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What I mean is that the sutta says that Venerable Arahant Sāriputta practiced jhānas for a fortnight. At the end of this fortnight, he reached Nirodha Samapatti. That means he became an arahant. However, in the Dīghanakhautta, he became an arahant by reflecting on the discourse of Lord Buddha. Sutta’s central statement is a contradiction because it says that he realized nirodha samapatti between the time he became sotāpanna and the time he became an arahant. The logical explanation is that he practiced jhānas and nirodha samapatti after becoming an arahant.
You are welcome, Sir !
Sir Lal : Where in MN 74 those statements appear?
- Click on the fourth blue asterisk In the Anupadasutta.
I noticed a contradiction. We agree that when one attains Nirodha samapatti, one automatically becomes an arahant, correct?
This is sutta central explaining : The fortnight between realizing stream-entry while still a student of Sañjaya (Kd 1:23.5.6) and arahantship while overhearing the Buddha teach Dīghanakha (MN 74:5.1).
- How can he become an arahant again if he has already realized nirodha samapatti? The explanation that makes the most sense to me is that he developed nirodha samapatti after becoming an arahant.
Sir Lal : “Nibbāna sukha” is NOT a feeling. It is the absence of suffering.
Me : This statement remind me this sutta !
At one time Venerable Sāriputta was staying near Rājagaha, in the Bamboo Grove, the squirrels’ feeding ground.
Ekaṁ samayaṁ āyasmā sāriputto rājagahe viharati veḷuvane kalandakanivāpe.
There he addressed the mendicants:
Tatra kho āyasmā sāriputto bhikkhū āmantesi:
“Reverends, extinguishment is bliss!
“sukhamidaṁ, āvuso, nibbānaṁ.
Extinguishment is bliss!”
Sukhamidaṁ, āvuso, nibbānan”ti.
When he said this, Venerable Udāyī said to him,
Evaṁ vutte, āyasmā udāyī āyasmantaṁ sāriputtaṁ etadavoca:
“But Reverend Sāriputta, what’s blissful about it, since nothing is felt?”
“kiṁ panettha, āvuso sāriputta, sukhaṁ yadettha natthi vedayitan”ti?
“The fact that nothing is felt is precisely what’s blissful about it.
“Etadeva khvettha, āvuso, sukhaṁ yadettha natthi vedayitaṁ.
- This is a very good sutta where Venerable Arahant Sāriputta further explains that the pleasures of Kāma loka, Rūpa loka and Arupa loka are sufferings.They are different from Nibbāna. The explanation given is that an arahant who attains nirodha samapatti is free from suffering. This is noteworthy because Venerable Arahant Sāriputta, who is a pannavimutta, discusses Nirodha Samapatti. He chose one day to experience all the jhānas and samapattis leading up to Nirodha.
- I would like to address a controversial point regarding the Pannavimuttas Arahants. It is often assumed that they are unable to develop jhānas, samapattis, and nirodha samapatti. I will present evidence that may contradict this prevailing belief.
- See the Anupadasutta
Furthermore, going totally beyond the dimension of nothingness, he entered and remained in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception.
Puna caparaṁ, bhikkhave, sāriputto sabbaso ākiñcaññāyatanaṁ samatikkamma nevasaññānāsaññāyatanaṁ upasampajja viharati.
And he emerged from that attainment with mindfulness.
So tāya samāpattiyā sato vuṭṭhahati.
Then he contemplated the phenomena of that attainment that had passed, ceased, and perished:
So tāya samāpattiyā sato vuṭṭhahitvā ye dhammā atītā niruddhā vipariṇatā te dhamme samanupassati:
‘So it seems that these phenomena, not having been, come to be; and having come to be, they flit away.’
‘evaṁ kirame dhammā ahutvā sambhonti, hutvā paṭiventī’ti.
Regarding those phenomena, he meditated without going near or going away, independent, untied, liberated, detached, his mind free of limits.
So tesu dhammesu anupāyo anapāyo anissito appaṭibaddho vippamutto visaṁyutto vimariyādīkatena cetasā viharati.
He understood: ‘There is an escape beyond.’
So ‘atthi uttari nissaraṇan’ti pajānāti.
Repeated practice of that confirmed this for him.
Tabbahulīkārā atthitvevassa hoti.
Furthermore, going totally beyond the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, he entered and remained in the cessation of perception and feeling. And, having seen with wisdom, his defilements came to an end.
