[cubibobi]

Thank you, Lal.

So, we don’t attach to “distorted sanna“, but to samphassa-ja-vedana right? Thus,

“distorted sanna –> samphassa-ja-vedana –> tanha“

There is always the samphassa-ja-vedana in between, and not

“distorted sanna” –> tanha“

 

I must say I am still digesting the concept of “distorted sanna” (working my way through slowly), so, about my other question: can we call it “uppatti bhavanga sanna“?

[cubibobi]

Such educational discussion!

— Under #50692, Lal wrote:
“Puthujjana (or even a Sotapanna) may attach to such “mind-made vedana” because they do not understand that they are not “real” at a deeper level.”

So, attachment is really attachment to a vedana, and I can see that via paticca samuppada (the niddesa version):

…salayatana paccaya samphassa-ja-vedana, samphassa-ja-vedana paccaya tanha …

 

— also under #50692
“Those below the Anagami stage (who have not fully grasped how “bahidda sanna” arises, would automatically be attached to that “bahidda sanna,” thinking it would benefit oneself.”

Do we also attach to sanna? I thought the flow would be:

sanna –> vedana –> tanha

Also, we discussed “distorted sanna”. If we can make up a phrase, can we call “distorted sanna” “uppatti bhavanga sanna“?

Best,
Lang

[cubibobi]

This is off topic, but since Lal brought up the mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta (DN 22), and the verse:

“Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu araññagato vā rukkhamūlagato vā suññāgāragato vā nisīdati pallaṅkaṁ ābhujitvā ujuṁ kāyaṁ paṇidhāya parimukhaṁ satiṁ upaṭṭhapetvā.”

… I’d like to suggest everyone look at this post, if you haven’t seen it before:

Prerequisites for the Satipaṭṭhāna Bhāvanā

Here Lal explained the deeper meaning of the verse as getting into certain mindsets, and keeping the mind on the main subject of nibbana or cooling down. (Bullets 3,4,5,6)

Up until then I had only known the mundane meaning of the verse, which is similar to the translation in the above-mentioned link:  Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta (DN 22) :

It’s when a mendicant — gone to a wilderness, or to the root of a tree, or to an empty hut — sits down cross-legged, sets their body straight, and establishes mindfulness in their presence.

I went to a number of “vipassana” retreats before, and this verse was always interpreted only with this mundane meaning, with some explaining the last part to mean “keeping attention in the area around the mouth” (i.e. breath meditation).

I can’t tell you all how exhilarated I was when I first came upon the above post! To the point where I memorized the verse — and Pali was no easy thing to a non native Sri Lankan or Indian like me.

Best,
Lang

 

[cubibobi]

I think they are different processes because:

(1) We know that “nāmarūpa paccayā salāyatana” is a step in Paṭicca Samuppāda, and like others, each step depends on what anusaya/āsava come up, assuming we are talking about akusala-mula paṭicca samuppāda.

(2) Lal said: The verse, “jāti sañjāti okkanti abhinibbatti khandhānaṃ pātubhāvo āyatanānaṃ paṭilābho, ayaṃ vuccatāvuso: ‘jāti’” describes the birth of a human or animal with a physical body.

So, the above just describes the birth of a human baby, and a baby’s brain is not fully developed, so āsava/anusaya do not come up until later.

I remember that some time ago, we had a discussion as to whether a baby had “distorted saññā“, and we said that it did not because its brain was not yet developed.

Best,
Lang

[cubibobi]

— From dosakkhayo:
“I believe that the core keyword of Buddha Dhamma is addiction.”

I found contemplation in terms of addiction or intoxication is of big benefit. We can relate to this since we are familiar with being addicted to one thing or another, and experiencing relief (niramisa sukha) of breaking free from the addiction.

Addiction or intoxication is majji, and I’d like to share two posts that have helped me understand this concept.— (1)

Majjhimā Patipadā – Way to Relinquish Attachments to this World

Bullet #1 explains the deeper aspect of the Path as more than just a “middle path”, but a path free of intoxication.— (2)

The Five Precepts – What the Buddha Meant by Them
Bullet #8 explains the deeper aspect of the 5th precept as also avoiding being intoxicated.

The 5th precept is so easily misunderstood as just abstaining from alcohol or substances. In my native language, this precept is called the “wine precept”. There are people who follow this precept so strictly, to the point of not taking even a sip of champagne at a wedding, but wantonly breaking other precepts, like musavada for example, without giving it another thought. This precept, when not understood in its deeper aspect, easily leads to silabata paramasa.

