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Yash: Would a sotappana commit adultery if the society is okay with it?
A sotāpanna will never willingly do something that will cause fear and hate to other beings. Even if his society is immoral in certain things. He or she instinctively knows what to do or what not to do. They have always a moral compass. If they do, evil actions, it is because of extreme pressure and without pleasure. They can’t never take pleasure in wrongdoings. Venerable Waharaka Thero explains what the sotāpanna eliminated in this 4-minute video. Please watch until the end.
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Engaging in sensual activities can be damaging in the long run because that maintains us in the Samsāra. This is why we must strive to become arahant. King Bimbisāra is assured of attaining Nibbāna in seven bhava, even though he had several wives. Some yogis live in seclusion and attain jhānas without becoming sotāpanna. While they may go to the Brahma worlds after death, they are not free from the four apayas and, consequently, from Kāma raga. King Bimbisāra will inevitably be free from Kāma raga after his seven bhavas.
Even pursuing degrees through education can be linked to Kāma raga. Many crave recognition and the sensory benefits that come with it. In India, there are extremely tough exams to enter the civil service. Why do people aspire to public service? Is it really for survival, or to gain advantages? Some individuals manage to survive with minimal education, such as Dalits (those outside of the caste system). Why not follow that path? After all, we just need the basics: shelter, food, medicine, and clothing. There seems to be no need for extensive studies to obtain these necessities, right? Most people desire more than just the minimum, often driven by pride. Isn’t this a form of Kāma raga?
From the perspective of Buddha Dhamma, there is nothing immoral with having a doctorate or living comfortably with considerable wealth. However, according to Anagamis and Arahants, it can still be seen as greed (Therefore dommageable for our liberation), even if no harm is caused in the process. This is why they refrain from such pursuits. Monks don’t need to own any money; why do you have a bank account? Bhikkhus demonstrate that we can live without a bank account, even if society suggests otherwise.
The same applies to people who are single, married, or have multiple spouses. Everyone has their own tendencies. King Bimbisāra and Venerable Ananda were both sotāpanna. They deserve our admiration because they have eliminated 99% of the suffering associated with Samsāra. One continued to enjoy his relationships. Does that make him immoral? As long as they don’t cause mental and physical suffering to others, there is nothing wrong. A sotāpanna will never willingly engage in this kind of action. The key is to become sotāpanna to ensure that one can achieve anagami or arahant status and, thus, be free from sensual pleasures.
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King Bimbisāra was a sotāpanna and he had several wives.
Bimbisāra’s chief queen was Kosaladevī (q.v.), daughter of Mahākosala and sister of Pasenadi. On the day of her marriage, she received, as part of her dowry, a village in Kāsi, for her bath money. Her son was Ajātasattu (also J.iii.121). Bimbisāra had other wives as well; Khemā, who, at first, would not even visit the Buddha till enticed by Bimbisāra’s descriptions of the beauties of Veluvana; and the courtesan Padumavatī, who was brought from Ujjenī, with the help of a Yakkha, so that Rājagaha might not lack a Nagarasobhinī. Both these later became nuns. Padumavatī’s son was Abhaya. Bimbisāra had another son by Ambapālī, known as Vimala Kondañña, and two others, by different wives, known as Sīlava and Jayasena. A daughter, Cundi, is also mentioned.
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The anagami who had four wives was Ugga
I had four teenage wives.
Tassa mayhaṁ, bhante, catasso komāriyo pajāpatiyo ahesuṁ.
And I went to them and said:
Atha khvāhaṁ, bhante, yena tā pajāpatiyo tenupasaṅkamiṁ; upasaṅkamitvā tā pajāpatiyo etadavacaṁ:
‘Sisters, I’ve undertaken the five training rules with celibacy as fifth.
‘mayā kho, bhaginiyo, brahmacariyapañcamāni sikkhāpadāni samādinnāni.
If you wish, you may stay here, enjoy my wealth, and do good deeds. Or you can return to your own families.
Yā icchati sā idheva bhoge ca bhuñjatu puññāni ca karotu, sakāni vā ñātikulāni gacchatu.
Or would you prefer if I gave you to another man?’
Hoti vā pana purisādhippāyo, kassa vo dammī’ti?
When I said this, my eldest wife said to me:
Evaṁ vutte, sā, bhante, jeṭṭhā pajāpati maṁ etadavoca:
‘Master, please give me to such-and-such a man.’
‘itthannāmassa maṁ, ayyaputta, purisassa dehī’ti.
