Video illustrating the concept of Niraya (Hell)

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    • #46050
      Gad
      Participant

      I came across a video that shows the concept of Niraya hell well. In this video we see a young girl who committed sexual misconduct and an abortion that caused her own death.What also surprised me is that the video indirectly shows the concept of Gandhabba. For example we see the girl watch his own body right before she was taken by the niraya’s executioners. She was brought in front of Judge Yama. He send her in the depths of Niraya for a long time. The video lasts 13 minutes

      WARNING : Please DON’T watch If you an sensitive persons. The video shows different tortures suffered by the beings in this apaya. Unfortunately the reality is much worse. The Lord buddha himself said that no suffering in this human world can be compared to the apaya especially Niraya. The suffering shown in this video is only a pale copy.

      It shows the importance of cultivating the pure Dhamma which leads to the cessation of all rebirth. As long as we remain in Samsarā we will not always have the happiness we want (Annica) and we will inevitably be submissive to the apayas and helpless (Dukkha and Anatta).

       Here the video: 

       

    • #46190
      Christian
      Participant

      Sorry to say but this kind of videos will make people ridicule Buddhism, it’s not really different catholic propaganda that they try to fear-guilt people into practice. For most people it does not matter if hell exists or not, they do not care. What they need is to have videos that explain Dhamma in logical manner and approachable way as puredhamma.net explains, I do not think so this type of videos fit this site level of understanding of Dhamma

      • #46191
        Gad
        Participant

        Hello Christian

        I don’t completely agree with you. To understand the Buddha Dhamma and accept that you need to have the fear of Samsara. The fear to know you will end up in a apaya if you don’t became  sotāpanna.  If you don’t fear and care about the future suffering of the Samsarā so what the point to pratice the Buddha Dhamma??? If the people don’t care of hell is their problems. Of course they will not believe they have micchādiṭṭhi and they are puthujanas. The basic of Buddha Dhamma is to believe in the 31 plans. If someone didn’t believe in this he can’t becomes a sotapanna. Sir Lal insists of the fear of apayas when he makes his posts. In one of his posts he shares a video who records sounds of niraya hell.

        I don’t know if you watched clearly but in the video the girl commit sexual misconduct and makes an abortion who lead her to his own death. Before she died she had the mind state of a niraya being. I analyzed the video in more depth before sharing it on the forum. I was seeing some concepts like gandhabba and state of mind who lead to a rebirth. You said “that fear guilt to people into pratice”.  Hiri and Otappa are among the 25 goods cetasikas in the 52. (HIRI) shame or fear to do bad deeds and (OTAPPA) the fear of the consequences of such deeds. We NEED to have this fear in the beginning is the BASIS.  People will ALWAYS talk bad on  Buddhism is anatta(uncontrolable) we can’t do anything about that. In Lord Buddha’s time this was the case. In the modern day is still the case (I saw people on reddit talking badly about puredhamma site)

        Now in the moderns days we have this kind of technology where we can make somes concept in a visual way. Some people are more visual so that can help them.The purpose of this video is not to makes propaganda but to explain that bad deeds lead to bad rebirths. I don’t see what is not usefull to shares it. If Sir Lal thinks is not appropriate he can delete this post i will respect that.

        (I shows this video to a friend who are non buddhist. She was scares and shocks she thinking the buddhists doesn’t believe in hell. I told her no we believe in hell but unlike other religions beliefs is not eternal. So i think this kind of video can be helpfull to destroys somes myths on buddhism. I was a christians before and i see what do you mean but in this case i didn’t see propaganda. She didn’t seem to think is ridiculeous and she learn something new!! )

        Of course puredhamma have more explanations and go more deeper i can’t deny this !!

