant Bahiya, who was a bhikkhu during the time of Lord Buddha Kassapa.
Could you point to me where you’ve learnt this? Thank you!
Yash: “Firstly, Everything in this universe is a manifestation of energy, the cars, the trees, the food, etc. all have atoms as the fundamental structure according to science. If we go deep,we get up to the quark level. In Buddha Dhamma it’s the Suddhataka.“
Yes! With this we can understand that everything is a product of cause and effect at that moment.Eg every second a fire burns is a product of some oxygen, an ignition and fuel. Meaning every second is a new manifestation! Because the causes are used up every second – eg i have to replenish the fuel every second. That can be said for everything in this world, even for inanimate objects. Eg every second a gold bar exist, it is because of the causes that the gold bar is at that temperature, the electromagnetic energies present within the gold bar. This also applies to people as well. This is how we can be “unshakeable” with the passing on of parents, because instead of seeing them as fixed entities, we have to see them as a product of cause and effect at every single moment. Their passing is simply due to the changes in conditions. From this we can see the anicca nature, that whatever fixed entities we think we like are actually just products of causes at that moment and they continue to be subjected to cause and effect.
Yash: “The bottom line is, you don’t even need to include time for Anicca. Even if someone earns a lot by selling drugs and is Enjoying sensuality, Anicca is there even at that moment.”
Yes! I thought that looking that things are of Anicca nature at that moment, without caring if it will last or not, can give you new insights. For example, even if something can last forever, and hypothetically if i can live forever to enjoy it and there is no rebirth, and hypothetically there are no kammic consequences for desiring it, one should still not desire it (anicca as undesirable). This is because of the understanding that the craving is mind made, the object actually does not bring happiness at all.
I have been thinking about how Bahiya gained enlightenment after one verse:
“Ditte Ditta Mattañ Bhavissathi ,
Suthe Sutha Mattañ Bhavissathi,
Mute Muta Mattañ Bhavissathi,
Viññāte Viññāta mattañ Bhavissathi”
“Where there is seeing, there is only the seeing
Where there is hearing, there is only the hearing,
Where there is feeling, there is only the feeling,
Where there is cognizing, there is only the cognizing.”
Here, there is no mention of rebirth, suffering, 4 noble truths, paticca samuppada, kamma, tilakkhana, and no mention that things are subject to changes. Which made me think that all these are not required at the bare minimum, one just has to understand that there is nothing more to the sense we perceive, and not create any more “mind made thoughts”. Of course, understanding of all the other things in the Buddha’s world view can help achieve this, but at the core essence it may not be required. Again I could be wrong, Bahiya could have gained this understanding somehow even before meeting the Buddha, perhaps in his past lives, but he does not have to remember it/ think about it to be enlightened.
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Lal: Thus, the kammic energy a human gandhabba acquires at the moment of its inception is enough to (i) sustain that gandhabba for many thousands of years and (ii) maintain interactions with the brain while inside a physical human body.
Then can we interpret that the “energy” required for a kammically neutral action, is just from a kamma vipaka?So perceiving sights, or generating a thought to tell the brain to move a finger?
In the end, our actions are all just due to either kamma vipaka or kamma generating
Thank you everyone. Perhaps Thero came up with this way of explanation to reach out to an audience with less exposure to the dhamma. However, with better understanding of the concepts, we should ultimately focus on interpreting from the tipitaka itself, eg anicca dukkha anatta, 4 noble truths.
Then, what energy is the energy which the mind tells the brain to move the hand? Surely there must be an energy for the mind to signal the brain to do something, or the brain to signal the mind sights, smells etc. I’m talking about actions with no kammic consequences, eg lifting a finger
On the topic of energy, I was thinking of how kammic energy can be converted to other forms of energy and vice versa. it seems possible in the following analysis:
The eye converts light energy to electrical energy (to go through nerves). The brain, acts as a transmitter, to convert electrical energy to “mind energy”, for us to be able to perceive the senses. The reverse is true (mind energy > electrical energy > kinetic energy to move the hand). I am quoting this example from one of Amandassana Thero’s sermons.