Puna caparaṁ, bhikkhave, sāriputto sabbaso nevasaññānāsaññāyatanaṁ samatikkamma saññāvedayitanirodhaṁ upasampajja viharati. Paññāya cassa disvā āsavā parikkhīṇā honti.
- In the Dīghanakhautta, Venerable Arahant Sāriputta became an arahant by listening to a discourse from Lord Buddha without attaining any jhānas.
Now at that time Venerable Sāriputta was standing behind the Buddha fanning him.
Tena kho pana samayena āyasmā sāriputto bhagavato piṭṭhito ṭhito hoti bhagavantaṁ bījayamāno.
Then he thought,
Atha kho āyasmato sāriputtassa etadahosi:
“It seems the Buddha speaks of giving up and letting go all these things through direct knowledge.”
“tesaṁ tesaṁ kira no bhagavā dhammānaṁ abhiññā pahānamāha, tesaṁ tesaṁ kira no sugato dhammānaṁ abhiññā paṭinissaggamāhā”ti.
Reflecting like this, Venerable Sāriputta’s mind was freed from the defilements by not grasping.
Iti hidaṁ āyasmato sāriputtassa paṭisañcikkhato anupādāya āsavehi cittaṁ vimucci.
- In the Theragatha, he states that he attained arahantship by listening to a Dhamma discourse.
“The Blessed One, the Buddha, the seer
Aññassa bhagavā buddho,
was teaching Dhamma to another.
dhammaṁ desesi cakkhumā;
As he taught the Dhamma,
Dhamme desiyamānamhi,
I lent an ear to get the meaning.
sotamodhesimatthiko.
My listening wasn’t wasted:
Taṁ me amoghaṁ savanaṁ,
I’m freed, without defilements.”
vimuttomhi anāsavo.
“Not for knowledge of past lives,
Neva pubbenivāsāya,
nor even for clairvoyance;
napi dibbassa cakkhuno;
not for psychic powers, or reading the minds of others,
Cetopariyāya iddhiyā,
nor for knowing people’s passing away and being reborn;
cutiyā upapattiyā;
not for purifying the power of clairaudience,
Sotadhātuvisuddhiyā,
did I have any wish.”
- He also confirms that he does not desire to develop iddhi powers. However, arahants who attain Nirodha samapatti automatically possess these powers, and it is beyond their control (Anatta).
- Achieving Nirodha Samapatti is similar to learning how to run; once a person knows how to run, they automatically know how to walk. To reach Nirodha Samapatti, one must have perfected all the jhānas and arupavacaras samapattis. Additionally, to attain iddhis, one must have mastered all four jhānas to perfection.
- All the evidence supports the idea that pannavimutta arahants who wish to develop jhanas, arupavacara samapatti, iddhis, and Nirodha samapatti can do so through focused concentration. It is important to remember that concentration and the removal of the five obstacles are essential for achieving jhānas and arupavacara samapattis. No being is more focused than an arahant, who has not only removed the five obstacles but has completely eradicated them. Most pannavimutta arahants simply choose not to pursue the development of these attainements and focus on the pure citta. Venerable Arahant Sāriputta did develop them to analyze them in detail and understand their causes. It is no surprise that Lord Buddha imparted the Abhidhamma to him.
Thank you for this proof, Sir🙏🏿 I wonder why the majority of buddhist doesn’t want to accept this despite the proof.
Hi Christian can you contact me on my email [email protected] ?? I have some questions for you. :)
Sir Lal said: I have not investigated such cases in the suttas. If you come across translations with the above meanings, we can look at them.
Yes, I will try to find this !
Thank you for this explanation Sir🙏🏿. The vast majority of Buddhist think that refers to the others realms like the devas world. They don’t want to accept this concept.
You know the explanations of Yash came from the Jethavaranama monastery. This website teaches the same thing as the monastery. However, the monastery organizes online meetings with people. If you are interested you can talk with the monks or lay female anagarikas. Some even came from India. They will help you according to your personal situation on the path. You can contact me on my Email [email protected] if you are interested. I will not put the personal number of Mr Harsha on the website since that can make complication.
I like Sir Lal’s answer. Sri Lankan and Asian society, in general, is very different from the West. People often forget to put themselves in the context of the times and society. It is certain that from a Western point of view having servants is intolerable. The answer is that Western society practiced savage and primitive slavery. People were castrated and beaten with whips. Slaves were not allowed to educate themselves. In the time of Lord Buddha servants had much greater freedom and could go and listen to sermons on the Dhamma.
