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The oldest scriptures of Hinduism, originally passed down orally but then written in Vedic Sanskrit between 1500 and 500 BCE.
Sir Lal, scripture existed long before the time of Lord Buddha. It is incorrect to say that Lord Buddha was not aware. The Rig Vedas, which are the sacred texts of Hinduism, were written more than a millennium before the birth of Bodhisatta. Brahmāyu read these texts. He did not know the real meaning of these texts because he had no ariyas to teach him. Let us not forget that he was 120 years old when he met Lord Buddha. For 120 years, despite his knowledge, he was not even close to being a sotāpanna. I think that in his infinite knowledge, Lord Buddha knows the scripture. Lord Buddha did not say to write down the texts simply because it was useless without Ariyas to teach. Lord Buddha’s age is the golden age of ariyas no need to write. We need to listen with our ears to grasp the Dhamma. If no ariya is there to teach the texts are completely useless. Let us not forget that the ability to realize Nibbāna will disappear with the death of the last Jati Sotāpanna. The texts and websites will be there but, no one will reach Nibbāna because there is no ariya to teach. I am sure that by that time, humanity will be very technologically advanced, but even if we take videos of the ariyas, it will be impossible to reach Nibbāna. We need a living ariya to teach us.
This is the point that Christian and I are defending. Of course, everyone is free to doubt this, but it is supported by proof of the suttas.
See the Duration of Gotama Sasana.
This is also why Lord Buddha says that spiritual life is 100% dependent on noble association. See the Kalyāṇamittasutta
“Great king, this one time I was staying in the land of the Sakyans where they have a town named Townsville.
Ekamidāhaṁ, mahārāja, samayaṁ sakkesu viharāmi nagarakaṁ nāma sakyānaṁ nigamo.
Then the mendicant Ānanda came to me, bowed, sat down to one side, and said:
Atha kho, mahārāja, ānando bhikkhu yenāhaṁ tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā maṁ abhivādetvā ekamantaṁ nisīdi. Ekamantaṁ nisinno kho, mahārāja, ānando bhikkhu maṁ etadavoca:
‘Sir, good friends, companions, and associates are half the spiritual life.’
‘upaḍḍhamidaṁ, bhante, brahmacariyassa—yadidaṁ kalyāṇamittatā kalyāṇasahāyatā kalyāṇasampavaṅkatā’ti.
When he had spoken, I said to him:
Evaṁ vuttāhaṁ, mahārāja, ānandaṁ bhikkhuṁ etadavocaṁ:
‘Not so, Ānanda! Not so, Ānanda!
‘mā hevaṁ, ānanda, mā hevaṁ, ānanda.
Good friends, companions, and associates are the whole of the spiritual life.
Sakalameva hidaṁ, ānanda, brahmacariyaṁ—yadidaṁ kalyāṇamittatā kalyāṇasahāyatā kalyāṇasampavaṅkatā.
A mendicant with good friends, companions, and associates can expect to develop and cultivate the noble eightfold path.
Kalyāṇamittassetaṁ, ānanda, bhikkhuno pāṭikaṅkhaṁ kalyāṇasahāyassa kalyāṇasampavaṅkassa ariyaṁ aṭṭhaṅgikaṁ maggaṁ bhāvessati ariyaṁ aṭṭhaṅgikaṁ maggaṁ bahulīkarissati.
See also the Upaḍḍhasutta
Yes, Silabbata paramasa is an obstacle to Nibbāna. This obstacle is completely eradicated at the sotāpanna stage.
We agree that a person will become a Sotāpanna if they possess the necessary kusalas and noble association. If any of these conditions are lacking, the attainment of magga phala will not occur. A clear example of this is King Ajatasattu. He had the requisite kusalas to become a Sotāpanna; however, due to his association with Devadatta and his act of anantariya kamma by killing his father, King Bimbisāra, he obstructed his ability to achieve magga phala.
We can also become sotāpanna by listening to a discussion that is not addressed to us. See Kali the mother of Venerable Arahant Sona. She became a sotāpanna while listening to a discussion between two Yakkhas. Kali is the foremost laywoman in faith.