         

         

         

         

         

         

        • #46229
          Christian
          Participant

          To understand the Buddha Dhamma and accept that you need to have the fear of Samsara

          It’s impossible to become Sotapanna with fear, as fear is unwholesome state of mind. Saying that “become Sotapanna or you go to hell” is such bad take, that what catholic and other religious people do to fear people into practice thru fear. This will never work, as saying “do not bad things or you go to jail” – why people are still in jail? People work differently and this is actually ignorance that may harm Buddhism in eyes of many people who do not understand it properly. First people need to understand the concepts and the main messege of Buddha, later the things as “hell” become self evident so you just starting from the wrong foot and side which means you need to understand Buddha Dhamma better. Plus video shows wrong Dhamma concepts that are not really Dhamma but religious addition like “state of mind before dying” etc. also how she went to hell instantly without doing antariya kamma? This video is just fear inducing religious stuff that unintentionally mock Buddha Dhamma, people who made do not understand Dhamma and core concepts of it.

          To sum it up for people who may see this thread first time – this got nothing to do with Buddhism in pure form.

    • #46193
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Thanks and Merit to both of you for your comments. Christian, it is good to see you at the forum after a while.

      The issue in question is a valid one. There are countless abortions taking place today. 

      • Taking any life must be avoided. However, taking a human life is MUCH worse than killing an animal. That is because it is very difficult to get a human life. Even after being born in the human realm (as a human gandhabba), one must be born with a physical body (with a brain) to be able to understand complex issues, especially Buddha Dhamma.
      • Having a physical human with a brain is important because the brain slows down our responses to external sensory inputs. That and the presence of the neocortex in the brain gives a human a unique ability to think while responding to such external stimuli. That makes it possible to change our gati (habits/character). See “Truine Brain: How the Mind Rewires the Brain via Meditation/Habits.”
      • Thus, while it is extremely rare for a birth in the human realm, it is even more difficult to be born with a physical body. That is why killing a fetus is much worse than even killing thousands of animals.
      • See “Buddhist Explanations of Conception, Abortion, and Contraception” and “Cloning and Gandhabba” for details on how a baby is conceived. 
      • Most people today think a baby is not “human” until it is born after nine months in a womb. In fact, many are trying to legalize abortion even to the last day and even just after the baby is born. That is immoral and is a heinous crime, just like killing an adult. A human life (gandhabba) must enter a womb before a baby can start to grow. 
      • P.S. Buddha Dhamma does not condone having sex before marriage. But if one must have sex, it is easy to avoid getting pregnant by using condoms. Once a gandhabba enters a womb, that baby’s life is no different than any other human life.
      1 user thanked author for this post.
      Gad
      • #46195
        Gad
        Participant

        Thank you Sir. The main message of the video is to avoid this type of deeds 

    • #46205
      namo0804
      Participant

      Hello, Gad.

      I like to leave some comments in support of yours. 

      I agree that we should be afraid of the danger of Sansara.

      But I think the procedure of learning is also important.

      It is important for beginners to accept Buddha’s worldview(including kamma), at first.

      We can study Buddha’s teaching sequence in many suttas.

      [Dana → Sila → How to being Deva → Dangerous of sensual pleasure → Four noble Truth] is that.

       

      Sentient beings tend to accept things that seem beneficial.

      So, it is necessary to do good deeds for the purpose of a good rebirth, initially.

      In that process, we can naturally absorb the law of Kamma – Vipaka.

      Accepting the above, the dangers of Apaya will naturally seep into people’s minds.

      Then, someone can strive to achieve Sotapanna at that time because one understood the necessity.

      But if someone faces the scary part of Dhamma at first, he or she may have resistance to Buddha Dhamma.

      Of course, there are those who want to learn Dhamma for the purpose of Sotapanna from the beginning.

      So we need to think about the learner’s type (Gati) on a case-by-case basis.

      Because each person has a different way of accepting it.

      I think that is why Ven Lal describes “Three Levels” of Practice.

       

      P. S.

      I am a non-English speaker, so I may not be expressing myself well.

      If I have been rude, please let me know. I am sorry about that.

       

       

      With Metta

      • #46209
        Gad
        Participant

        Hello Namo0804 !!!

        Don’t worry english is not my first language to i have sometimes many difficulty to express my point of view clearly especially about Dhamma. 

