[pathfinder]

If I understand correctly from Lal’s explanation, kayanupassana is to control our actions, vedananupassana is to control our reaction to vedana, cittanupassana is to control our reaction to the immoral thoughts, and dhammanupassana is to learn the dhamma. (Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta – Structure)

However I want to raise up the several issues:

1. The currrent english translation (Pāli Tipiṭaka – English Publication – Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta) provides a more “observer” approach, eg observing how vedana arise in vedananupassana, observing how thoughts arise in cittanupassana. It did not say that we should stop it, but just observe. Here you could say the translation is not accurate, if you are able to break it down and show that the sutta does indeed say in the 2 sections that we are to control our reactions to these arising vedana and thoughts, please let me know.
2. The structure of kayanupassana is as follows:
   Anāpānapabba (section on “ānapāna“) 
   Iriyāpathapabba (section on postures) Kāyānupassanā – Section on Postures (Iriyāpathapabba) The “Iriyāpathapabba” section of the Kāyānupassanā in the Satipaṭṭhāna sutta is all about how to abstain from committing an immoral act AT ANY TIME. 
   Sampajānapabba (section on habits)  Kāyānupassanā – The Section on Habits (Sampajānapabba) “The key point is ultimately to become “sensitized” to each and every action that we take thus leading to the formation of “good habits”, i.e., to become a ”sampajannō”.
   Patikulamanasikārapabba (section on contemplation of body parts)
   Dhatumanasikāra (section on contemplation of elements)
   Navasivathikapabba (section on contemplation of the decay of a body)

If kayanupassana is about controlling our actions, then why are there the sections on patikulamanasikāra pabba, dhātumanasikāra pabba, and navasivatika pabba in the same kayanupassana section? Why isit that half a section is about controlling our actions and creating good habits, the other half is just observing the body? In the tipitaka the suttas are linked very well and easily with one another. In this sense, though the translation by “Pali Tipitaka” may have some errors, it is more consistent because the first 3: kaya, vedana, cittanupassana are all about observing only. I think the general idea is to see the body as it is, eg observe the breath, observe how it moves, observe what it is made of, observe how it decays, and then realise that the body is like this. Same goes for vedana and cittanupassana where you only observe and find out what it is. And then after observing it becomes clearer in dhammanupassana, where the Buddha elaborates on the 4 noble truths. I believe there is value in this interpretation of observing, because if you see the body as it is, you can reduce attachment for it. Same for vedana, you can observe the different types of vedana arising, and for throughts, you can observe thoughts that arise with or without craving (“Here, monks, a monk understands properly mind with craving as mind with craving, he understands properly mind free from craving as mind free from craving”). And through observing, you can see the body, vedana and thoughts as it is. Of course the observing will be of more value if it is done with anicca dukkha and anatta. I think there is still value in this translation, and we should not reject it.

3. I know that Lal has made several posts about why anapana is not breath. I agree that breathing in and out alone cannot lead one to an arahant. However, I want to raise the following issue: “Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu araññagato vā rukkhamūlagato vā suññāgāragato vā nisīdati pallaṅkaṃ ābhujitvā, ujuṃ kāyaṃ paṇidhāya, parimukhaṃ satiṃ upaṭṭhapetvā. So sato va assasati, sato va passasati.” – This appears in both the Anāpānapabba segment of kayanupassana, as well as the Ānāpānassatisutta.  In 7. What is Ānāpāna?” Lal: Let good thoughts grow, and discard evil thoughts. Very simple.”

It seems strange for this to appear in the kayanupassana segment. If it is about thoughts then it should at least be in cittanupassana! However, I cannot give a good answer on what is a better alternative, just raising this doubt.

4. The sutta only clarifies terms in great detail in dhammanupassana: “And what, monks, is old age? If there is old age for all kinds of beings in whatever kind of existence, their getting frail and decrepit, the breaking [of their teeth], their becoming grey and wrinkled, the running down of their life span, the deterioration of their sense faculties – this, monks, is called old age.” He even clarifies a simple thing like old age! Yet, he did not clarify what is are the good and bad habits or thoughts we are supposed to keep and discard, but in Lal’s interpretation we are supposed to do that. Which is why I think the “observe only” interpretation makes more sense because there is no judgement passed by the individual, just observe. It also makes structural sense because the sutta increase in complexity – from observing the body, then vedana, then thoughts, then learning about the dhamma.

I want to make the disclaimer that I do not disagree with whatever Lal has posted, I have read the posts and they make sense, but I find myself having the above thoughts which contradict the posts as well.

[Lal]

Under #1: From your reference “Pāli Tipiṭaka – English Publication – Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta” I am quoting the following:

• At the beginning, “Ānāpānapabba” is translated as “Section on Respiration.” In that section, it says: “I am breathing in a deep breath.” Breathing out a deep breath, he understands properly: “I am breathing out a deep breath.” Breathing in a shallow breath, he understands properly: “I am breathing in a shallow breath.” Breathing out a shallow breath, he understands properly: “I am breathing out a shallow breath.” 
• I don’t think we can take that translation seriously. What do you think?

You asked: “If kayanupassana is about controlling our actions, then why are there the sections on patikulamanasikāra pabba, dhātumanasikāra pabba, and navasivatika pabba in the same kayanupassana section?”

• That is a good question.
• The word “kaya” (“collection of parts”) can mean the physical body as well as the panca upadanakkhandha (PUK) (commonly translated as “grasping five aggregates.”)
• However, in most suttas, by “kaya” the Buddha referred to PUK. 
• As you pointed out, a small part of the Satipatthana Sutta is allocated to patikulamanasikāra pabba, dhātumanasikāra pabba, and navasivatika pabba (focused on the physical body.)
• As I have mentioned many times, a word can have several meanings, depending on the context. With practice, one can determine which meaning should be used in a given context. 

You wrote (under #2): “In this sense, though the translation by “Pali Tipitaka” may have some errors, it is more consistent because the first 3: kaya, vedana, cittanupassana are all about observing only. I think the general idea is to see the body as it is, eg observe the breath, observe how it moves, observe what it is made of, observe how it decays, and then realise that the body is like this. Same goes for vedana and cittanupassana where you only observe and find out what it is.”