I call servants because the masters did not have the right of life or death over them. Unlike in the United States in the 19th century where killing your slave was normal. It was even immoral in the time of Lord Buddha to beat one’s servant. Of course, practices like human sacrifice and forced marriages are immoral and destructive practices! Hunting and fishing are immoral practices and yet it is practiced and encouraged today. It is impossible to find stable and lasting happiness in conditioned phenomena. As long as we do not become ariyas, we will be primitive. A puthujunas can be the most modern man in the world and be reborn as an animal and much worse. This is the true primitive spirit. An ariya can dress in bark skin (Think of Venerable Arahant Bahiya) and achieve the arahant stage.
This suttas shows that beating his servants is a bad things in the society of Lord Buddha.
What is it, ma’am?’
‘Kiṁ, ayye’ti?
‘You’re getting up even later in the day—what’s up with you, wench?’
‘Kiṁ, je, divā uṭṭhāsī’ti?
‘Nothing, ma’am.’
‘Na khvayye, kiñcī’ti.
‘Oh, so nothing’s up, you naughty maid, but you get up even later in the day!’ Angry and upset, she grabbed a door-pin and hit Kāḷī on the head, cracking it open.
‘No vata re kiñci, pāpi dāsi, divā uṭṭhāsī’ti kupitā anattamanā aggaḷasūciṁ gahetvā sīse pahāraṁ adāsi, sīsaṁ vobhindi.
Then Kāḷī, with blood pouring from her cracked skull, denounced her mistress to the neighbors,
Atha kho, bhikkhave, kāḷī dāsī bhinnena sīsena lohitena galantena paṭivissakānaṁ ujjhāpesi:
‘See, ladies, what the sweet one did!
‘passathayye, soratāya kammaṁ;
See what the even-tempered one did! See what the calm one did!
passathayye, nivātāya kammaṁ, passathayye, upasantāya kammaṁ.
How on earth can she grab a door-pin and hit her only maid on the head, cracking it open, just for getting up late?’ Arthaśāstra 3.13.9 says that inflicting punishment (daṇḍapreṣaṇam; cf. Pali daṇḍāpesuṁ at Bi Ss 1:1.38) on a slave is a crime for which a master incurs a fine equivalent to the cost of the slave.
Kathañhi nāma ekadāsikāya divā uṭṭhāsīti kupitā anattamanā aggaḷasūciṁ gahetvā sīse pahāraṁ dassati, sīsaṁ vobhindissatī’ti.
Then after some time the housewife Vedehikā got this bad reputation:
Atha kho, bhikkhave, vedehikāya gahapatāniyā aparena samayena evaṁ pāpako kittisaddo abbhuggacchi:
‘The housewife Vedehikā is fierce, ill-tempered, and not calm at all.’ No blame is given to Kāḷī for her deliberate provocation.
‘caṇḍī vedehikā gahapatānī, anivātā vedehikā gahapatānī, anupasantā vedehikā gahapatānī’ti.
See this also :
- Here is an excellent short sermon of Venerable Waharaka Thero.
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I think it’s ignorant to think that. You say it comes from the Stone Age what defines the Stone Age?? You are putting on Western glasses to judge entire cultures, this is not correct. Polygamy in some societies is a sign of protection. Sometimes a widowed woman chooses to become involved in a polygamous couple to benefit from social and financial security. I will take the example of African societies. The vast majority of men who practice polygamy are wealthy landowners who have the means to provide for several wives and children. Polygamy is a sign of wealth, strength and independence. My grandfather was a polygamist because he had several agricultural properties and could take care of many people. However, at the end of his life, he told his daughter, who is my mother, not to get involved in a polygamous couple and that it is better to have a normal couple. However, saying that people who practice polygamy are immoral is not correct. Are you saying that King Bimbisāra, who is a sotāpanna, and the Bodhisatta were immoral and savage people?? You say this is contrary to a “civilized” society. Tell me what does a civilized society bring that is sustainable and stable in terms of Dhamma?? Does a civilized society produce more ariyas or, on the contrary,, encourage people to get stuck in Kāma loka and end up in apayas?