        I totally agree with your point. Dana sila and Bhavana are the basis. I  share this video for those on this forum who are more visual. I also see some concept like abortion, gandhabba and state of mind. That why i was thinking that can be interresting. Like you said each persons had different type of gati !

         

        May you achieve the path 🙏🏿

         

        With Metta

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    • #46208
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Thank you both for the comments.

      I think Christian’s point could be the following: The video shows the unfortunate girl dying due to her attempted abortion effort and immediately being born in hell.

      • I agree that is unlikely. Unless it is an anantarika kamma (or one has exhausted all kammic energy for the human bhava), one will not be released from the human bhava to another bhava at the moment of death.
      • Since she died at an early age due to an accident, it is unlikely that she had exhausted all kammic energy for her human bhava. Thus, her human gandhabba should come out of the dead body without changing the bhava to a lower one. 

      P.S. After a lengthy discussion, the conclusion was determined to be not accurate. See the following discussion and comment #46280.

      • #46210
        Gad
        Participant

        So Sir what about her state of mind ?? She had a strong dosa before her death, right? In the Niraya the dosa are the predominant gati. Maybe the idea in this video misses some details? 

    • #46212
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Yes. The video is not correct in that aspect. Just because she had dosa in her mind at the moment of death of her PHYSICAL BODY does not matter.

      1. The death of the physical human body is not the end of the human bhava (existence). Human bhava can last hundreds of thousands of years. In between having physical bodies, the same human gandhabba may live a long time. The length of the human bhava depends on each person. 

      2. Switching to another bhava (whether in niraya or any other like Brahma) happens ONLY at the end of the human bhava, i.e., at the end of the lifetime of the human gandhabba. Enter “gandhabba” into the search box on the top right and read some posts.

      3. But there are exceptions when a human bhava can end before the end of the lifetime of the human gandhabba. That is in the case of one who committed an anantarika kamma, like killing a parent, injuring an Arahant, injuring a Budha, etc. Again, read on “anantarika kamma.” For example, Devadatta’s life ended when he was reborn in hell (niraya) when he injured the Buddha.

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      Gad
    • #46213
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Also, some people think that niraya (loosely translated as “hell”) is not real and is made up by others and not explained by the Buddha. 

      • The Buddha has emphasized the unbearable suffering in the niraya in several suttas. See, for example, “Devadūta Sutta (MN 130)” 
      1 user thanked author for this post.
      Gad
    • #46232
      Yash RS
      Participant

      So does it mean that if a person has committed many bad kamma, he or she will not end up in the apaya unless the human bhava is exhausted?

      Do the bad kammas not exhaust the human bhava? 

       

      • #46234
        Christian
        Participant

        There is sutta when Buddha say even “good” people to lower realms and “bad” people go to higher realms.

    • #46233
      Yash RS
      Participant

      Also, having sex before marriage is a bad kamma? If yes then why is it so? Is it a sexual misbehaviour?

       

    • #46235
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Questions from Yash RS:

      “So does it mean that if a person has committed many bad kamma, he or she will not end up in the apaya unless the human bhava is exhausted?”

      • Yes. One’s bhava does not change until its kammic energy is exhausted. 

      “Do the bad kammas not exhaust the human bhava?”

      • No. In the same way, good kammas do not extend the bhava either.
      • However, a bhava can be “broken” before the end of its kammic energy in the case of an anantarika kamma. There are bad anantarika kamma (like killing one’s parents) that will result in being born in an apaya upon the death of the current human body. There are also good anantarika kamma (like cultivating an Ariya/anariya jhana) that result in being born in a Brahma realm at the death of the current human body.

      “Also, having sex before marriage is a bad kamma? If yes then why is it so? Is it a sexual misbehaviour?”

      • Yes. It is a bad kamma, but not a strong one that can lead to rebirth by itself. It is like stealing.

       

      Christian’s comment:

      “There is sutta when Buddha say even “good” people to lower realms and “bad” people go to higher realms.”