Birth of Sona Kutikanna
By then Ascetic Gautama had become a Sammā Sambuddha under the Bodhi tree in Bodh Gaya as Lord Gautama Buddha. The Buddha delivered His first sermon named “Dhammachakkappavattana sutta” meaning “Turning of the Wheel of Truth” to five previous ascetic companions at the Deer Park in Isipathana, now called Sārnath near Varanasi in India. It was on the full moon day of the month of July and it is said that large numbers of heavenly beings as well as other non-human beings had come there to listen to the Buddha’s first sermon. Among them was a yakkha general named Sātāgira who discovered that his friend named Hemavata, another yakkha general was not there listening to the sermon by the Buddha. So he left the Deer Park in search of his friend whom he met in the sky in Rajagaha where he informed his friend about the Buddha’s enlightenment and the first sermon. Hemavata asked a series of questions from Sātāgira about the Buddha’s virtuous conduct, wisdom and other characteristics of a Buddha which were described by Sātāgira to his satisfaction.
This discussion took place in the sky just above the house of Kāli’s parents while she was at the top floor near an open window getting some fresh air as it happened to be a warm night. She overheard the discussion between Sātāgira and Hemavata and was able to hear the noble qualities of the Buddha’s conduct, wisdom and other qualities of the Buddha. As she was listening to them, she developed immense faith and confidence in the Buddha and attained the first supra mundane spiritual stage of Stream Enterer (Sotāpanna) at that very moment. During the same night, Kali is said to have delivered a baby boy who was named Sona.
- This story proves once again that practicing jhānas is not a condition for magga phala.
Sir, I didn’t say that one must constantly engage in conversation with them. In fact, speaking just once with a noble person can be sufficient to become an ariya. This can even happen in informal settings, such as in a restaurant or during an activity. I recall that Venerable Amadassana Thero mentioned that you can have a conversation with an ariya just once over a cup of tea and become a sotāpanna. My statement is directed primarily at those who are discovering the Dhamma for the first time. Once one becomes a sotāpanna, they gain independence and no longer require a master.
“All one needs from an ariya (noble person) is an explanation of the Noble Truths, Paticca Samuppada, Tilakkhana, and so on.”
Sir, I completely agree with that!
Thank you for the clarifications, Sir. In the case of Venerable Arahant Kondanna, he was listening to Lord Buddha. As for Venerable Arahant Cittahattha, he listened to many discourses from both Lord Buddha and other noble individuals. While walking towards the monastery, he recalled these discourses and became a sotāpanna. Yes I agree one can become a sotāpanna at any moment. The key point here is the importance of associating with noble people.
- We are not living in the time of Lord Buddha, and we do not possess the iddhi powers to discern who is an ariya. An ariya can be either a layperson or a bhikkhu. However, to maximize our chances of engaging with noble individuals, it is advisable to seek discussions with bhikkhus or bhikkhunis. True bhikkhus and bhikkhunis devote their efforts to attaining Nibbāna 24 hours a day, without being distracted by worldly obligations, unlike laypeople. It is among these individuals that we may have the opportunity to meet arahants. This is why it is important to engage in conversations with bhikkhus and bhikkhunis.
- Of course, one can reach any stage of magga phala as a layperson, but nowadays, it is much more challenging. It is common to see sotāpannas and sakadāgāmis among laypeople; however, a sotāpanna can still enjoy sensual pleasures, which may raise doubts about the attainment of magga phala. Consider Sarakani, the drunken sotāpanna. It is indeed possible to become a sotāpanna by listening to Sarakani since he is an ariya.
- One must possess the necessary Kusalas to understand the Dhamma. You might find yourself surrounded by arahants but lack the Kusalas needed to comprehend their teachings. Devadatta is an example. Without the Kusalas developed in past lives, it is impossible to attain the sotāpanna stage. This site provides the opportunity to gain the appropriate understanding to achieve that goal. It is important to reflect on whether the four conditions are fulfilled in our lives!