• Satipatthana is definitely not about just observing.
• It is about “being mindful” about how (i) the PUK arises, (ii) how vedana (and sanna) turn into “mind-made vedana” or “samphassa-ja-vedana“, (iii) how citta (thoughts) involving raga, dosa, moha arise, and (iv) making connections to above with Paticca Samuppada, anicca, dukkha, anatta, etc. (Of course, it also involves controlling one’s actions, speech, and thoughts based on that understanding.)
• Those are  kayanupassana, vedananupassana, cittanupassana, and dhammanupassana.

Under #3: “It seems strange for this to appear in the kayanupassana segment. If it is about thoughts then it should at least be in cittanupassana!”

• That verse involves “kaya” as panca upadanakkhandha (PUK) per the above.
• Here, “So sato va assasati, sato va passasati” can be taken as “Let good thoughts grow, and discard evil thoughts” only in a simple explanation. 
• When I wrote those posts, I had not explained how PUK is initiated by sensory inputs. I have started explaining this in recent posts: “Meditation – Deeper Aspects.”
• I will start writing more posts on Satipatthana after completing that series of posts.   
• Since vedana and citta are also included in PUK, kayanupassana actually includes how cittas arise with different types of vedana. As we know, PUK includes rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara, and vinnana. This is a deeper aspect that I will write about later.

Under #4: 

I have not discussed dhammanupassana specifically in that series of posts. 

• However, my posts on Paticca Samuppada address most of those issues. 
• What you quoted, ” And what, monks, is old age? If there is old age for all kinds of beings in whatever kind of existence, their getting frail and decrepit, the breaking [of their teeth], their becoming grey and wrinkled, the running down of their life span, the deterioration of their sense faculties – this, monks, is called old age” explains jati in Paticca Samuppada.
•  I have discussed Paticca Samuppada in detail. See, for example, “Paṭicca Samuppāda in Plain English” and “Paṭicca Samuppāda During a Lifetime.”

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dosakkhayo

[pathfinder]

Lal: “I don’t think we can take that translation seriously. What do you think?

I agree that it is not 100% correct. But I also believe that we cannot rule out observing the breath as a tool to gain insight. For example, one can observe that it is the body that automatically breathes, not the mind that is controlling it. Hence it will help you not take the body as my own. This is similar to the rest of the kaya section where we contemplate what happens to the body after death, what the body is actually made of. One can also observe the anicca and fleeting nature of each breath, rising and passing

Lal: As you pointed out, a small part of the Satipatthana Sutta is allocated to patikulamanasikāra pabba, dhātumanasikāra pabba, and navasivatika pabba (focused on the physical body.)

Length wise it is more than half of the kaya segment! In fact Iriyāpathapabbaṃ and Sampajānapabbaṃ are one of the shortest.

Lal: The word “kaya” (“collection of parts”) can mean the physical body as well as the panca upadanakkhandha (PUK) (commonly translated as “grasping five aggregates.”)

I agree that the word kaya has multiple meanings. However, why would the Buddha/ Arahant council use 2 different meanings of kaya in the same kayanupassana section, without clarifying that they are switching meanings? It spells a recipe for misunderstanding. If we take the later 3 sections to be at least half of kayanupassana, then observing what the body is made of, how the body is discarded, is an important part of kayanupassana.

Which is why I think an interpretation of the Ānāpānapabbaṃ can be observing how the breath arises, falls, with intention of the fleeting nature of each breath, and observe what cause it to arise and fall. Iriyāpathapabbaṃ can be observing how the body is like at every stationary posture, Sampajānapabbaṃ can be observing how the body is like at every movement (whether he is looking straight ahead or looking sideways, he does so with constant thorough understanding of impermanence; while he is bending or stretching, he does so with constant thorough understanding of impermanence;) – I do not think impermance is the right word, but at least there is some insight to be gained from observing how the body moves. Then we move on to Paṭikūlamanasikārapabbaṃ, Dhātumanasikārapabbaṃ and Navasivathikapabbaṃ, about what the body is made of and how it is discarded. Here is a proposed, consistent flow of intepreting kaya as the body

Lal: Satipatthana is definitely not about just observing.

• It is about “being mindful” about how (i) the PUK arises, (ii) how vedana (and sanna) turn into “mind-made vedana” or “samphassa-ja-vedana“, (iii) how citta (thoughts) involving raga, dosa, moha arise, and (iv) making connections to above with Paticca Samuppada, anicca, dukkha, anatta, etc. (Of course, it also involves controlling one’s actions, speech, and thoughts based on that understanding.)

Yes, I agree with this. However I want to question the part on whether the focus is to gain insight on how all these things arise, rather than controlling actions speech and thoughts. From earlier discussion, it seems that this is not the focus.

Lal: Since vedana and citta are also included in PUK, kayanupassana actually includes how cittas arise with different types of vedana. As we know, PUK includes rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara, and vinnana. This is a deeper aspect that I will write about later.

Let’s say kaya does mean PUK in this context. It could be possible, but it seems doesnt seem structurally logical for the sutta. If we take the very first part of the sutta, to be to observe “how cittas arise with different types of vedana” , then the sutta already starts off with a complex and deep concept! Then it moves on a relatively simpler concept, eg observing what the body is made of and how it is discarded, and then a little more complex on how feelings arise, then more complex on how thoughts arise, and contemplation of the dhamma as the most complex. Suttas tend to go from easy concepts to complex ones as we read on, why throw in this complex concept encompassing everything at the start, and sudden drop in complexity, and then gradually increase in complexity again? Again, if we take kaya to be just the body, and we start by observing the breath first, then stationary postures, then actions, then what the body is made, how it is discarded, it is starting the sutta off easy and slowly increase in complexity.

[Lal]

“But I also believe that we cannot rule out observing the breath as a tool to gain insight.”

• OK. I have no more comments.

[pathfinder]

Thank you. I am not particularly attached to my above views, I just recently thought of these points which contradict my current understanding from the posts, but i think they are worth being raised.

If my suggestion of breath meditation throws you off, we can also reject this interpretation first. I know that this site strongly discourages it, so let’s leave it blank for now, and use the interpretation provided on this site. There is no need to provide an alternative yet, we can just consider the issues. I do still see value in contemplating the above points about the meaning of kaya and the structure of the sutta in creating a more precise interpretation of this sutta.

If you or anyone has comments on the other points, please do not hold back and speak your mind. 

[TripleGemStudent]

Hope everyone is doing well and with their practice.

“I think the general idea is to see the body as it is, eg observe the breath, observe how it moves, observe what it is made of, observe how it decays, and then realise that the body is like this.”