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    • #46256
      Yash RS
      Participant

       

      “There are several such examples mentioned in the Tipiṭaka. A famous example is about a frog who was attentively listening to a discourse of the Buddha. Of course a frog could not understand what the Buddha was saying. But the “gati sound” (“gati handa” in Sinhala) that came from the Buddha combined with sansaric gati of the frog led the frog to attentively listen to the pleasing sound from the Buddha and to have a pleasant mindset.

       

      While listening to the discourse, the frog was accidentally killed by the walking stick of a person there, and the frog was born in a deva loka instantaneously. “

      So how did the frog’s bhava end if it was killed by someone, or was it that his bhava ended that’s why it got killed?

      There is one more account when a monkey offered the Buddha some honey and after accepting the food, the monkey was very happy and died because of falling in the excitement and becomes a Deva. So how did the bhava end in both the cases?

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      Gad
    • #46257
      Lal
      Keymaster

      That is a good question.

      The answer could be the following. A cuti-patisandhi moment is defined as a change in bhava

      • There are only three categories of bhava: kama bhava (including all 11 realsm in kama loka: four apayas, human realm, and the six Deva realms), rupa bhava (20 rupavacara Brahma realms), and arupa bhava (4 arupavacara Brahma realms). See “Bhava Sutta (SN 45. 164).”
      • In both of the above cases, there was no change change in bhava. Both the animal realms and the Deva realms are within the kama bhava. Also, see “Gati Sutta (AN 9.68).”

      The critical point is that both animals’ gati changed momentarily, and before the gati changed back to their original “animal gati” they died, and the gandhabba that came out with the new gati instantly transformed to match the “better gati” prevailing that that moment.

      • Even though anyone’s gati can change like that, the physical body prevents the gandhabba from transforming to acquire the new gati.  But if the gandhabba comes out (due to the physical body being dead), it will instantly transform according to the gati at the moment.
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    • #46259
      Gad
      Participant

       

      Here is another example of a bhikkhu named Isidore who can see his past lifes. He says that when he was an animal, he had a feeling of devotion, towards the monks.

      The vision of his past and future lives

      (Lal’s note: You can read the Engish version by right-clicking inside the web page and selecting “Translate to English.” )

      “The devotion of animals

      When in his meditation he walked through his life as a sow, Isidore saw that his animal spirit could feel a sense of admiration and even devotion towards noble beings, such as monks. This is not difficult to imagine since we can see, for example, the differences in behavior of a dog towards a human, depending on the latter’s intentions.”

       

       

       

    • #46261
      Yash RS
      Participant

      “Yes. The video is not correct in that aspect. Just because she had dosa in her mind at the moment of death of her PHYSICAL BODY does not matter.”

      So how do we explain this with the above approach?

    • #46266
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Thank you, Dieu! 

      Yash RS wrote: “Yes. The video is not correct in that aspect. Just because she had dosa in her mind at the moment of death of her PHYSICAL BODY does not matter.”

      • What video are you referring to?
    • #46267
      Yash RS
      Participant

      The hell illustration video in this forum #46050

    • #46269
      Christian
      Participant

      The only explanation is that frog attained jhana. It’s pretty interesting if jhana would be possible for animals :)

      Three potential explanations:

      1. Frog attained jhana
      2. Frog attained samadhi (which is not regular state of mind that you can set yourself up thru emotions, but doubt as this takes one effort)
      3. Frog was at the end of bhava and things happen because of good kamma of the frog.

       I think Yash misintepreting emotions (vedana) with mental state (citta)

      There was other sutta when dying monk was taught by Ananda metta meditation, Buddha “scolded” Ananda that he should teach him Dhamma (Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta) so they come to his realm of devas to teach him Dhamma. Seems if the is strong samadhi and proper citta it may influence rebirth to some extent but I would not say it’s bulletproof method. It may work for certain individuals only.

      The point is that Metta worked as gateway to jhana, you can not have metta without jhana to be honest the frog example is really interesting.

