[pathfinder]

Thank you 🙏

[pathfinder]

Thank you for providing the transcript reference, Lang. I will take a deeper look into it. As Lal rightly mentioned, the translation may vary depending on the translator’s understanding.

[pathfinder]

Hmm, I still cant help but have the thought that it need not be so complicated. In Waharaka Thero’s How to attain Nibbana as a lay Buddhist (First Discourse), kindly translated by Janith Boniface Fernando. Thero did not explain the more complex mechanisms of how one’s gati influences rebirth, distorted sañña etc. He only uses simple logical arguments. He says the dhamma is supposed to be simple. I have quoted excerpts from the english transcript by Janith Boniface Fernando to get an idea the type of arguments:

(21.26) To find what Dhamma actually grants Nirvana, one has to get the phrase “yada nichchan – tan dukkhan; yan dukkhan – tadanaththa” clarrified. Only that much is required. In those days the disciples, having listened to this much, weren’t listening to Dhamma for hours, for years. May be one or two hours. No previous practice of listening to Dhamma even. The folks that came to the Lord Buddha to listen to what he had to say, did not even know what Buddhism is. The one who sat down to listen, by the time he got up after listening to a few phrases of Dhamma, had already become a stream enterer. So, it is very much clear now, the amount of Dhamma we should listen to grasp the concept of Nirvana, to visualsie what is Nirvana, is not so much.

He explains above why it should be simple

(38.00) “Icca” means the will or expectation, “Anicca” means not in accordance to the will. This is the cause. If something is not agreeable to the expectation, then it causes suffering. Now let’s have our thinking hats on. We don’t expect to have suffering, do we like that? No. Will it stop, just because we want the suffering to end. We don’t like suffering, but itbefalls. We don’t want something that we like to fall into disrepair. But can we avoid that from happening? It goes onto disrepair, so is this in accordance with our will or expectation? There, the Anicca means, not in accordance with our liking, it will not satisfy our expectation, unsatisfactory. Now we are feeling a pleasure, and it is going to pass. Do we like that, no. Will it stop from going to pass? Nope. It slips away. If there is something called pleasure, something called suffering, both are not in line with our liking, our expectation. Both will not satisfy us. If there is something called pleasure, something called suffering, both are not in line with our liking, our expectation. Both will not satisfy us. This is anicca, not to my liking.

As you can see, only “mundane” explanations of anicca, just logic and no metaphysical phenomenon.

(42.51) When you see the Dhamma, you see the truth, you see the Buddha. That is enlightenment. The enlightenment lies here, not in some highfalutin jargon. Thus, we have to see, that we cannot keep anything to our liking. We have to understand only this much. What is so difficult about it. We did not see this much in our way too long, samsaric journey. We didn’t have divine vision or some psychic power to see that. We were unable to see our previous births.

And he says that only this much is needed to be understood. 

He also described why we were unable to understand this simple logic – we could not see our previous births. Even though some yogis could, they believe that the high realms could provide refuge, which the Buddha also saw that there will be death. So perhaps this is the “previously unheard” teaching, and it need not go as far to distorted sañña/ rebirth dependent on gati for one to reach Nibbana. 

Of course, learning the deeper concepts are still helpful too.

[pathfinder]

Thank you. So to clarify

Mundane Tilakkhana:

Mundane Anicca – Things are not to our liking, anywhere in this 31 realms. They are bound to nature’s laws (laws to kamma), and are not to our control, we also have to give everything up at death. Nicca will be that there will at least be something to our liking, eg in higher planes, material objects.

Mundane Dukkha – Because of the anicca nature, if we attach to them, we will experience suffering (viparinama dukkha). We also face suffering as we spend effort work towards achieving and mantaining things (sankhara dukkha). 

Mundane Anatta – Because everything in this world has the above Anicca and Dukkha nature, they are not worth striving for, and provides no essence to us

Supramundane/ Arya Tilakkhana:

Supramundane Anicca – The world is of Anicca Nature because attaching on to things keep us in the rebirth process. This is especially if we do bad needs to achieve things, which will bring bad vipaka and even bring us to the Apayas. Nicca will be that there will be no kammic consequences to immoral deeds or attaching to things and we can do as we like. You said:

• Contemplating how one’s gati leads to rebirth in different realms could be beneficial. This would connect the internal mental process to future lives.

This will help to understand the above anicca nature.

Supramundane Dukkha – Because of this anicca nature and laws of kamma, there is much suffering caused, especially in the Apayas (dukkha dukkha). Even without doing bad deeds, there is still death in every realm, and birth is caused by attaching to things via the paticca samuppada process.