One doesn’t necessary need to observe the breath to observe the body . . . Observing or focusing on the breath as meditation is a vayo kasina or 1 % of the full Buddhist dhatu meditation. One needs to contemplate / comprehend all the 4 dhatus and not just with vayo ( air)

In the sutta’s the formula for any dhatu meditation is always  Etaṁ mama, esohamasmi, eso me attā’ti in the end. Maybe I might have forgotten or missed, but from all the different Buddhism teachers / teachings I have come across teaching others to focus on the breath, I have yet see any teacher that teaches breath meditation as Etaṁ mama, esohamasmi, eso me attā’ti. There’s more things I can say about this, but don’t currently have the time to type all the things I want to say.     

“The body is like this” is applying the tilakkhana to the six internal sense spheres and the six external sense sphere. 

See the connection with the sections Kāyānupassanāpaṭikūlamanasikārapabba, Kāyānupassanādhātumanasikārapabba, Kāyānupassanānavasivathikapabba. Internally, externally, both internally and externally . . .  

Here’s another take / teaching on Anapanasati / Satipatthana.

Ana pana sati samadhi

I linked the video to the anapanasati / satipatthana series of video, but I would also recommend to watch the earlier video’s / teachings in the series which helps to gain a more complete / better understanding relating to the teachings in the video linked.

All the best.

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pathfinder

[Waisaka]

Hi all, with Metta

I remember some time ago, before finding Mr. LAL writing.

I used to think and practice meditation paying attention to long and short breaths, paying attention and ignoring without being labeled on the phenomena of thoughts and feelings, very focused, Can remove inner dirt?? 

but it was incomplete and there was something missing for me.

1. I thought I would not be able to focus on social life and become like a robot because I was too mindful, paying attention to every movement of namarupa.

2. Kilesa was only suppressed but GATI did not change.

Apparently meditation is not only paying attention/observing but realizing nama rupa throwing away the bad and taking the good.

For example, when there is a moment of vaci sankhara starting to lead to something negative, immediately realize it, reflect on the consequences of its karma, and tilakkhana.

My mind is now more flexible when negative things start to arise (realize, observe, get rid of).

 This first realization process is indeed difficult and will be easy if practiced continuously (meditation on breathing for a while until calm then change to tilakkhana contemplation)

This slowly changes one’s GATI, and at a certain level of understanding there will be a moment of realizing magga and phala, the effect of phala will be seen slowly.

As you continue to practice dhamma, and increasingly realize the pancakhanda, slowly your GATI continues to change until there is no bhava that is taken, for to be born in the 31 realms (nibbana)

I don’t know too many suttas.

The essence that I have captured so far.. Understand tilakkhana with the perspective of the 31 realms (¡) -> understand paticcasamuppada (¡¡) -> change gati (noble 8-fold path) (¡¡¡¡) -> Nibbana (¡¡¡)

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pathfinder

[skywander]

On the observe vs controlling. Observe and controlling in current Theravada are thought as something opposite, but I feel they can be read as the same verb – at least in most places. One has more passive connotation, the other more active. You can read it as “observe, and control if needed”. For control you need to observe. By properly observing you have [yoniso attention + sati] according to the teachings – and thus already kind of controlling what you observe.

Using the simile of the horses and the charioteer that Buddha used, like in the dhammada ch 7, that talks about arahants, verse 5 “he, whose sense are pacified like horses well-controlled by the charioteer …“. When one is in the first stages of the gradual training, during sattipatthana, the charioteer will have to exert a high degree of control at all times, the mind and body are wild, therefore he will need to strongly pull the reins over and over again. When one is really advanced in the training, the charioteer just need to keep watch over the tamed and pacified mind and body, holding the reins with a relaxed grip.

Even in daily talk, “control the kid!” and “observe the kid!” has the same meaning: in both phrases you are being commanded to watch that the kid behaves properly and is safe. If the kid is wild, you may need to hold the hand and control it directly. If the kid is well behaved, you can let him go free, and just observe he doesn’t go further from you. Since most of those kind of instructions are delivered to bhikkus, my guess is that observe is used, they already got a base. However, over the canon you can see the Buddha using “observe the mind”, “keep watch over the mind”, “control the mind”, and similar to refer to the very same fact that one must take care that the mind behaves according the dhamma.

 

On the breath. I feel that use the breath can be useful, not for the insight it provides, but because is a kind gross “accelerator pedal” which is tied to the mind. “The mind is extremely subtle and difficult to grasp, alighting on whatever it pleases. It is good to tame the mind, A tamed mind brings happiness” (dhammapada). I feel that the main benefit of watching the breath is to help oneself to not lose sight of the citta and the thoughts that arise and ceases without being dragged by them. In other words, to help you to recognize the working of the mind. Not sure what Lal would think.

_/|\_

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pathfinder

[Lal]

I will say three things to consider:

1. Keeping the mind focused on the breath (or a water bowl, ball of clay, etc., as in mundane versions of kasina meditation) can stop it from wandering into sensual, angry, or ignorant thoughts. The latter three things cause a mind to be agitated and stressful.

• Therefore, I agree that forcefully keeping the mind on a “neutral object” will stop the mind’s agitation and have a calming effect (Samatha.) 
• If one lives a moral, simple life (i.e., abstain from akusala kamma over a long time) while simultaneously engaging in such mundane techniques (breath, kasina), one can even attain “mundane jhanas.” 
• That is what ancient yogis did. They went deep into jungles (to be away from women and other sensual attractions), lived simple lives, and cultivated anariya jhana using the breath or mundane kasina techniques. So, they will be reborn in a Brahma realm and live a peaceful life there. But at the end of that lifetime, they will return to kama loka and can be reborn in the apayas. So, it is a temporary solution. 

2. The above procedure cannot cultivate the wisdom (panna) necessary to attain any magga phala. 

• I would love for anyone to explain how that could be possible. 

3. Focusing the mind on examining Dhamma concepts will address both of the above issues. This is called “insight meditation” or Vipassanā.

• It will keep the mind away from sensual, angry, or ignorant thoughts and help to calm it (Samatha).
• It will cultivate wisdom (panna) that will remove ingrained defilements (samyojana/anusaya) from the mind and lead to magga phala.
• With the cultivation of panna, one’s mind automatically abstains from akusala kamma. Thus, one may automatically enter Ariya jhana with this practice. Even in the absence of entering any jhana, one is certain to attain magga phala.
• However, the time taken will depend on each person. Do not expect quick results.