      • #46274
        Gad
        Participant

         Christian said:  “The only explanation is that frog attained jhana. It’s pretty interesting if jhana would be possible for animals :) “

        I do not think so. However, they can have pitī which is a factors of Jhanas.

         

        There was a story of a disciple who was a dog who followed a paccekabuddha in one of his past lives. When the paccekabuddha reached parinibbānna, the dog died of grief. After his death, he took rebirth, as a Deva. After his existence as a Deva, he was reborn, as a human. He met Lord Gautama Buddha and became an sotāpanna.

        Ghosaka-setthi

        His story as sotāpanna 

        Ghosa

        His story as dog.

         

         

         

         In both cases of the dog and the frog, we can see that they experienced extreme and contradictory emotions. However, the two ended up in a happy rebirth.

         

         

         

    • #46278
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Christian wrote:

      “Three potential explanations:

      1. Frog attained jhana
      2. Frog attained samadhi (which is not regular state of mind that you can set yourself up thru emotions, but doubt as this takes one effort)
      3. Frog was at the end of bhava and things happen because of good kamma of the frog.”

      None of those can or need to explain the observations. 

      1. A being in an apaya (including animals) cannot cultivate jhana.
      2. A being in an apaya (including animals) cannot cultivate samadhi.
      3. The frog was in the kama bhava. In becoming a Deva, there was no “change of bhava.” Both the frog and the Deva are in the “kama bhava.” The frog only changed the realm from the animal realm to the Deva realm, and both are within the kama bhava.

      That is what I explained in my comment (#46257) above. But since it is a bit deeper (and complex) situation, let me further clarify:

      •  Animals and humans have this unique situation where there is a “dense physical body” shielding the subtle “manomaya kaya” (gandhabba). Thus, normally a change in the gati of the gandhabba cannot lead to a change of the realm within the kama bhava. But in the case of the frog, for example, the gati changed from “frog gati” to a “Deva gati” due to the change of the mindset triggered by listening to the Buddha’s voice. If the frog had not died quickly enough BEFORE that “Deva gati”  changed back to the “frog gati,” it would not become a Deva
      • The second point is that a frog becoming a Brahma is impossible since “Brahma gati” requires the cultivation of jhana, and a frog or any being in an apaya cannot cultivate jhanas or generate “jhanic cittas.
      • Any living being without a “dense physical body” shielding the “manomaya kaya” will be instantaneously changed, according to gati. For example, Devas do not have such a second “dense body” in addition to the fine Deva body they are born with. Thus, if a Deva generates hateful thoughts, that Deva can be instantly reborn in a lower realm since that is a significant change of gati.

      Please feel free to ask questions if that is not clear.

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    • #46279
      Yash RS
      Participant

      I understand all this now, but the video #46050, the girl died with dosa in her mind, which matches the gati of niraya which is in the same kama bhava like the human realm. So why can’t she be born in niraya since the mindset changed to dosa? Or is it that a very high dosa is required for that to happen?

      1 user thanked author for this post.
      Gad
    • #46280
      Lal
      Keymaster

      You are right, Yash. 

      • I made a mistake in my reply #46208 and #46212 above. The girl in that video was likely reborn in an apaya because she had a “dosa mindset” at the moment of her death.
      • This “change of mindest” during life is called a “temporary bhavanga.” For details, see “Bhava and Bhavaṅga – Simply Explained!

      The presence of a “dense physical body” in humans and animals makes the analysis of certain situations complex. 

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    • #46282
      Christian
      Participant

      Can you explain more on gathi in that context? For example gathi is translated as habit, changing habits take a lot of time (and sometimes it’s impossible without Dhamma insight or because person is not born as Tihetuka) so “just thinking” about something in form of Gandhabba will make one change the form? It seems I get used to “mundane” gathi or physical-body gathi. Something ain’t right here for me, I understand what you mean but I can not picture it in logical way yet, but got the glimpse.