- Sir, you know better than anyone the importance of learning from an ariya. Reading alone is not enough because we can be wrong. If a puthujunas reads alone in his corner, he can never become sotāpanna. I say you know better because your site is based on the explanations of an ariyas. You are aware of what happens when the puthujunas read and interpret the suttas.
- Look at the false meanings of Tilakkhana for example, and Anapanasati. It was Puthujunas who spread these erroneous beliefs(breath meditation, impermanence) which persist until today. Through ariyas like Venerable Waharaka Thero, we can see the danger of word-for-word translation. It was your site that convinced me of the importance of noble association. Before I came across your site, I thought that Nibbāna could be achieved alone at home. It was enough to read a book on Buddhism and meditate on breathing to achieve Nibbāna. See how ignorant I was. I didn’t even understand what it meant to take refuge in the Sangha. Even your site can be subject to misinterpretation if a wise person does not explain it to a person reading it. For example, the concept of Gandhabba can be interpreted as a soul by a person who has strong micchādiṭṭhi. I have sent articles from the site to people and believe me it has reinforced some of their erroneous beliefs. A Mahayanist told me that bhavas remind him of the states of Buddhahood.
- I clearly explained to him that the article on the site has nothing to do with it, but he persisted in his micchādiṭṭhi. This is yet another proof of the danger of reading without asking an ariya for explanations.
- The suttas were preserved and written down by arahants. How is it that verses written by arahants can be misinterpreted?? These are people who think that reading is enough but they forget that the Dhamma is not a common subject of knowledge. These are knowledge of the law of nature. Why will the Sasana disappear when the last Jati sotāpanna dies? The scriptures will be there, the Vinaya will be there but, no one will reach a stage of magga phala. This happens because no ariyas will be there to explain their meaning.
Reading is only an introduction to the Dhamma. Venerable Waharaka Thero said that reading gives us Anumolak Santiya (to be oriented towards imperturbable peace). However, this is not enough to become an ariya. See this video where he explains why. I suggest listening around 10:10.
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At Sāvatthī.
Sāvatthinidānaṁ.
Seated to one side, King Pasenadi said to the Buddha,
Ekamantaṁ nisinno kho rājā pasenadi kosalo bhagavantaṁ etadavoca:
“Just now, sir, as I was in private retreat this thought came to mind.
“idha mayhaṁ, bhante, rahogatassa paṭisallīnassa evaṁ cetaso parivitakko udapādi:
‘The teaching is well explained by the Buddha. But it’s for someone with good friends, companions, and associates, not for someone with bad friends, companions, and associates.’”
‘svākkhāto bhagavatā dhammo, so ca kho kalyāṇamittassa kalyāṇasahāyassa kalyāṇasampavaṅkassa, no pāpamittassa no pāpasahāyassa no pāpasampavaṅkassā’”ti.
“That’s so true, great king! That’s so true!” said the Buddha. And he repeated the king’s statement, adding:
“Evametaṁ, mahārāja, evametaṁ, mahārāja.
Svākkhāto, mahārāja, mayā dhammo. So ca kho kalyāṇamittassa kalyāṇasahāyassa kalyāṇasampavaṅkassa, no pāpamittassa no pāpasahāyassa no pāpasampavaṅkassāti.
“Great king, this one time I was staying in the land of the Sakyans where they have a town named Townsville.
Ekamidāhaṁ, mahārāja, samayaṁ sakkesu viharāmi nagarakaṁ nāma sakyānaṁ nigamo.
Then the mendicant Ānanda came to me, bowed, sat down to one side, and said:
Atha kho, mahārāja, ānando bhikkhu yenāhaṁ tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā maṁ abhivādetvā ekamantaṁ nisīdi. Ekamantaṁ nisinno kho, mahārāja, ānando bhikkhu maṁ etadavoca:
‘Sir, good friends, companions, and associates are half the spiritual life.’
‘upaḍḍhamidaṁ, bhante, brahmacariyassa—yadidaṁ kalyāṇamittatā kalyāṇasahāyatā kalyāṇasampavaṅkatā’ti.