Supramundane Anatta – Therefore, one is helpless in this rebirth process

The concept of distorted sañña can help to understand why we see things as Nicca Sukkha Atta.

[pathfinder]

I see, we need to look at the previously unheard teachings of the Buddha. 

I am abit confused with my own experience. I find that my attachment to sensual pleasures have decreased over time, eg craving food, watching shows. However, the main bulk of my contemplation is experiential – eg what I can see and realise. Some examples are

• Observing that the mind is stressed when desiring something (it doesnt take a Buddha to discover this, just some keen observation of the mind)
• Contemplating that pleasure is brought about when there is relief from the stressed mind, but the stressed mind comes first – the external world does not actually bring us pleasure but it is created from our wanting minds (this can be explained with many analogies as well and by experience, eg pudding does not taste good after 100 plates but it tastes good if you have been staring at it for a while)
• That things are not to our liking, they are created by causes, our expectation or liking is not a cause, we cannot mantain them to our liking (mundane anicca)
• We only experience nice feelings for a very short moment (like a bubble pop) and then we move on to look for the next one
• When I suffer, the main reason is because I am attached to something. Eg when I get scolded, I feel bad because I am attached to my ego and receiving praises – if not for these 2 I would not feel anything.
• Contemplating the amount of effort I take to do things, eg realising that I need to find ways to create time to watch shows, even chewing is effort, or constantly opening eyes to watch shows is tiring (mundane sankhara dukkha)
• Contemplating the effort required to mantain things, eg if I buy a nice shirt, then I would have to take care of it, wash it in special conditions (mundane sankhara dukkha)
• Contemplating the future suffering with unexpected change, eg if the shirt gets destroyed (mundane viparinama dukkha)
• Contemplating that the more I satisfy cravings, the stronger the cravings (paticca samuppada, but you just need a basic understanding of habits and psychology to get this as well)

These things are quite effective in reducing the craving at that moment, and also I have felt that my attachement to sensual pleasures have generally reduced.

Since these are “mundane” contemplations (they don’t involve kamma, rebirth, technically people can figure these out without a Buddha), does it mean that it is not towards Nibbana, and that my reduced kama raga is not towards Nibbana as well?

I need to clarify that at this point, I do believe in the concepts of rebirth, and how attaching to things contribute to rebirth (paticca samuppada), but they are not a bulk of my contemplation.

[pathfinder]

Lal: All those are subject to arising (uppada) and decay. Anyone (including puthujjanas) can see that. That is the “mundane anicca nature,” i.e., we cannot maintain anything in prime condition for long times, even though that is what anyone would like or desire (icca).

This is explained as the “mundane anicca nature“, so I presume that it would lead to mundane dukkha nature and mundane anatta nature. So

• we cannot maintain anything in prime condition for long times, even though that is what anyone would like or desire (icca). (anicca)
• Because of this, there is suffering (dukkha)
• Therefore, everything in this world is of no essence (anatta) – Yadaniccaṁ taṁ dukkhaṁ, yaṁ dukkhaṁ tadanattā

Does this mean that the above analysis I just described is mundane and cannot take us to Nibbāna, even if we can reduce and even stop Tanha from arising (Tanha Nirodho) using this analysis (2nd, 3rd Noble Truth)? 

[pathfinder]

I see, thank you🙏

[pathfinder]

Thank you for revising.

Post: A saṅkhata (anything prepared by the mind, which includes everything in the world) has the following three characteristics: uppāda (arising,) its existence (ṭhiti) before destruction, and vaya (cessation, i.e., it can be stopped from occurring in the future, not its destruction). 

Should it be ṭhitassa aññathattaṁ (subjected to unexpected change) instead? As written in point 7 of Vipallāsa (Diṭṭhi, Saññā, Citta) Affect Saṅkhāra

• Also, where can we categorise the suffering from “tāpa” or “heat in mind.”, or the vexatious feeling of craving – is it under sankhara dukkha?
• Also, does samphassa-jā-dukkha vedanā fall under dukkha dukkha? For example, hearing ourselves getting scolded

[pathfinder]

I see, thank you!

[pathfinder]

I think it is explained here, in the same post you linked:

6. Suppose one is “transferring merits” by sincerely saying, “May so and so receive merits from this good deed that I have done.” One could do Metta bhāvanā by saying, “May all beings be free from the suffering in the apāyā” or some version of it. In both cases, one is BROADCASTING one’s intention.