      So for example:

      • You have physical body so the mind-energy that influence Gandhabba would be “slowed” as physical body can not catch up with changes that quickly. If someone is addicted to eating chocolate and does not want it, he can not change gathi on the go because brain/human body limits those sudden changes (as it’s not gandhaba form)
      • If you die and gandhabba comes out now because of less density now “bhava” becoming a limit factor, so what here will be dominant in change? gathi, kamma or gandhaba? (I guess calculation is based on both in cuti-patisandi moment)
      • Even finer bodies as you explain in deva would react to deva thoughts but what about kamma, kamma of the thought is enough to change bhava?

      There are some missing links or me it terms of priority of calculation in kamma/gathi/bhava changes, I also accept if this is one of unthinakbles so if that go beyond our reach of understanding we will drop it

    • #46295
      Lal
      Keymaster

      No need to drop this discussion. We are discussing the fundamentals that we need to learn. I am willing to continue as long as it takes.

      1. Gati (pronounced “gathi”) that we need to get rid of are one’s “habits” (in particular, bad habits) and one’s (bad) character qualities. 

      • If one has “apayagami gati” it is likely that one will be reborn in an apaya.  The tendency to engage in apunna (akusala) kamma increases with “apayagami gati.
      • Then there are “good gati” that lead to rebirth in the “good realms” at or above the human realm. The tendency to engage in punna kamma increases with “good gati.
      • Average humans (puthujjana) who have not understood Buddha Dhamma can be induced to both punna and apunna kamma, i.e., they sometimes have “apayagami gati” and have “good gati” other times (depending the circumstances.)

      2. It is impossible to get rid of “apayagami gati” or to maintain “good gati” under certain circumstances (e.g., under temptations) with sheer willpower. One must “see” (with wisdom or with the understanding of the Four Noble Truths/Paticca Samuppada/Tilakkhana) the dangers of “apayagami gati.” With that understanding, one can also “see” that even having “good gati” under most situations is not enough to stop “apayagami gati” under tempting situations.

      • When one “sees the above without any doubt,” one automatically loses “apayagami gati.” There is no need to worry about committing any apayagami deeds.  Furthermore, it will block any previously acquired kammic energies bringing rebirth in an apaya. That happens with the removal of sakkaya ditthi. 
      • Simultaneously, one can see that even the cultivation of “good gati” is not enough to end the samsaric suffering. But a Sotapanna still has the perception (sanna) that sensory pleasures are worthwhile pursuing.
      • Thus, a Sotapanna‘s next task is to get rid of that distorted perception (viparita sanna) by further contemplating the anicca, dukkha, and anatta nature (Tilakkhana).

      3. Therefore, it is imperative to understand the Four Noble Truths/Paticca Samuppada/Tilakkhana.

      Now, we can take a look at the questions raised by Christian. 

      4. The main question was: How do we understand how a gandhabba instantly transforms into a different realm? Why doesn’t it happen when gandhabba is in a dense physical body? The answer below should also explain the other comments by Christian:

      • For example, the girl in the video committed the crime and nothing happened until she died. She may have been thinking about committing it for a while. So, she had the “bad mindset” for may be even days. She may have been alive for many minutes, even after the baby died. 
      • The reason is the following: The dense physical body “protects” the gandhabba from being subjected to that transformation. Until the physical body dies, the gandhabba is safe even after committing an ānantarika kamma, like killing a parent. That same mechanism keeps an Arahant alive until the death of the physical body; once the physical body of the Arahant dies, the gandhabba comes out and instantly dies. Thus, even if that Arahant had many years of kammic energy left in the “human bhava,” the gandhabba cannot survive.
      • An analogy is as follows: Think about a heater coil immersed in water. Even if the coil is heated until the water boils, it will not burn. However, if the coil is taken out of the water, it will burn. The fine/subtle body of the gandhabba cannot survive a “transformational event” like the emergence of an “apayagami gati” or “bhava ending attainment of Arahanthood.”

      P.S.