When he had spoken, I said to him:
Evaṁ vuttāhaṁ, mahārāja, ānandaṁ bhikkhuṁ etadavocaṁ:
‘Not so, Ānanda! Not so, Ānanda!
‘mā hevaṁ, ānanda, mā hevaṁ, ānanda.
Good friends, companions, and associates are the whole of the spiritual life.
Sakalameva hidaṁ, ānanda, brahmacariyaṁ—yadidaṁ kalyāṇamittatā kalyāṇasahāyatā kalyāṇasampavaṅkatā.
A mendicant with good friends, companions, and associates can expect to develop and cultivate the noble eightfold path.
Kalyāṇamittassetaṁ, ānanda, bhikkhuno pāṭikaṅkhaṁ kalyāṇasahāyassa kalyāṇasampavaṅkassa ariyaṁ aṭṭhaṅgikaṁ maggaṁ bhāvessati ariyaṁ aṭṭhaṅgikaṁ maggaṁ bahulīkarissati.
And how does a mendicant with good friends develop and cultivate the noble eightfold path?
Kathañca, ānanda, bhikkhu kalyāṇamitto kalyāṇasahāyo kalyāṇasampavaṅko ariyaṁ aṭṭhaṅgikaṁ maggaṁ bhāveti, ariyaṁ aṭṭhaṅgikaṁ maggaṁ bahulīkaroti?
It’s when a mendicant develops right view, right thought, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right immersion, which rely on seclusion, fading away, and cessation, and ripen as letting go.
Idhānanda, bhikkhu sammādiṭṭhiṁ bhāveti vivekanissitaṁ virāganissitaṁ nirodhanissitaṁ vossaggapariṇāmiṁ, sammāsaṅkappaṁ bhāveti … sammāvācaṁ bhāveti … sammākammantaṁ bhāveti … sammāājīvaṁ bhāveti … sammāvāyāmaṁ bhāveti … sammāsatiṁ bhāveti … sammāsamādhiṁ bhāveti vivekanissitaṁ virāganissitaṁ nirodhanissitaṁ vossaggapariṇāmiṁ.
That’s how a mendicant with good friends develops and cultivates the noble eightfold path.
Evaṁ kho, ānanda, bhikkhu kalyāṇamitto kalyāṇasahāyo kalyāṇasampavaṅko ariyaṁ aṭṭhaṅgikaṁ maggaṁ bhāveti, ariyaṁ aṭṭhaṅgikaṁ maggaṁ bahulīkaroti.
And here’s another way to understand how good friends are the whole of the spiritual life.
Tadamināpetaṁ, ānanda, pariyāyena veditabbaṁ yathā sakalamevidaṁ brahmacariyaṁ—yadidaṁ kalyāṇamittatā kalyāṇasahāyatā kalyāṇasampavaṅkatāti.
For, by relying on me as a good friend, sentient beings who are liable to rebirth, old age, and death, to sorrow, lamentation, pain, sadness, and distress are freed from all these things.
Mamañhi, ānanda, kalyāṇamittaṁ āgamma jātidhammā sattā jātiyā parimuccanti, jarādhammā sattā jarāya parimuccanti, byādhidhammā sattā byādhito parimuccanti, maraṇadhammā sattā maraṇena parimuccanti, sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupāyāsadhammā sattā sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupāyāsehi parimuccanti.
This is another way to understand how good friends are the whole of the spiritual life.’
Iminā kho etaṁ, ānanda, pariyāyena veditabbaṁ yathā sakalamevidaṁ brahmacariyaṁ—yadidaṁ kalyāṇamittatā kalyāṇasahāyatā kalyāṇasampavaṅkatā’ti.