__________

The goal of a Buddhist is to attain magga phala and end the suffering in the rebirth process! 

• Regarding #2, some say, “Do the breath meditation to calm the mind,” and then do Vipassanā.
• Of course, that will work if they understand how to do Vipassanā. But my observation (observing those who attend meditation retreats like Goenka-type) is that they never do real Vipassanā. Most of such programs lead to only Samatha. Does anyone know of someone who has attained a magga phala by attending such “meditation retreats”?

P.S. It is quite likely that anyone who translates  “Ānāpānapabba” as “Section on Respiration” will not know how to do Vipassanā!

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dosakkhayo, TripleGemStudent, TripleGemStudent, Waisaka, skywander, skywander

[skywander]

Lal wrote:

3. Focusing the mind on examining Dhamma concepts will address both of the above issues. This is called “insight meditation” or Vipassanā.

I agree, yet, for some of us, the concentration needed to successfully do vipassana is out of our skills. I will share my experience.

As a side note: more than a year ago I did a Goenka 10 day retreat. From the fifth day it was really hard for me. I probably had the same “struggling” meditations hours than “successful” ones. Nevertheless the calm effect I’ve got were really noticeable, and more lasting I imagined. This was not due to the vipassana, but the fact that the mind rested for 10 days, without engaging in activities or speech. The insight I got from the retreat was close to zero. I experienced a lot the fact that in no two consecutive moments you never really feel the same sensations in the body, and even a persistent 20 minutes pain can disappear for no good reason. But, to be honest, I already knew, and experiencing such things, as far as I’m concerned, didn’t bring me anything. After the retreat, I did not practice the Goenka Vipassana, not even once, nor the watching the sensations at the tip of the nose, the Goenka anapana. I must say the organization was perfect, and they delivered exactly what they promise in their website – which nowadays it is already a big deal.

After the retreat I investigated a bit, since I knew almost nothing about buddhist meditation or vipassana. In Burmese, Goenka retreats are not that popular. The most popular meditation style seems to be the vipassana method taught by Mogok Sayadaw. Lal, do you know about Mogok? It is hard to find material in English. It seems he teaches legit vipassana – but I can’t asses it. I read one book that covered in brief their entry level 10 day retreats – and it was one of the most useful reads I’ve got about meditation. One of the peculiarities, of the Mogok meditation teaching, is that prior any meditation they teach the core of the Buddha Dhamma. Not merely the four noble truths and the three marks, but the path, the hindrances, the seven factors, the PS, a simplified list of the 52 cetasika of the Abhidhamma, and more. Then the meditator practice vipassana, is asked to pay attention to the citta and dhammas that come up, and recognize the arising and passing aways of the cetasikas (but not labeling a la Mahasi).

_______

The problem I have when I try to do real vipassana is that by examining citta and dhammas my mind ends lost in itself. The only way for me to be able to consistently do real vipassana and keeping right yoniso attention, is by putting distance between the observer mind and the observed mind. Otherwise the mind collapses on the mind and I lose the recollection/mindfulness/sati. The only solution I know is to put a neutral object between the observer mind and the observed mind.

The two objects that work for me is the breath or the feeling of the earth element (this is, the pressure I feel in the feet against the soil when walking, or the legs and the soil when sitting). The only purpose of also paying attention to the breath/earth along the mind, is the same that if I were to put a paper in front of my eyes with the phrase “keep being sati of the mind” written on it. Without such physical reminder, I lose the sati, my mind drifts away from meditation, and eventually I found myself daydreaming with no direction, sometimes about mundane things, another times about stuff related of the teachings themselves.

The earth element has the good qualities that it is gross and almost impossible to lose it. The breath element has the good qualities that helps me to understand more clearly the rythm and doings of the mind, however, if I am doing some activities I tend to lose the breath too, even the breath is too of a subtle object for me.

_/|\_

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pathfinder, Jittananto

[Lal]

Skywander wrote: “I agree, yet, for some of us, the concentration needed to successfully do vipassana is out of our skills.”

• Each person can do Vipassana at their level of understanding.
• The simplest way is to read a post from this website or listen to a verbal discourse while paying complete attention. The engagement and interest will grow if one starts grasping even a single concept. 
• I know of many people who listen to discourses while doing household work. Others read posts on this website without paying much attention or not reading the suggested links. Those are bad habits.
• At the beginning of numerous suttas the Buddha started with the following verse: “taṁ suṇātha, sādhukaṁ manasikarotha, bhāsissāmī” which means, “Listen and pay full attention, I will speak.”

___________

Skywander wrote: “The problem I have when I try to do real vipassana is that by examining citta and dhammas my mind ends lost in itself.”

• This is the same issue as above. 
• Vipassana can be done while sitting at a table reading a post on the computer. Just make sure to pay complete attention. 
• Initially, it is best to pick a post (or section) where you have some understanding. Pick a time when distractions are minimal. 
• If it helps, you could ” watch the breath” for a few minutes to calm the mind. People in Asian countries start a meditation session by offering flowers/lighting a candle to the Buddha and reciting a few verses. That helps calm the mind, too. 
• As you make progress, you will be able to sit somewhere and contemplate a Dhamma concept. That is the Vipassana I do every day. Whenever needed, I get up to look up a sutta or do an online search. The goal is to increase one’s understanding, not to be forced to sit like a statue. 
• Once getting some traction, this will become a habit. I wake up thinking about a Dhamma concept and go to sleep thinking about a Dhamma concept. Then I do that throughout the day too. Of course, not everyone can do the latter. I can do that since I am retired!

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dosakkhayo, skywander, 4jhana, TripleGemStudent, Waisaka, Jittananto

[TripleGemStudent]

One of the forum member mentioned:

“For example, when there is a moment of vaci sankhara starting to lead to something negative, immediately realize it, reflect on the consequences of its karma, and tilakkhana.”