      5. Therefore, the observed phenomenon does not involve anything else, like the brain in a physical body slowing down the response to a sensory event or anything else. The main point can also be stated as follows: 

      • In Paticca Samuppada, bhava changes instantly according to the “upadana paccaya bhava” step. 
      • However, as long as the physical body is alive, it does not allow the gandhabba to undergo the transformation to the “new bhava.” The physical body may undergo some change that may last for a while (“temporary bhavanga” as explained in “Bhava and Bhavaṅga – Simply Explained!“), but the gandhabba is safe. 
      • For example, consider person X killing a parent. The mindset of X at that moment (“temporary bhavanga“) is that of an animal or a “hell being.” X’s physical body may undergo some change, especially the anger showing up in the face. But that mindset will calm down, and after a while, it will get back to the “temporary bhavanga” state. Now, if someone else killed X moments after X killed the parent, X’s gandhabba will come out of the dead body and be “burned,” and the rebirth in an apaya will take place.
      • Now, consider the girl in the video. If that girl survived the crude abortion attempt, she would have lived a normal human life and also would have remained in the human bhava. The punishment for that kamma would have appeared at the end of her human bhava.
      • It is good to contemplate the above-discussed situations to make sure to understand the issues involved.

      Please feel free to ask questions if the above is not clear. 

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    • #46298
      Gad
      Participant

      Sir Lal, are the people who say that suicide is bad and leads to apayas telling the truth? A person may commit suicide because of a strong emotion such as anger and grief.

      However, puthujunas who lay down their lives for the sake of others do punna kamma.

       

      Ariyas can do this without consequence. Anathapindaka’s daughter was a sakadāgāmi. She committed suicide by starving herself to death. She had not found a husband. After her death, she took birth again, in the Tusita paradise.

      Anathapindika

    • #46306
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Yes. As we discussed above, the decision to take one’s own life is made with a high dose of “dosa.”

      • If one is successful and dies before that anger dies out, one will likely be reborn in an apaya corresponding to that mindset.

      Regarding Anathapindaka’s daughter (a Sakadāgāmi, per the link you gave,) the description there is as follows: 

      “Anathapindika had four children, three daughters and a son. Two of the daughters, Little Subhadda and Big Subhadda, were steeped in the Dhamma like their father and had attained stream-entry. And just as they took after their father in spiritual matters, so they did in worldly affairs; they were both happily married. But the youngest daughter, Sumana, surpassed even the rest of her family in her deep wisdom. Upon hearing the Buddha, she had quickly attained the second step of purification, becoming a once-returner. She did not marry, but not because she had renounced marriage. In fact, when she saw the happiness of her two sisters, she became sad and lonely. Her spiritual strength did not suffice to overcome her depression. To the deep sorrow of her family, she wasted away, eating nothing, starving to death. She was reborn in the Tusita heaven,.. “

      It is difficult to assess her state of mind at the time of death, but a Sakadāgāmi can never have the mind of a being in an apaya

      • Suicide done with proper understanding is a different case. There is an account in the Tipitaka about an Arahant who took his life with the approval of the Buddha. Arahants live only for the benefit of others, to explain Dhamma to others. If the Arahant is in deep pain due to an unrecoverable illness, there is no point in living and undergoing such pain.
      • Another example is Ven. Moggallana. He was beaten to death by a group of hired killers. Ven. Moggalana escaped twice from them using his supernormal powers. But when they came for him the third time, he realized that he was destined to die that way due to a strong kamma vipaka. Thus, he gave up and accepted being beaten to death without an angry state of mind.
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      Gad
      • #46624
        Gad
        Participant

        Sir Lal: “Suicide done with proper understanding is a different case. There is an account in the Tipitaka about an Arahant who took his life with the approval of the Buddha. Arahants live only for the benefit of others, to explain Dhamma to others. If the Arahant is in deep pain due to an unrecoverable illness, there is no point in living and undergoing such pain.”

        My response: It was the venerable Vakkali sir VAKKALI SUTTA: DISCOURSE TO VENERABLE VAKKALI

         

    • #46313
      angwllm
      Participant

      It has been mentioned that if lay disciples, upasakas were to attain arahant stage within seven days, he needs to go into monkhood.