The society of Lord Buddha will be seen as primitive by materialists today, but, in terms of spiritual levels, it is heaven and earth. The real primitives are found in the apayas. Yet, people these days act like apaya beings to enjoy sensual pleasures. If a primitive society means being without worldly laws and technologies but, being surrounded by ariyas, I will give anything to live there.
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What Yash experience is this description :
Obhasa (illumination)
Obhasa is the first defilement of insight.
The meditator may be aware of the following manifestations of light:
He may see a light similar to a firefly, a torch or a car headlamp.
The room may be lit up, enabling the meditator to see his or her own body.
He or she may be aware of light that seems to pass through the wall.
There may be a light enabling one to see various places before one’s eyes.
There may be a bright light as though a door had opened. Some meditators lift up their hands as if to shut it; others open their eyes to see what caused the light.
A vision of brightly colored flowers surrounded by light may be seen.
Miles and miles of sea may be seen.
Rays of light seem to emit from the meditator’s heart and body.
Hallucinations such as seeing an elephant may occur.
Piti (Joy or rapture)
Piti is the second defilement of insight. There are five kinds of piti.
1. Khuddaka piti (minor rapture)
This state is characterized by the following:
The meditator may be aware of a white color.
There may be a feeling of coolness or dizziness and the hairs of the body may stand on end.
The meditator may cry or feel terrified.
2. Khanika piti (momentary rapture)
Characteristics of this piti include:
Seeing flashes of light.
Seeing sparks.
Nervous twitching.
A feeling of stiffness all over the body.
A feeling as if ants were crawling on the body.
A feeling of heat all over the body.
Shivering.
Seeing red colors.
The hair on the body rising slightly.
Itchiness as if ants were crawling on one’s face and body.
See also the Sixteen Types of Insight Knowledge (Vipassana Nana) in Theravada Buddhism
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Kāma ragā is indeed a powerful attachment. Even our Bodhisattva struggled with it, as he ended up sleeping with a king’s wife. What is particularly concerning is that he was a yogi who had mastered all the jhanas and possessed iddhis powers, yet he lost his jhanas upon seeing the queen’s body. Despite this, he continued to sleep with her on several occasions. This illustrates that an anagami is the “conqueror” of the Kāma loka. I look forward to the day when I can become an anagami and an arahant, free from this entrapping burden.
See Haritta jataka
“Friend Harita,” etc.—This story the Master dwelling at Jetavana told concerning a discontented Brother. Now this Brother after seeing a smartly attired woman grew discontented and allowed his hair and nails to grow long, and wished to return to the world. And when he was brought against his will by his teachers and preceptors to the Master, and was asked by him, if it were true that he was a backslider, and if so why, he said, “Yes, your Reverence, it is owing to the power of sinful passion, after seeing a beautiful woman.” The Master said, “Sin, Brother, is destructive of virtue, and insipid withal, and causes a man to be re-born in hell; and why should not this sin prove your destruction? For the hurricane that smites Mount Sineru is not ashamed to carry off a withered leaf. But owing to this sin men who walk according to knowledge and wisdom, and have acquired the five Faculties and the eight Attainments, though they were great and holy men, being unable to fix their thoughts, fell away from mystic meditation.” And then he told a story of the past.
Once upon a time when Brahmadatta was reigning in Benares, the Bodhisatta was born in a certain village in a brahmin family worth eighty crores, and from his golden complexion they called him Harittacakumara (Young Goldskin). When he was grown up, and had been educated at Takkasila, he set up as a householder, and on the death of his father and mother he made inspection of his treasures and thought, “The treasure only continues to exist, but they who produced it cease to exist: I too must be reduced to atoms by means of death,” and alarmed by the fear of death he gave great gifts, and entering the Himalaya country he adopted the religious life, and on the seventh day he entered upon the iddhis and jhanas. There for a long time he lived on wild fruit and roots, and going down from the mountain to procure salt and vinegar, he in due course reached Benares. There he abode in the royal park, and on the next day in going his round for alms he came to the door of the king’s palace. The king was so glad to see him that he sent for him and made him sit on the royal couch beneath the shade of the white umbrella, and fed him on all manner of dainties, and on his returning thanks the king being exceedingly pleased asked him, “Reverend Sir, where are you going?” “Great king, we are looking out for a dwelling-place for the rainy season.” “Very well, Reverend Sir,” he said, and after the early meal he went with him to the park, and had quarters both for the day and night built for him, and, assigning the keeper of the park as his attendant, he saluted him and departed. The Great Being from that time fed continually in the palace, and lived there twelve years.