I thought what’s said was simple, practical and another way to say how anapana sati / satipatthana can be practiced / carried out. I would also like to add  “not just realizing something negative”, but also positive and neutral. Or sukha (sōmanassa), dukkha ( dōmanassa), adukhamasukha (upekkha) using the teachings on the “all” (sabba) to reflect / contemplate on the tilakkhana nature of what has arisen and know it’s cessation. If one notices they got attached through akusala-mula p.s. or from what Lal mentioned, “panca upadanakkhandha (PUK) (commonly translated as “grasping five aggregates.)” and other teachings on how one get’s attached. Put into the practice of nirodha which is the Noble 8 Fold Path to the attachment (avija, tanha, upadana, so on) process / condition or at all times. We should also reflect on the consequences of those karma or the consequences of our thoughts, speech and actions. To see if it’s in line with the vinaya, doing what we can not to carry out the dasa akusala which does harm to us, others and the world and we go into existential debt. Instead practice the habit of transferring of merits, strive to cultivate kusala, put dhamma and noble 8 fold path into practice.

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pathfinder, skywander, Waisaka

[pathfinder]

Thank you TripleGemStudent, Waisaka, Skywander and Lal for sharing. I agree with your posts thus far, and they are very helpful for me.

TripleGemStudent: In the sutta’s the formula for any dhatu meditation is always  Etaṁ mama, esohamasmi, eso me attā’ti in the end. 

This is interesting and it makes sense to me. could you share a sutta reference?

—-

I notice that we have somewhat different opinions regarding breath meditation. Instead of focusing on that, I hope I can point you towards the following issues instead, and see if they are valid.

The issue I want to clarify is about the Ānāpānapabbaṃ section within kayanupassana section in Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta.

 Kāyānupassanā

1. Ānāpānapabbaṃ
2. Iriyāpathapabbaṃ
3. Sampajānapabbaṃ
4. Paṭikūlamanasikārapabbaṃ
5. Dhātumanasikārapabbaṃ
6. Navasivathikapabbaṃ

I am taking the meaning of anapana from this post: 7. What is Ānāpāna?

Issue 1: Dual meanings of Kaya

Let’s say a basketball coach is writing a book. He says

“Players, this is a guaranteed way to be a good basketball player.”

The outline of the book is as follows:

Chapter 1: Form

Chapter 2: Mindset

Chapter 3: Strategy

Chapter 4: Basketball philosophy

In chapter 1 he talks about the different forms: shooting form, running form, dribbling form. In this case form refers to something like posture. Then in the same chapter 1, he talks about how to form a strategy. Would the coach write the book like that?

Saying that kaya means PUK (pancauppadanakhanda) in one part of kayanupassana section, and kaya means the body in the other part of the section, is similar to the simile I gave above. I am not saying the same word cannot have 2 diff meanings together. Eg “The cook will season the dish this season” However, if you have a chapter about something, eg basketball form chapter, kaya chapter, I find it strange that “form” or “kaya” will have 2 diff meanings in the same chapter.

Issue 2: Structure of sutta.

Using the simile of the basketball book:

Chapter 1: Form

Chapter 2: Mindset

Chapter 3: Strategy

Chapter 4: Basketball philosophy

 In Chapter 1 (Form) he says: You need to practice the good basketball habits, and discard the bad basketball habits. These habits refer to everything, eg habits for mindset, form and strategy. In the same chapter he talks about shooting form, running form and dribbling form. Why does he give this large overview of good and bad habits in chapter 1? It is understandable if he says it before chapter 1, as an overview, but saying within chapter 1 is strange.

Likewise, if you look at the sutta, Ānāpānapabbaṃ is within kayanupassana. If we take the meaning of anapana to be what is explained here (7. What is Ānāpāna?), then we have a problem – why does one part of the kaya section talk about keeping good and discarding bad, which is relatively broad based, and the other part talks about the body, which is more specific? It is like the coach in his form chapter talking about keeping good habits and discarding bad habits, and then talking about dribbling, shooting forms, within the same chapter about forms!

For now, I am not suggesting that we take anapana as breath/ respiration, but I would like to point out the above issues first if we take anapana to be what is mentioned here 7. What is Ānāpāna?. 

[Lal]

TripleGemStudent wrote: “I thought what’s said was simple, practical and another way to say how anapana sati / satipatthana can be practiced / carried out. I would also like to add  “not just realizing something negative”, but also positive and neutral. Or sukha (sōmanassa), dukkha ( dōmanassa), adukhamasukha (upekkha) using the teachings on the “all” (sabba) to reflect / contemplate on the tilakkhana nature of what has arisen and know it’s cessation.”

• This is a critical point to think about deeply.

1. A Paticca Samuppada process starts with a sensory input (arammana.) 

• An arammana leads to a sukha , dukkha , or adukhamasukha vedana first. This is the “bahidda vinnana” stage. Here, sukha and dukkha vedana arise ONLY due to the physical body. All other types (seeing, hearing, taste, etc.) only lead to adukhamasukha vedana. However, ALL kinds of arammana trigger “distorted sanna.”
• This “distorted sanna” gives a false perception” that sugar is sweet or a particular woman is attractive.
• That happens in the mind of anyone born a human. That set of “distorted sanna” is associated with any human body, and thus arises also in an Arahant.

2. In the next moment (within a split second), that “distorted sanna” triggers one’s samyojana/anusaya. 

• That leads to the arising of “mind-made vedana” which are sōmanassa, dōmanassa, or upekkha (neutral) and the initial attachment occurs at the “ajjhatta vinnana” stage.
• Then, the mind keeps attaching to that arammana to varying degrees, depending on the situation. 
• If the mind gets firmly attached, it gets to the “tanha paccaya upadana” stage, and that is when “new kamma” or “nava kamma” accumulation starts. 
• See “Ārammaṇa (Sensory Input) Initiates Critical Processes.” See the figure in #7.
• P.S. Since an Arahant has no samyojana/anusaya left, this step (and subsequent steps) DO NOT occur in an Arahant‘s mind. 

3. I have been trying to explain this concept because it is critically needed to cultivate Satipatthana Bhavana correctly. 

• In the “Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta (DN 22)” the following verse appears repeatedly: “Iti ajjhattaṁ vā kāye kāyānupassī viharati, bahiddhā vā kāye kāyānupassī viharati” in the Kāyānupassana section.
• Similarly, “Iti ajjhattaṁ vā vedanāsu vedanānupassī viharati, bahiddhā vā vedanāsu vedanānupassī viharati” appears in the Vedanānupassanā section (@11.11), “Iti ajjhattaṁ vā citte cittānupassī viharati, bahiddhā vā citte cittānupassī viharati” appears in the Cittānupassanā section (@12.18), and “Iti ajjhattaṁ vā dhammesu dhammānupassī viharati, bahiddhā vā dhammesu dhammānupassī viharati” appears in the Dhammānupassanā section.