Then I summoned that man. Taking my wife with my left hand and a ceremonial vase with my right, I presented her to that man with the pouring of water.
Atha kho ahaṁ, bhante, taṁ purisaṁ pakkosāpetvā vāmena hatthena pajāpatiṁ gahetvā dakkhiṇena hatthena bhiṅgāraṁ gahetvā tassa purisassa oṇojesiṁ.
But I can’t recall getting upset while giving away my teenage wife.
Komāriṁ kho panāhaṁ, bhante, dāraṁ pariccajanto nābhijānāmi cittassa aññathattaṁ.
This is the third incredible and amazing quality found in me.
Ayaṁ kho me, bhante, tatiyo acchariyo abbhuto dhammo saṁvijjati.
Cat, if I understand your situation correctly, you want to live as far away from the causes of greed and sensuality as possible. I understand, but as Sir Lal and Yash explained, there is nothing wrong with earning money and cooking for yourself. Many great lay disciples of Lord Buddha were millionaires (today they would have billions!). Of course, they had more than the minimum. However, they managed to attain the sotāpanna stage and other stages while retaining their fortunes. Lord Buddha’s father, King Suddhodana became an anagami and continued to fulfill his duty as a monarch.
So there is nothing wrong with money and food. What is bad is acting with ignorance (believing that food will give us happiness), greed (wanting to have all the food for yourself), and anger (eating to alleviate sadness). The same thing applies to money and the other 3 necessities (clothes, houses and medicine).
You seem inclined towards a life of total renunciation. I suggest only one thing to you, my friend, go and live in the company of the Noble Maha Sangha of Jethavaranama monastery. You have two choices there: either you train for two years to become a monk, or you stay as an anagarika with 10 precepts. The monastery will help you with the visa etc. Don’t wait, my friend; follow your desire to live the Dhamma fully. If you are interested, I can put you in contact with Sir Harsha, who is the layman responsible for organizing meetings with Bhikkhus. Ask advice from the venerable bhikkhus of the monastery and make a decision on what you want to do my friend.
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Hello Cat! In your first response, you mentioned the importance of the noble Maha Sangha. If you would like to speak with bhikkhus, the monks at Jethavaranama Monastery organize online personal meetings with laypeople. They can provide you with advice tailored to your situation on your path.
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Yes, Bhante also said that it’s almost impossible for an average human to truly know what it feels like to have no desire for anything. The majority of humans are frightened by the idea of losing their desires. To have a better idea, one must be at least a sotāpanna!
- To make sure I understand. Suppose a restaurant distributes rotten food to 5 people. The first person is an average human, the second is a sotāpanna, the third is a sakadāgāmi, the fourth is an anagami and the last is an arahant. The average human will generate disgust and anger(Dosa). He may even want to attack the restaurant owner physically or verbally. He may even try to close the restaurant by suing them. The Sotāpanna and the Sakadāgāmi will be disgusted and may generate mental aversion (Patigha), but they will not want to attack the restaurant owner or the restaurant. The anagami and the arahant will just tell themselves that it is not appropriate to eat rotten food because it is disgusting for the human body, but they will not generate the slightest trace of aversion(Patigha) and will always be in the 4 Brahmas viharas (Metta, Karuna, Mudita and Uppekha).
“It is hard to say. We can only guess. It is possible that memories of trauma may not bother them. “
Yes, he said they will remember they have traumas, but they will never suffer because of that again.
“Even Arahants experience “manāpa/amanāpa” or a sense of “like/dislike” generated by that “distorted saññā.”
Yes, but what he means is that, for example, if an arahant loses his tongue or sense of taste, he or she will never feel sad or confused about it. They will know something is missing or wrong with their body, but they will not be sad about it.
Sir, Bhante mentioned that when a person becomes an arahant, even their traumas disappear. For instance, someone who is claustrophobic , fears animals, or has experienced personal traumas such as rape and intimidation—along with paranoia and various fears—will no longer experience these issues at the arahant stage. Do you agree with this perspective? I ask because there are cases where some attitudes seem to persist even among arahants. For example, there was an arahant who spoke inappropriately to others; I can’t recall his name or story. If I am not mistaken only the Lord Buddha is completely devoid of all idiosyncrasies. Personally, I am convinced that all fears disappear once one reaches the arahant stage, but I ask to know if it is coherent with the suttas.
Bhante also said that taste is a useless sense. Is that true for science? He said we can live correctly without taste. If we suffer from the loss of taste, it is because of our attachment to taste. We believe there is a real taste but the taste is a mirage.