Now one day the king went to quell a disturbance on the frontier, and committed the Bodhisatta to the care of the queen, saying, “Do not neglect our “Field of Merit.” Thenceforth she ministered to the Great Being with her own hands.
Now one day she had prepared his food, and as he delayed his coming, she bathed in scented water, and put on a soft tunic of fine cloth, and opening the lattice lay down on a small couch, and let the wind play upon her body. And the Bodhisatta later on in the day, dressed in a goodly inner and outer robe, took his alms-bowl and walking through the air came to the window. As the queen rose up in haste, at the rustling sound of his bark garments, her robe of fine cloth fell from off her. An extraordinary object struck upon the eye of the Great Being. Then the sinful feeling, that had been dwelling for countless aeons in his heart, rose up like a snake lying in a box, and put to flight his jhana meditation. Being unable to fix his thoughts he went and seized the queen by the hand, and forthwith they drew a curtain round them. After misconducting himself with her, he partook of some food and returned to the park. And every day thenceforth he acted after the same manner.
His misconduct was blazed abroad throughout the whole city. The king’s ministers sent a letter to him, saying, “Harita, the ascetic, is acting thus and thus.”
The king thought, “They say this, being eager to separate us,” and disbelieved it. When he had pacified the border country he returned to Benares, and after marching in solemn procession round the city, he went to the queen and asked her, “Is it true that the holy ascetic Harita mis-conducted himself with you?” “It is true, my lord.” He disbelieved her also, and thought, “I will ask the man himself,” and going to the park he saluted him, and sitting respectfully on one side he spoke the first stanza in the form of a question:
Friend Harita, I oft have heard it said
A sinful life is by your Reverence led;
I trust there is no truth in this report,
And thou art innocent in deed and thought?
He thought, “If I were to say I am not indulging in sin, this king would believe me, but in this world there is no sure ground like speaking the truth. They who forsake the truth, though they sit in the sacred enclosure of the Bo tree, cannot attain to Buddhahood. I must needs just speak the truth.” In certain cases a Bodhisatta may destroy life, take what is not given him, commit adultery, drink strong drink, but he may not tell a lie, attended by deception that violates the reality of things. Therefore speaking the truth only he uttered the second stanza:
In evil ways, great king, as thou hast heard,
Caught by the world’s delusive arts, I erred.
Hearing this the king spoke the third stanza:
Vain is man’s deepest wisdom to dispel
The passions that within his bosom swell.
Then Harita pointed out to him the power of sin and spoke the fourth stanza:
There are four passions in this world, great king,
That in their power are over-mastering:
Lust, hate, excess and ignorance their name;
Knowledge can here no certain footing claim.
The king on hearing this spoke the fifth stanza:
Endowed with holiness and intellect
The saintly Harita wins our respect.
Then Harita spoke the sixth stanza:
Ill thoughts, with pleasant vices if combined,
Corrupt the sage to saintliness inclined.
Then the king, encouraging him to throw off sinful passion, spoke the seventh stanza:
The beauty that from purest hearts doth shine
Is marred by lust, born of this mortal frame;
Away with it, and blessings shall be thine,
And multitudes thy wisdom shall proclaim.
Then the Bodhisatta recovered the power to concentrate his thoughts, and observing the misery of sinful desire, he spoke the eighth stanza:
Since blinding passions yield a bitter fruit,
All growth of lust I cut down to the root.
So saying he asked the king’s leave, and having gained his consent he entered his hermit hut, and fixing his gaze on his kasina object he entered into a jhana, and came forth from the hut, and sitting cross-legged in the air he taught the king the true doctrine and said, “Great king, I have incurred censure in the midst of the people by reason of my dwelling in a place where I ought not. But be thou vigilant. Now will I return to some forest free from all taint of womankind.” And amidst the tears and lamentations of the king he returned to the Himalaya, and without falling away from jhana meditation he entered the Brahma world.
The Master knowing the whole story said:
Thus Harita for truth right stoutly did contend,
And lust forsaking did to Brahma world ascend.
And having in his Perfect Wisdom spoken this stanza, he declared the Truths and identified the Birth—At the conclusion of the Truths the worldly-minded Brother attained to arahanthood—“At that time the king was Ananda Harita was myself.”
- I have modified some words to replace them with jhanas, iddhis, kasina, arahanthood etc.