4. Therefore, if anyone wants to understand the correct version of Satipaṭṭhāna, one needs to understand the concept of “distorted sanna,” bahidda vinnana, ajjhatta vinnana, etc.

• Of course, one needs to study this from the beginning in the “Sotapanna Stage via Understanding Perception (Saññā)” including the background material there.

5. Feel free to ask questions from any of those old posts. Please provide the link to the post and the relevant bullet number. 

• Note: My old posts in the “Maha Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta” section do not discuss these aspects. It is a “first-level” to be grasped. 

[pathfinder]

Lal: In the “Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta (DN 22)” the following verse appears repeatedly: “Iti ajjhattaṁ vā kāye kāyānupassī viharati, bahiddhā vā kāye kāyānupassī viharati” in the Kāyānupassana section.

Thank you, this clarifies a lot.

Qns 1:

Several translations interpret ajjhattaṁ and bahiddhā as internal and external, it could well be wrong. I know you have written posts about ajjhattaṁ and  bahidda vinnana (as you have given here: Purāna and Nava Kamma – Sequence of Kamma Generation, under “Bahidda and Ajjhatta Viññāṇa”). Could you explain how you managed to derive these meanings?

Qns 2:

Additionally, “Iti ajjhattaṁ vā kāye kāyānupassī viharati, bahiddhā vā kāye kāyānupassī viharati” also comes right after contemplating about the dead body, for example

“Again, monks, a monk, when he sees a dead body that has been thrown in a charnel-ground, being eaten by crows, being eaten by vultures, being eaten by falcons, being eaten by herons, being eaten by dogs, being eaten by tigers, being eaten by leopards, being eaten by jackals and being eaten by different kinds of creatures, regarding his own body considers thus: “Indeed, this body is of the same nature, it will become like that and cannot escape it.”, followed by Iti ajjhattaṃ vā kāye kāyānupassī viharati, bahiddhā vā kāye kāyānupassī viharati, ajjhattabahiddhā vā kāye kāyānupassī viharati,

What is the possible ajjhatam and bahidda part we are supposed to contemplate about the dead body?

Qns 3:

‘atthi kāyo’ ti vā panassa sati paccupaṭṭhitā hoti. This appears in all 6 contemplation of kayanupassana. Would you say “kāyo” here refers to 5 aggregates or the physical body?

Qns 4:

“samudayadhammānupassī vā kāyasmiṃ viharati, vayadhammānupassī vā kāyasmiṃ viharati, samudayavayadhammānupassī vā kāyasmiṃ viharati” – This is also repeated right after “Iti ajjhattaṃ vā kāye kāyānupassī viharati…”

I know it is something about rising (samudaya) and cessation (vaya) of phenomona. Howeverver, are we supposed to

1. Merely observe and note down that the phenomena is arising and falling. This could potentially cultivate anicca sanna. OR
2. Investigate why the phenomena is rising and falling? (This could potentially lead to further investigation of Paticca Samuppada)

I gave example 1 because it normally taught in Goekna Vipassana meditation.

[Lal]

I am afraid that there is more involved in the correct explanation of the “Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta (DN 22)”.

It is indeed the statement you made in:

“Qns 1:

Several translations interpret ajjhattaṁ and bahiddhā as internal and external, it could well be wrong.”

_________

Ajjhattaṁ and bahiddhā in this context do not refer to internal and external. In particular, the Pali word for external is Bāhira.

• You need to read the posts I suggested above to understand the meanings of ajjhatta and bahiddha.

_____________

I know that only a few people may have understood the correct meanings. 

• This is the first time that I pointed out the connection to the interpretation of the Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta (DN 22).
• I will try to write a post in two weeks to try to explain the connection a bit more. Next week’s post will focus on the connection between Buddha Dhamma and Vedic literature.

However, in the meantime, I will be happy to answer questions from those who may have at least partially understood the concepts of ajjhatta and bahiddha. 

[Lal]

Pathfinder raised the question about how the “Paṭikūlamanasikāra pabba” section of the “Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta (DN 22)” tallies with the concepts of ajjhatta kaya and bahiddha kaya. The English translation in the above link does not have the complete text for that section. So, I will use the link provided by Pathfinder: “Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta (DN 22).” I have linked to that section: Section D.

Let me try to explain briefly the connection. 

English translation of the first two paragraphs is correct: “Again, monks, a monk reflects on this very body, that is covered with skin and full of impurities of all kinds from the soles of the feet upwards and from the hair of the head downwards, considering thus: ‘In this body, there are hairs of the head, hairs of the skin, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, sinews, bones, marrow, kidney, heart, liver, pleura, spleen, lungs, intestines, mesentery, stomach with its contents, feces, bile, phlegm, pus, blood, sweat, fat, tears, grease, saliva, nasal mucus, synovial fluid and urine.’

Just as if there were a double-mouthed provision bag, full of various kinds of grains and seeds, such as hill-paddy, paddy, mung-beans, cow-peas, sesame seeds and husked rice, and as if there were a man with discerning eyes, who, after having opened that bag would examine the contents, saying: “This is hill-paddy, this is paddy, these are mung-beans, these are cow-peas, these are sesame seeds and this is husked rice”; in this same way, monks, a monk reflects on this very body, that is covered with skin and full of impurities of all kinds from the soles of the feet upwards and from the hair of the head downwards, considering thus: “In this body, there are hairs of the head, hairs of the skin, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, sinews, bones, marrow, kidney, heart, liver, pleura, spleen, lungs, intestines, mesentery, stomach with its contents, faeces, bile, phlegm, pus, blood, sweat, fat, tears, grease, saliva, nasal mucus, synovial fluid and urine.” 

______

The next paragraph in Pali: “Iti ajjhattaṃ vā kāye kāyānupassī viharati, bahiddhā vā kāye kāyānupassī viharati, ajjhattabahiddhā vā kāye kāyānupassī viharati, samudayadhammānupassī vā kāyasmiṃ viharati, vayadhammānupassī vā kāyasmiṃ viharati, samudayavayadhammānupassī vā kāyasmiṃ viharati, ‘atthi kāyo’ ti vā panassa sati paccupaṭṭhitā hoti. Yāvadeva ñāṇamattāya paṭissatimattāya anissito ca viharati, na ca kiñci loke upādiyati. Evaṃ pi kho, bhikkhave, bhikkhu kāye kāyānupassī viharati.”