Best,
Lang

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dosakkhayo

[cubibobi]

My 2 cents on this.

Let’s say that we are talking about a single male, I wonder if the real issue behind the question is something like this:

One’s kama raga (in this case sex) is particularly strong that one needs to seek a relief through:

(i) Going where prostitution is legal to relieve oneself.<br /><br />
(ii) Having sex with another consenting, non-attached adult who is not one’s stable partner.<br /><br />
etc. other situations in the kind of “gray area” like above.

One does the above to “scratch an itch” that has become too much, otherwise one may commit something more serious, such as rape.

<br /><br />
If this is the case, then the “benefit” is a bit of a thrill, which is fleeting, but the downside is too grave, and I can think of just a few:

(1) It’s easily addicting, as Christian pointed out. This itch does not go away with the above activities; instead it comes back stronger, and it may lead one into “grayer” areas with time.

(2) As Nibbid83 said, there are derivative circumstances concerning the person accepting money for sex we are not aware of. What if we are aiding to perpetuate such an “industry”, further harming people in it.

(3) Harm to ourselves — the most serious one, leading ourselves away from nibbana. Not only that, according Sir Lal, this may be apayagami kamma.

<br /><br />
So, how does we cope with it? As a puthujjana, I don’t know, but I have found this very helpful, and I can vouch that nirāmisa sukha is real:

Three Kinds of Happiness – What is Nirāmisa Sukha?

There are 3 kinds of happiness, and sex is an example of sāmisa sukha, which is too short-lived. Convince the mind of a more stable happiness — nirāmisa sukha — and it will wean itself off sāmisa sukha.

<br /><br />
Best of luck to anyone going through this! This is a tough one. Anyone with ideas — especially anagamis — please chime in.<br /><br />
Lang

[cubibobi]

Somewhere on the site is the story of a little girl who remembered her past bhava of a deva. Would that be an example of cutupapāda ñāna?

post on Boy Who Remembered Pāli Suttas for 1500 Years

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Jittananto

[cubibobi]

I think the data flow is like this, using sight as an example:

External rupa –> physical eyes –> brain –> pasada rupa –> hadaya vatthu (which vibrates 17 times that make up a citta vithi)

Phassa actually happens at the pasada rupa –> hadaya vatthu, correct? If it is samphassa, then the cittā that arise are contaminated (in 9 stages I believe); and if it’s a neutral phassa then the cittā that arise are not contaminated, such as cittā of an arahant.

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dosakkhayo

[cubibobi]

“Through meditation, we can all access the knowledge of our past lives, which in Pali we call paṭiccasamuppāda ñāṇa.”

 

Isn’t this knowledge called pubbe nivāsānussati ñāna in Pali?

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Jittananto

[cubibobi]

@pathfinder

Yes, I should not have mentioned “anatta“; that was habit.

My main point, which I of course bungled, was this: it’s usually not beneficial to contemplate in terms of self/no self (whether from sakkaya ditthi or anatta), since it too often spawns speculations of “what if” scenarios; it tends to lead to arguments as to whether there is free will, whether things are determistic, etc. I often see this in people who contemplate self / no self, and thus just wanted to share.

BUT, a disclaimer here: this is my personal experience and observation as a puthujjana working toward the sotapanna anugami stage. Others’ approaches will be vastly different.

In my experience, contemplating sakkaya ditthi as the ditthi that the world is of nicca, sukha, atta nature, and what a folly that ditthi is, is of great benefit; one can make enormous progress with it.

The “perception of self” (māna samyojana) is, as we know, removed at the arahant stage. In this community, if there are anagamis working on this samyojana then that is fantastic!

Best,
Lang

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pathfinder

[cubibobi]

My 2 cents on this discussion.

First, the argument from pathfinder:

1) Everything is based on cause and effect

2) With complete knowledge of the causes you will have complete knowledge of the effects

3) With complete knowledge of the effect, since these effects are also causes for the future effects, one can tell with striking accuracy of the state of things in the past and future infinitely, if the being is capable enough to absorb and process all the causes in the present moment.

4) With this, we can also say that what we do next is based on cause and effect, eg the being can predict what we will do next.
—-

Premise #2 is highly questionable. There is no such thing as “complete knowledge of the causes” — not even for inert matter, let alone the mind!

The thought experiment of Laplace’s Demon is also quite suspect:

“if someone (the demon) knows the precise location and momentum of every atom in the universe, their past and future values for any given time are entailed…”

I am no physicist, but I learned that there is some kind of uncertainty principle which states that it is not possible to know both the location and momentum of a particle.