• However, just because one is doing such a “giving,” the intended recipient may not receive the benefits UNLESS the recipient has a matching mindset. It is just like the case of radio/TV, where the receiving device needs to be set to the “right frequency” to receive the signal.

As for the mechanism of how the beings can benefit from it, if i am not wrong, one way is that they can rejoice in listening to this transfer of merit, which can give them the causal eligibility for a better birth and understand the dhamma. Rejoicing in merits is also meritorious. Therefore, recalling past meritorious deeds you have done and dedicating them to other beings is also helpful. However, the recipient needs to have the right mindset. Lets say the recipient is a Preta and does not care about what you have just wished for, then the merit transfer will not be effective. 

I am not exactly sure for the mechanisms of those who are trapped in a body though, eg human/ animals, it seems a bit more complicated since they cannot directly listen if they are far away, but perhaps there is someway for the message to reach them via the nāma loka.

[pathfinder]

I see! Thank you for clarifying, and for the discussion 🙏

[pathfinder]

Is this related to internal and external āyatana? So during Paticca Samuppada, I would assume viññana paccaya internal and external nāmarupa, internal and external nāmarupa paccaya internal and external āyatana. External āyatana will (?) appear as kamma vipaka in the future. When the external and internal āyatana meet, that is samphasso. When salāyatana nirrodho for arahants, external āyatana is still present but internal āyatana is gone, so there is no samphasso. Likewise when an external āyatana of different nature from internal āyatana meet, there is no samphasso too (eg apple in contact with tongue craving chocalate = no samphasso)

[pathfinder]

Lal:

• “jāti dhamma” (those that arise via Paticca Samuppada) include “Partners and children, male and female bondservants, goats and sheep, chickens and pigs, elephants and cattle, and gold and money are all jāti dhamma.” See “Pāsarāsi Sutta (MN 26).”
• Note that the English translation in the above link is misleading/wrong: “Partners and children, male and female bondservants, goats and sheep, chickens and pigs, elephants and cattle, and gold and money are liable to be reborn.”

Is it correct to rephrase that all these rupa (Partners and children, male and female bondservants, goats and sheep, chickens and pigs, elephants and cattle, and gold and money) are dhamma (created by kammic energies) which has the characteristics of jati? And they are also dhamma which have the characteristics of jara, maranam.

[pathfinder]

There is also another meaning of Jāti in that post: 
8. When one gets deeper into Buddha Dhamma, one can see that everything in this world is “born” due to causes and effects, i.e., Paṭicca Samuppāda. For example, a tree is born out of a seed. A car is “born” in a factory. Paṭicca Samuppāda can describe all those.

Do you think the jāti, jāra, maranaṃ of things outside of us is applicable in the Noble Truths as well? Eg jāti, jāra, maranaṃ of a car, a tree etc. Eg the Jāti of a painting does not matter to someone who is blind, but it does for someone who likes/ dislikes paintings and when they see it. The Jāti of a Buddha brings joy to many beings. The Venerable in Amin’s video also gave an example – the death (maranaṃ) of Bin Laden brought americans joy, but suffering to the Talibans.

Pathfinder wrote: “Jati itself is not suffering, but our attachment to it causes suffering.”
Lal: That is not correct. Any and all types of jati embed suffering.

That makes sense, all Jāti embed suffering when we think of Uppatti Paṭicca Samuppāda jāti and Idappaccayātā Paṭicca Samuppāda jāti. It may be a bit different when we think about jāti, jāra, maranaṃ outside of us (with the example I gave about the painting and Bin Laden)

 

[pathfinder]

I only intended to share another way of interpreting. I apologise if I brought anyone confusion, but I want to reiterate that the end conclusion is the same. It is because it is not possible to find a world where we will never experience disliked jāti, disliked jāra, disliked maranan because of the anicca nature of this world, that we have to find a solution to this. And the cause of disliked jāti, disliked jāra, disliked maranan, is tanha (second truth). Without tanha, will we find things likeable and dislikeable in the first place?

Amin has also shared a sermon with another interpretation of “p” = attachment. So Jatipi dukkha means attachment to Jati is dukkha. It is also something to contemplate about. Jati itself is not suffering, but our attachment to it causes suffering. We too can come up with end conclusion that the cause of suffering is from attachment.

From this, I wanted to ask if Jati in the first noble truth refers to all 3 kinds of Jati described in Jāti – Different Types of Births nameley 1) birth of being, 2) brith during lifetime, 3) birth of everything else in the world. If I am not wrong, for the posts about first noble truth on this site, the “birth of being” is the main definition used, but I wonder if you would agree if the second and third meaning also applies.

 

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