• This is a highly condensed verse that needs to be explained in detail. But I will point out the essential aspects.

1. Here, “kāye kāyānupassī viharati” refers to “a part of the pancupadanakkhandha (PUK).”

• Kaya = PUK.  
• “kāye kāya” refers to other kāya within the PUK. It is the initial stage of PUK, which starts with an arammana. The bahiddha kaya arises first (with “distorted sanna“) and is immediately followed by the ajjhatta kaya (according to the samyojana/anusaya present in that mind.)

2. The next part, highlighted in blue above, refers to the root causes for the origination of our physical bodies (as explained in the first two paragraphs). 

• First, our physical bodies cannot arise without the mental body (gandhabba) arising at the cuti-patisandhi moment (when human existence was grasped.) 
• There, “samudaya dhamma” refers to examining the root causes of the arising (“samudaya”) of the mental body (gandhabba). To stop that from happening in the future (“vaya dhamma”) one needs to understand the roles of the bahiddha kaya and ajjhatta kaya.

3. The subsequent phrase “‘atthi kāyo’ ti vā panassa sati paccupaṭṭhitā hoti” requires a detailed explanation. 

• Once that process is understood, “Yāvadeva ñāṇamattāya paṭissatimattāya anissito ca viharati, na ca kiñci loke upādiyati.” OR (as the English translation correctly says): “In this way, he lives detached (from sensory attractions), without clinging to anything in the world, because now with cultivated wisdom (ñāṇamattāya) he realizes the root cause of craving is “distorted sanna.”

Of course, #3 requires a detailed explanation.

_______

This is why the Buddha stated, “My Dhamma has never been known to the world.” 

• This is really a deeper aspect, but if understood, it will help immensely to eliminate “kama raga” or “craving sensual pleasures.” 
• All our cravings are mind-made, based on “distorted sanna.“

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dosakkhayo, Waisaka

[TripleGemStudent]

Hello Pathfinder,

My observation, I really appreciate the effort and diligence you and others put into your discernment of the dhamma. May the Buddha Sasana help us all living beings on the path to Nibbana.  As well thank you and others for your patience and goodwill in your discussions.

“TripleGemStudent: In the sutta’s the formula for any dhatu meditation is always  Etaṁ mama, esohamasmi, eso me attā’ti in the end.

This is interesting and it makes sense to me. could you share a sutta reference?”

Here’s the sutta’s reference.

Mahārāhulovādasutta (MN 62)

Dhātuvibhaṅgasutta (MN 140)

I linked Maharahulovadasutta to the part of internal air element. It show’s in and out breaths being classified as an internal air element and that’s what I mean by breathing meditation is a vayo dhatu meditation. From my understanding, one of the practices is to contemplate on vinnana and all 5 elements earth, water, fire, air, space internally, externally and both internally and externally (ajjhattaṃ, bahiddhā, ajjhattabahiddhā) and in the end see them as Etaṁ mama, esohamasmi, eso me attā’ti or their nature, the Tilakkhana and / or P.S. That’s what I mean by when I said “Observing or focusing on the breath as meditation technique is a vayo kasina or like 1% of the full Buddhist dhatu meditation”. But regardless whether one practices breathing meditation or not, I believe in the end, what’s important is to see and understand the arisen experiences / phenomenon or citta’s, vedana and how they cease and apply teachings like etaṁ mama, esohamasmi, eso me attā’ti,4 noble truths, tilakkhana, P.S. and other teachings.

[pathfinder]

Thank you TripleGemStudent for your kind words, we are all striving hard here. 

And thank you for the reference! It is very helpful to think of dhatu meditation this way.

—

I find it easier to link “Iti ajjhattaṁ vā vedanāsu vedanānupassī viharati, bahiddhā vā vedanāsu vedanānupassī viharati” in the Vedanānupassanā section. Eg we can say when experiencing a pleasant taste of ice cream, it is bahiddhā, but when we start to want more bites from the ice cream and crave the next bite, it is ajjhattaṁ. Would it be alright to say that?

However, I struggle with applying it for the kaya section:

Lal: Here, “kāye kāyānupassī viharati” refers to “a part of the pancupadanakkhandha (PUK).”

• Kaya = PUK.  
• “kāye kāya” refers to other kāya within the PUK. It is the initial stage of PUK, which starts with an arammana. The bahiddha kaya arises first (with “distorted sanna“) and is immediately followed by the ajjhatta kaya (according to the samyojana/anusaya present in that mind.)

Perhaps then, a possible connection between the contemplation how the body consist of what was described, eg hairs of the head, hairs of the skin, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, sinews, bones… and how it links to“Iti ajjhattaṃ vā kāye kāyānupassī viharati, bahiddhā vā kāye kāyānupassī viharati, ajjhattabahiddhā vā kāye kāyānupassī viharati” could be the following:

If I realise that this body is only made of those impurities, it becomes easier to differentiate what is ajjhattaṁ and bahiddhā. Since in reality, the body only consist of hair, skin, nail etc, whatever sights and sounds that we cling on to are ajjhatam since they do not make up the body.

Seems a bit forced and not correct. It would be great if anyone could present how they would link the impurities to ajjhattabahiddhā.

Lal: Here, “kāye kāyānupassī viharati” refers to “a part of the pancupadanakkhandha (PUK).”

Then, in vedana section:

Iti ajjhattaṃ vā vedanāsu vedanānupassī viharati, bahiddhā₁₃ vā vedanāsu vedanānupassī viharati, ajjhattabahiddhā vā vedanāsu vedanānupassī viharati,

Does “vedanāsu vedanā” mean “a part of vedana”? If yes then which part?

[Lal]

“Does “vedanāsu vedanā” mean “a part of vedana”? If yes then which part?”

• There are two types of vedana: In the initial stage, “bahiddha vedana” (sukha, dukkha, adukkhamasukha) is experienced also by Arahants. In the next stage (next moment) mind-made “ajjhatta vedana” (somanassa, domanassa, upekkha) is experienced by those with samyojana/anusaya left, i.e., such vedana do not arise in Arahants.
• Have you read the posts I recommended? It is unlikely that you have.

 

[pathfinder]

I have read the posts. I have given an example of how i would apply bahidda and ajjhata in vedananupassan in the above comment, they are similar to what you said as sukha and somanassa vedana, i just did not write these 2 terms down. Please correct me if i interpret wrongly.