There is an excellent sermon where Venerable Bhante Amadassana Thero talks about exactly the same thing as Sir Lal: mind-made world. He explains to the audience that the world is entirely mental. He also explains that an arahant is not a robot and that he or she can perceive rotten food but he or she will not generate aversion to that food. If an average human was offered to eat food he or she would be disgusted and will generate aversion.
Start Listen at 8:30 min until 30 min.
There is one thing I noticed. The majority of the explanations of the articles that Sir Lal publishes on the site can be found in the sermons of the Jethavaranama monastery (in a less precise way). The only difference is accuracy and audience type. Bhante speaks to an audience composed of non-Buddhists (Christians, Muslims, Hindus, atheists) and beginner Buddhists. He will try to simplify the explanations and even change the names of terms so that the audience understands better. He tries not to go too far. For example, sometimes he will call Kamma Vipāka God. In many of his sermons, he said God. This is to make Christians and Muslims more comfortable and more attentive to the sermons. People understand teachings better when they are spoken about concepts they understand. A good teacher must take into account the level of his audience. What is certain is that with each sermon, he goes deeper and deeper. A month ago he started talking about Hadaya vatthu. He simply called it the base of the spirit and explained that this is where we must purify, not outside. Sir Lal goes further in his articles with examples of the suttas and uses the names of the terms. It is more suitable for Buddhists who have a good basic understanding and want to understand further.
This is why a SammāsamBuddha is the ultimate teacher because he knows perfectly how to teach a person according to his mental disposition. Even a Venerable Arahant is not capable of doing this always. Think about the story of Venerable Arahant Culapanthaka. His elder brother, who is the Venerable Arahant Mahapanthaka, told him to leave the monastic life because he did not understand the Dhamma. Venerable Mahapanthaka is an arahant so he always acts for the good of a being. He thought it was for his little brother’s sake that he told him to leave the Sangha. However, Venerable Culapanthaka became an arahant with Iddhi powers after following very simple instructions from Lord Buddha.
- Some of us have difficulty teaching the Dhamma to our loved ones because they reject or do not understand. We must be careful not to conclude that they are stupid for not striving for the Dhamma. Maybe if they have the right person to message them, they can become ariyas on the spot. Often paramis will mature at another time in their lives. An example is the mother of Venerable Sariputta who became a sotāpanna at the age of 100. All her life she rejected the Buddha Dhamma and cried for having understood the Dhamma at the time of her son’s death.
I also wanted to add that what we give is what we receive as long as we have the conditions to receive it.
- Suppose a serial killer who has not committed anantariya kamma becomes a Sakadāgāmi deva or anagami Brahma, he will no longer receive bad Vipāka. He will no longer be able to be killed, hurt, get sick, abuse, steal, deceive etc. They do not have the condition to receive the effects of the causes which they have sown in the past which is the possession of a dense body.
- An arahant with a dense body has eliminated the possibility of creating a new Kamma (kriya kamma), but he will continue to experience the causes (unhealthy actions committed in the cycle of rebirths) and effects (injuries, pain, murder, illnesses, etc.) because of his dense body(condition). Angulimala received beatings from the families of his victims even when he became an arahant. If Angulimala had become an anagami Brahma or a sakadāgāmi deva, none of this would have happened to him. A Brahma has a body too subtle to suffer. If women who commit abortion at least succeed in becoming Ariya devas and Brahmas, they can escape the bad consequences of their actions. However, it is very rare for one to become Ariya after performing extreme acts like this.
The case of Venerable Angulimala was exceptional, if Lord Buddha had not come, he would have been executed by the king’s soldiers and would have taken rebirth in a niraya. Those who become ariya after performing this kind of action are those who have powerful paramis. Angulimala was a yogi in a past life, so he probably developed jhanas. See the Jayaddisa Jataka.
See also the Video of the Wat San fran Monastery : Jayaddisa jataka.
Thank you, Sir. I tried to stay in this thread, but it was closed. This is why I sent the Tambadhatika story elsewhere in the forum.
Many non-Buddhists hold a deep respect for Lord Buddha and believe that the teachings of Buddhism (Buddha Dhamma) can lead to genuine happiness. They may only be missing certain paramis or Kusalas to fully embark on this path. A notable example of this is Sadguru Sri Madusudan(a Hindu devotee), who visited the Jethavaranama monastery recently.
See Visit of Sadguru Sri Madhusudan Sai to our monastery
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