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Thank you for the response Sir. If i understand well the signless immersion of the hearth refers to the arupavacara samapatti states.
I found the sutta of venerable Bhikkhu Citta called Hatthirohaputta. The bhikkhu sotapanna who ordained 6 time before he became arahant. Some versions are little bit different.
Here is the link to his story: “Citta called Hatthirohaputta (Hatthisāriputta)“
The sutta: “With Hatthisāriputta (AN 6.60)“
This sutta is very useful to understand how even someone who has the anariya jhanas can still have kama ragā. Arahant Mahākoṭṭhita explains it clearly in this story. Bhikkhu Citta was a Sotapanna and he possessed the anariyas Jhanas. Arahant Mahākoṭṭhita said he would eventually disrobe. (In this story, it is not explicitly said that venerable citta was a Sotāpanna) In another version, it was stated that’s why I posted two links.
I also have a question Sir Lal what is the signless immersion of the heart??
Thank you for the reference Sir. Yes is a sad situation. I even talk about your site and venerable Waharaka Thero with a monk and he told me do not follow him gandhabba is a wrong view. I didn’t said anything i really respect this monk but is sad. They don’t want to try. My teacher agree with many concept of pure dhamma even if he don’t agree with certain the most he agree. He reading your site sir. He told me is really shameful the Theravada don’t want to include the gandhabba concept nowdays.
“Nāvā Sutta: Discourse on the Ship“
“Suppose, monks a carpenter, or a carpenter’s apprentice has an axe and sees the marks of his fingers or the thumb on its handle. But, he will not know that so much of the handle had worn today, so much had worn yesterday, or so much had worn on the day before yesterday. But, he will still know from what is worn away that it has worn away.”
“In the same way, monks, when a monk engages himself in the development of the mind, he does not know, so much of the fermentations had worn today, so much had worn yesterday, or so much had worn on the day before yesterday. But, he will still know from what is worn away that they have worn away.”
“Satta Jatilā Sutta: Discourse on Seven Matted-hair Ascetics (Jatilā)“
In this sutta, the Lord Buddha warns about the impostors. Some people claim they are arahants, but they are not. That reminds me a lot of fake Bhikkhus today. The Buddha said we must associate with someone for a long time and observe his behavior before trusting him.
“Great king, as a layman enjoying worldly sense pleasures, living in a home with wives and children, enjoying the use of sandalwood, decorating the body with flowers, scents, and perfumes, and using gold and money, it is difficult for you to know who are Arahants and who are practicing the path to becoming Arahants.”
Thank you for the reference Sir🙏🏿.
For the fourth point i want to complete. At the beginning of the sasana the Lord Buddha didn’t makes rules. The first monks was already ariya they didn’t need somes rules they already knows what is wholesome and unwholesome. Lord buddha added gradually the rules at varied occasion and when puthujunas with varied behaviors joined the sangha.
Yes. A story came to my mind. I was reading this story a few years ago. I forgot the name of this sutta. If someone can post the reference, that would be great. A great deva was enjoying sensual pleasure with several hundred female devas. The female devas were in a tree picking flowers. He was under the tree, and when he looked up the tree, it was empty. It’s like he never had anyone. He was really confused. He couldn’t find them anywhere. He went to the Buddha, who told him they were all in the apayas. Their lifespan was over. Then, after Buddha gave him a discourse, this deva became a Sotapanna.
Thank you Sir for this remind. But if i understand well we cannot directly pass to the Brahma realm to the niraya ?? For example a person cultivate all the jhana and takes rebirth in a brahma world he will not go directly to the apaya right? He will reborn as a deva or a human before he do the apayagami?
I was reading about the princesse who cultivate the Jhana. After she died as a brahma she was reborn as the daughter of a millionnaire. During this life she commit the apayagami actions. Many lifes later after the parinibbãna of the Lord buddha she becames arahant.
I forgot this important point sir is really hard to cultivate the Jhanas and stays away from the kama ragā. Thank you for the remind sir🙏🏿. I understand well the main point is to encourage and respect those who take us away from akusala.
“Friend (mitta) in Theravada Buddhism“
Having a good friend can lead someone to the Sotapanna stage. This friend needs to have a great understanding of the Dhamma. Our great friend is the Lord Buddha himself. He left us a generation of Ariya Sangha for our liberation. In modern times, anyone who teaches the correct Dhamma is a good friend. Many people on this forum and the founder, sir Lal are examples. They do their best to preserve the Dhamma.
Thank you for the clarification, Sir. I didn’t know this sutta. I see how the bad translations can lead to confusion. For example, I used to think if I became a Sotapanna, I would never break my precepts. Now it is totally clear it is not the truth. I am really glad to learn from Pure Dhamma thank you very much for your efforts, Sir much merit for you🙏🏿🙏🏿🙏🏿
Sorry, Sir what I am going to say is not relevant to the present discussion. I read the sutta entirely Bahudhātuka sutta (MN 115). Something else captured my attention. The sutta said Sakka Mara and Brahma can only be men. I agree on Sakka and Mara, since they belong to the kamā loka. But Brahmas are in the rūpa loka and in the rūpa loka there is no gender distinction. A Brahma is asexual. A woman can also attain all the Jhanas and abhinnas and be reborn as Brahma.
Is that another bad interpretation?
“Pancha Verabhaya Sutta: Discourse on five types of Hate and Fear“
Householder, when a noble disciple has quelled five types of hate and fear, and is endowed with the four factors of a Stream Enterer, and has clearly seen and thoroughly penetrated the noble way with wisdom, if he wishes, he may declare of himself: ‘I have finished with further rebirth in hell, the realm of animals, the realm of hungry ghosts, finished with the plane of misery, the bad destination, the suffering state. I am a Stream Winner, no longer bound for the underworld, sure of reaching enlightenment as my destination’.”
What are the five types of hate and fear that he has quelled?”
Householder, one who kills any living beings generates hate and fear in this life, and generates hate and fear in the next life too, and experiences pain and sadness. But for one who abstains from killing any living beings, that hate and fear are quelled.”
“Householder, one who steals generates hate and fear in this life, and generates hate and fear in the next life too, and experiences pain and sadness. But for one who abstains from stealing, that hate and fear are quelled.”
“Householder, one who engages in sexual misconduct generates hate and fear in this life, and generates hate and fear in the next life too, and experiences pain and sadness. But for one who abstains from engaging in sexual misconduct, that hate and fear are quelled.”
“Householder, one who tells lies generates hate and fear in this life, and generates hate and fear in the next life too, and experiences pain and sadness. But for one who abstains from telling lies, that hate and fear are quelled.”
“Householder, one who indulges in strong drinks, distilled drinks, and fermented drinks that lead to heedlessness, generates hate and fear in this life, and generates hate and fear in the next life too, and experiences pain and sadness. But for one who abstains from indulging in strong drinks, distilled drinks, and fermented drinks that lead to heedlessness, that hate and fear are quelled.”
“These are the five types of hate and fear that he has quelled.”
4 qualities of an sotāpanna
1.Unshakable confidence with wisdom (aveccappasāda) in the Awakened One (Buddha).
2.Unshakable confidence with wisdom (aveccappasāda) in the Buddha’s teaching (Dhamma).
3.Unshakable confidence with wisdom (aveccappasāda) in the Buddhist Monastics (Sangha).
4.Unbroken and perfect morality that is pleasing to the Noble ones (Ariya kanta sīla). (4)
I suspect a misinterpretation in traductions of this sutta. Maybe Sir Lal can read and clear this if he had the time.