The notion of the possibility of deriving the past (which has no beginning), present, future of atoms, particles, or even 5 khandā or cittā — even as just as an idle intellectual pastime, and no matter how cleverly constructed — is futile. Not only that, it can be addicting, since seemingly clever arguments is often mistaken for “profundity of thought”, when it just leads to sampappalāpā, not nibbana.

 

Second, just a general observation based on my experience of listening to numerous “Buddhists”, including even bhikkhu teachers who consider the truth of “no-self”, i.e. there is no “doer”, the highest realization, and that seeing this means attaining arahantship (seeing the absolute truth). It leads to statement like we see above:

“And that’s why the absolute truth is that there is “no doer”, “no me”, but we have the distorted perception that there is, until we reach the Arahant stage”.

In this PD community, we have learned that anatta does NOT mean “no-self”; after learning true Dhamma, we see that “no-self” (no permament soul type entity, no “doer” behind phenomena) is embedded in the teaching, not an “ultimate truth” the realization of which brings arahanthood. Yet we still cannot resist bringing up this “no-self” business in a back-handed way via clever arguments. There is something very addicting about this notion.

My intention is by no means to offend anyone. It’s just that I have seen too often how arguments/reasoning of this type leads to endless discussion without leading in the direction of nibbana, in my opinion.

Best,
Lang

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Yash RS

[cubibobi]

Thank you for this discussion, since I recently chatted with some people about meditation, and it was relevant to this. They practice “mindfulness”, which they consider to be “vipassana“.

Their practice was to be “fully present”, to be aware of what is going on in the moment: that one is breathing, that one is seeing something, hearing something, thinking something, etc.

This kind of practice, when cultivated well, probably brings a sense of deep calm (samatha) and is mistaken to be Buddhist meditation. Yet it is still mundane (anariya) meditation since it delves into the world of the senses.

It is good reminder for us from the “Sandha Sutta (AN 11.9)” as Lal pointed out above:

“…They don’t meditate (with the mind focused on) what is seen, heard, thought, known, attained, sought, or explored by the mind.”

Sadhu!
Lang

 

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pathfinder

[cubibobi]

“Thats my doubt sir. The Meaning of Anatta is not being asked/questioned .”

Ah, I see. You provided a translation that says “When one perceives with wisdom that all things are without a Self...”, so I thought that was what you took anatta to mean, in which case I suggested you look at anatta in a different way.

So, your question, if I understand correctly, is this:

In “sabbe dhammā anatta …”, does “sabbe dhammā” include nibbana?
If it does then it follows that nibbana is dukkha.

I still consider nibbana to NOT be included in “sabbe dhammā“, and my reasoning this this:

You referenced:

Ultimate Realities – Table

The table lists 3 Ultimate Realities (paramatta dhammā), of cittā, cetasikā, rupā
The three paramatta dhammā make up everything (sankhata) in this world (of 31 realms)
Nibbana is on its own column, separate from the paramatta dhammā, and is asankhata

Regards,
Lang

[cubibobi]

Nibbana is definitely NOT anatta. In fact, ONLY nibbana is atta. Check out this post

Anuloma Khanti and Sammattaniyāma – Pre-requisites for a Sotapanna

Right above #8, it says:<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />
“Only Nibbāna Has the Characteristics of Nicca, Sukha, Atta!”

Furthermore, throughout the site, we are advised to NOT take anatta to mean “without a Self“. Several posts explain the real meaning of anatta (as well as anicca and dukkha).

One such example:

Anatta is a Characteristic of the World, not About a “Self”

 

And the two posts mentioned above are part of a whole section on tilakkhana:

Tilakkhana – Introduction

 

Best,

Lang

[cubibobi]

In the 31 realms, there IS a realm of unconscious beings, but it’s not inanimate “elements of the universe”. It’s the asañña brahma realm where there is no citta vithi flowing (thus no consciousness). Somewhere on this site, this realm is likened to being under anesthesia, and your analogy of the “pause suffering” button of a cosmic horror story is quite apt in my opinion.

Also on this site, perhaps under the meditation section, Lal cautioned against a type of practice to STOP thoughts. And I have seen people attempting this, as if thoughts are the obstacles to real peace of mind. Perhaps this type of practice can lead to rebirth in the asañña realm.

To build on your analogy of samsara as a horror movie, I’d like to think of the deva realms and brahma realms (other than  asañña which is the “pause”) as the “happy” parts of the movie. The movie can have neutral or happy sections, yet we know that the horror part (apāyā) will happen sooner or later, and that it is the dominant feature of the movie.

Best,
Lang

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rrkk01, Jittananto

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