- Christian’s suggestion of having a master who monitors our progress is valid and essential. It is only valid for people below the sotāpanna stage. It is at the sotāpanna stage that one does not need a master since a sotāpanna is independent in the Dhamma. No matter his negligence and actions, a sotāpanna will become an arahant in a maximum of 7 bhava (state of existence), of course, he or she will never commit apayagami acts. The slightest negligence of a puthujunas can lead him into a very painful niraya like Avīci even if the person practices Dhamma. See the story of Queen Mallika. We must not make the mistake of missing the sotāpanna course because of our ego. It is safer to go and discuss with members of the Sangha to have the best chance. Of course, the person must have enough Kusalas Kamma to understand the Dhamma too. King Ajatasattu is another example of a missed opportunity. He had the Kusalas to become a sotāpanna but, committed anantariya Kamma under the influence of Devadatta. He’s in a niraiya right now. A puthujunas needs to hear the Dhamma from a noble person to attain the sotāpanna stage. We must understand what taking refuge in the Sangha is. Taking refuge in the Sangha means listening to the Dhamma of a noble person, that is to say, a person who has reached at least the sotāpanna stage. Lord Buddha has reached Parinibbāna, it is impossible to see him face to face again. The Dhamma is around us but our ignorance prevents us from seeing it. It takes a noble person to show us the beginning of the path to Nibbāna. It is only a Bodhisatta and a Paccekabodhisatta who are capable of attaining the Dhamma by themselves without the help of people. As beings who do not aspire to Buddhahood, we must associate with noble people to reach the first stage of Nibbāna. Since we did not know who was an ariya or not, the best way was to talk with bhikkhus or bhikkhunis. Of course, an ariya can be a layman or a laywoman. However, it is among the community of monks and nuns that one will be most likely to come across ariyas.
- Sangham saranam gacchami. I go to the Sangha for refuge.
- The Saṅgha of the Buddha’s disciples is practicing the way that’s good, sincere, systematic, and proper. It consists of the four pairs, the eight individuals. This is the Saṅgha of the Buddha’s disciples that is worthy of offerings dedicated to the gods, worthy of hospitality, worthy of a religious donation, worthy of greeting with joined palms, and is the supreme field of merit for the world.’“suppaṭipanno bhagavato sāvakasaṅgho ujuppaṭipanno bhagavato sāvakasaṅgho ñāyappaṭipanno bhagavato sāvakasaṅgho sāmīcippaṭipanno bhagavato sāvakasaṅgho, yadidaṁ cattāri purisayugāni aṭṭha purisapuggalā esa bhagavato sāvakasaṅgho, āhuneyyo pāhuneyyo dakkhiṇeyyo añjalikaraṇīyo anuttaraṁ puññakkhettaṁ lokassā”ti.
Hello Dosakkhayo, go see the Rohitassa sutta to get a good understanding.
Rohitassa was an anariya yogi who died while searching for the end of the universe, long before the Bodhisatta was born. He travelled widely, using his abhinna powers, for a hundred years. Eventually, his body could no longer withstand the pressure, and he died. After his death, he was reborn as Brahma. He then approached Lord Buddha to seek the answer to whether the end of the universe exists.
Just as Sir Lal pointed out, this is one of the unthinkable topics. Yogis of the past tried to reach the end of the universe with Abhinnas powers and all died before reaching their goals. It is impossible to reach the end of the universe. Lord Buddha said that it is by attaining Nibbāna that one reaches the end of the universe.
The end of the world can never
Gamanena na pattabbo,
be reached by traveling.
lokassanto kudācanaṁ;
But without reaching the end of the world,
Na ca appatvā lokantaṁ,
there’s no release from suffering.
dukkhā atthi pamocanaṁ.
So an intelligent person, understanding the world,
Tasmā have lokavidū sumedho,
has completed the spiritual journey, and gone to the end of the world.
Lokantagū vusitabrahmacariyo;
A calm one, knowing the end of the world,
Lokassa antaṁ samitāvi ñatvā,
does not hope for this world or the next.”
Nāsīsatī lokamimaṁ parañcā”ti.
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Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu 🙏🏿🙏🏿🙏🏿 You have accumulated a lot of Kusalas Kamma! May these Kusalas help you to achieve Nibbāna as quickly as possible!
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To complete your comment, Christian. It is simply impossible to become sotāpanna alone. A puthujunas must associate with a person who is at least sotāpanna, to become one. Your suggestion of a master who follows our progress is perfect!
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