In this sense, would it be possible for our minds/ kammic energies to arise from other forms of energy, eg heat energy, which somehow became “defiled”? And after parinibbana, this energy reverts back to other normal forms of energy? I’m also thinking in terms of the law of conservation of energy, where in every closed system, the sum of energies must be kept constant. in this case after parinibbana, this mind energy should end up somewhere, right?
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Hi Lal, i haven’t had any physical/ verbal abuse that I can recall in detail. But you’re right in saying that if we have more details in the situation, eg how it arises, what the person thinks, why their thoughts arise this way, it will be much easier to answer!
And it also becomes easier to break down to 1) what a normal person would do, 2) what a sotapanna would do, 3) what an arahant would do to facilitate understanding.
What if someone looks away from their abuser because it gives them bad memories? Is that abhisankhara still?
In this case, it is not done out of greed/ hate, but i’m not sure about the ignorance part.
Another angle to look at is fear. Fear that they will be hit again. What can we classify this under?
Thank you, i had the belief that the Nibbana can be extrapolated from niramisa sukha.
I guess it is like someone explaining colours to a blind person. The blind person can only very very minutely grasp what colours are, eg “imagine a colour when you’re angry, that is red”. But the blind person can never comprehend the concept of colours fully.
Thank you for your respones
Y Not: “The first is suffering, the second relief and the third happiness. Here, recovery from pain is not the happiness, but is essential for happiness to follow. There can be no happiness where there is pain. ”
Actually this brings up another query i have, which is “is there happiness in Nibbāna?” I have felt the cooling down, eg less agitated, less stress when unfortunate circumstances happen, less vexed with less desires, but i don’t feel “happier”, just “less unhappy”.
To give a crude elaboration, let’s say a normal person’s happiness is at -20 because there is a lot of suffering, it will work towards 0 with less suffering, that’s what i’m feeling now. “happiness” implies that it can go from 0 to a positive number, eg 10, 20. I have heard this word used by several monks, “finding true happiness”. Is it true that there is more after “absence of suffering?”
Thank you for finding it! In that sutta,
“But a meditation subject as a foundation of immersion is properly grasped, focused on, borne in mind, and comprehended with wisdom.”
“api ca khvassa aññataraṁ samādhinimittaṁ suggahitaṁ hoti sumanasikataṁ sūpadhāritaṁ suppaṭividdhaṁ paññāya.”
does this refer to formal meditation, and which type of formal meditation does it refer to?
Thank you Lal. I understand that it is not possible to trace back. But then there is the next question of : When we attain nibbana, will it be possible for the mind to become eventually defiled, like how it was pure and become defiled?
Thank you Gopinadh, Tobi, Lal and Yash.
I agree that giving would be as what you all said, to give with compassion and not expect something in return. A benefit of this would be to of course, help us towards Nibbana, but that should ideally not be the main thought behind giving. However, this may be difficult initially.
Hence, I resonate with Gopinadh, “A “discpline” which was earlier imposed from outside and had to be implemented with great care and effort, now flows naturally. If it is required it flows out, else it rests.”
Perhaps at first, it may not be easy to give from compassion itself, and one has give for the goal of attaining Nibbana. One example is that 2 weeks ago, after listening to a desana on requiring good moral conduct to condition the mind for dhamma concepts, I thought to myself: “I will give this $10 note to the next beggar I see”. This act of kindness had to be prompted intially, and the goal was to clear my mind more so than to help the person. However as we cultivate it, it will flow naturally without prompting. After giving, I felt a lightness in my chest, and a clearer mind. Hopefully if this habit is cultivated, I will give without prompting.
And thank you Tobi for taking the time to link all the posts in your explanation. My aha moment was “Metta Bhavana thus establishes a mindset to grasp Pancakkhandha of every sentient being.” Well said! I can now carry out Metta Bhavana with this angle.
I am also very grateful for everyone’s explanations here, it is my first time on this forum and I am heartened by your efforts in helping me understand!
Thank you Yash and Lal for your explanations!
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