      The lay arahant will go into parinivana after seven days.

      Venerable Lal, I hope you can elaborate more on the above.

      With Metta.

    • #46314
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Yes. That is another aspect of this issue. Thank you!

      A lay person cannot “bear” the Arahanthood. If a lay person attains Arahanthood, he/she MUST become a bhikkhu/bhikkhuni within seven days. 

      • There are several instances of lay people attaining Arahanthood, but they died the same day for other reasons. King Suddodhana attained Arahantship on his deathbed and passed away soon after due to that illness. Both King Pukkusāti and the ascetic Bahiya Daruchiriya attained Arahanthood and were killed by two cows immediately afterward.
      • I am not aware of a lay Arahant dying after seven days due to not becoming a bhikkhu.
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    • #46315
      Gad
      Participant

      In one of your posts, you also emphasized that devas and Brahmas who reach the arahant stage automatically enter Parinibbānna. Their bodies are too thin to live as arahants.

      In the point 14.

      “Thus, the fine body (trija kaya) of the gandhabba cannot “bear” the energy associated with an Arahant. See “gandhabba (Manomaya Kaya).”

      In the same way, the invisible, subtle “bodies” of a Deva or a Brahma also cannot sustain the mind of an Arahant. Thus, if a Deva or a Brahma attains the Arahanthood, they will immediately attain Parinibbāna. In other words, there are no living Arahants in Deva or Brahma realms.”

      Nibbāna “Exists”, but Not in This World

       

      To draw another parallel. In the suttas, there are stories where Lord Buddha and other arahants transfer merit to apaya beings like petas (hungry ghosts). As a result of these transfers of merit, they die and are reborn as devas.

      AN INTRODUCTION TO PETAVATTHU: STORIES OF HUNGRY GHOSTS

      ARAHANT IN THERAVADA BUDDHISM.

      “it is reported that because the lay life could not properly support the life of an Arahant, one who becomes an Arahant as a lay person should ordain as a monk on the same day or pass away”

      THE MINISTER WHO BECAME AN ARAHANT AS A LAY PERSON

    • #46625
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Gad wrote: “it is reported that because the lay life could not properly support the life of an Arahant, one who becomes an Arahant as a lay person should ordain as a monk on the same day or pass away.”

      • That comment (and the last of his links) refers to the account of Santati, who was a layperson when he attained the Arahanthood.

      1. What I have heard (from Waharaka Thero) is what I wrote in my previous comment: “A lay person cannot “bear” the Arahanthood. If a lay person attains Arahanthood, he/she MUST become a bhikkhu/bhikkhuni within seven days.”

      • However, I have not seen a Tipitaka reference for whether the time limit is a day or seven days. 

      2. The account of Santati that I heard from Waharaka Thero was a bit different than what was described in Gad’s reference. 

      • What I heard is that Santati was traveling on an elephant’s back. The Buddha saw that he had only a couple of hours to live and had the capability to attain Arahanthood. So he went to meet Santati and delivered a short discourse while Santati was riding the elephant. When Santati attained Arahant (while on the elephant), the Buddha told him, “You have a short time to live. You should do something to let those watching know that you are now an Arahant.”
      • That is when Ven. Santati performed a “miracle.” He rose to the air and made his body burn while in the air as he was passing away.
      • In this account, he did not die because of the time limit for a “lay Arahant.” He was going to die at that time anyway.

      3. As far as I know, there is no Tipitaka reference other than the Dhammapada verse (without further explanation.) It seems that there are different explanations by different people. However, it is possible that there is a more detailed account in the Tipitaka, possibly in the Vinaya Pitaka, that we are not aware of.

      The verse is at “Santatimahāmattavatthu

      • Note the title of the verse: “Santatimahāmattavatthu.”
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      Gad
      • #46627
        Gad
        Participant

        Yes, the deadline is 7 days. I think drarisworld made a mistake.

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