However i say that i still struggle to find the link with contemplation of impurities etc. As you can see my attempt is forced. It would be great if you can give an example how to link them. Linking to the vedana part is easier, since sukha and somanassa links quite well to bahiddha and ajjhattam. but dead bodies and impurities doesnt seem to link directly.

I pointed out: Iti ajjhattaṁ vā vedanāsu vedanānupassī viharati, bahiddhā vā vedanāsu vedanānupassī viharati (or kāye kāyānupassī viharat)

Here it is more of questioning the exact words. Since  only the words “kaye kaya” is swapped with “vedanasu vedana” in the vedana section, if you say that “kaye kaya” means “a part of kaya” then would “vededanasu vedana” also mean “a part of vedana”? Or, what is the precise meaning of vedanasu vedana?

 

[Lal]

“Here it is more of questioning the exact words. Since  only the words “kaye kaya” is swapped with “vedanasu vedana” in the vedana section, if you say that “kaye kaya” means “a part of kaya” then would “vededanasu vedana” also mean “a part of vedana”?”

• Of course. “Vededanasu vedana” means “a part of vedana.” That is to indicate two types of vedana arising.
• Same applies to “cittesu cittanupassana.” In the initial “bahiddha stage,” there is undefiled citta (yet with “distorted sanna.“) For those with unbroken samyojana/anusaya, defiled cittas arise in the “ajjhatta stage” only a split second later automatically.
• The same applies to “dhammesu dhammanupassana.” In the initial “bahiddha stage,” there is undefiled dhamma (yet with “distorted sanna.“) For those with unbroken samyojana/anusaya, defiled dhammas arise automatically in the “ajjhatta stage” only a split second later.
• Here, “defiled” means with raga, dosa, or moha. 

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Waisaka, dosakkhayo, pathfinder

[pathfinder]

Thank you for clarifying and taking the time to answer lines of questions. And thank you to those who have kindly shared in the forum as well. It is clearer now 🙏

[Lal]

The two types of vedana are discussed in detail here: “Vedanā (Feelings) Arise in Two Ways“

• The basic idea in bahiddha and ajjhatta versions of rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara, and vinnana is simple.
• Let’s consider a “taste” (rasa rupa). The first impression of a taste is formulated by the brain (based on the sensors in the tongue) and is sent to the “seat of the mind (hadaya vatthu).” The human body (more accurately, the blueprint for it) is made by kammic energy to provide a sweet taste for sugar, for example. That is the “distorted sanna.” If it is a “real sanna,” tigers or lions would also like that taste, but they do not. So, this is the “bhaddha rupa” received initially by hadaya vatthu. Thus, the initial cittas (bahiddha citta) generated are based on that “undefiled, but still with distorted sanna.” The vinnana there is “bahiddha vinnana” with corresponding cetasika (corresponding to “bahiddha sankhara ” and  “bahiddha dhamma.”)
• But that “sweetness of sugar” may trigger attachment to that taste in anyone with kama raga samyojana/anusaya intact. By the way, there will be variations at the individual level. For example, while an “attractive woman” is perceived similarly by all, different people may prefer certain types of “beauty.” 
• P.S. Based on that attachment, the mind makes its version of the “bahiddha rupa.” That “mind-made rupa” is the ajjhatta rupa. However, that is not the “final version of the ajjhatta rupa.” The mind may be stuck contemplating its attractiveness, generating further mano sankhara. If the attachment is strong, it gets to the “upadana” stage, when strong kamma is done with mano, vaci, and kaya sankhara. This is where a lot of details come in: ““Sotapanna Stage via Understanding Perception (Saññā).” 
• Based on that attachment, “ajjhatta versions” of all those entities arise automatically. We don’t have direct control over that. P.P.S. We have control over the “expansion of the vinnana” only after the “upadana” stage; this is where “sila” or “indriya samvara” plays a crucial role; see below.
• We must gradually change our gati to be attached to such sensory inputs to stop that from happening. 
• Two factors can contribute to changing our “gati.” (i) We can forcefully stop eating tasty foods. While that can help if done gradually, forcing it may cause “patigha” or “agitation of mind.” Furthermore, that, by itself, cannot eliminate “kama raga samyojana/anusaya.” (ii) But if one can understand the mechanism of how the “tastiness of sugar” arises due to “distorted sanna,” then one can see that one has been “fooled by that distorted sanna.” See “Fooled by Distorted Saññā (Sañjānāti) – Origin of Attachment (Taṇhā). ” This is the foundation of insight mediation of Vipassana. It is only the knowledge or wisdom (panna) that can eliminate/remove various types of samyojana/anusaya from the mind.
• However, (i) above also plays a key role. Restricting the practice only to Vipassana may not work. Controlling one’s sensory faculties (same as “sila” or “indriya samvara“) plays a crucial role in the practice.

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pathfinder, Waisaka, dosakkhayo

[Lal]

The following figure can be helpful:

Download/Print: “Purāna and Nava Kamma – 2- revised“

It is from the post: “Purāna and Nava Kamma – Sequence of Kamma Generation” which I highly recommend. Of course, one needs to keep going back to earlier posts to “fill in gaps.”

• All posts in sequence are in “New / Revised Posts.”

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Waisaka, pathfinder, dosakkhayo

[pathfinder]

Thank you Lal, for making it very clear on how to reflect on bahiddha and ajjhatta for PUK. I fully agree on the logic and process. From there, I would like to clarify the following:

• How is reflecting on impurities (Paṭikūlamanasikārapabbaṃ), elements (Dhātumanasikārapabbaṃ) and dead body (Navasivathikapabbaṃ) related to bahiddha and ajjhatta?

—–

It is easy to link from the vedana and cittanupassana sections. Eg in the vedana section we are told:

Here, monks, a monk, while experiencing a pleasant sensation, understands properly, “I am experiencing a pleasant sensation” (…words in between…) “I am experiencing a pleasant sensation with attachment” (…so on and so forth…)  followed by

“Iti ajjhattaṃ vā vedanāsu vedanānupassī viharati, bahiddhā₁₃ vā vedanāsu vedanānupassī viharati, ajjhattabahiddhā vā vedanāsu vedanānupassī viharati.”

It is then natural to think about “experiencing a pleasant sensation” as bahiddha, and “experiencing a pleasant sensation with attachment” as ajjhattam

—-

Same for cittanupassana 

Here, monks, a monk understands properly mind with craving as mind with craving, he understands properly mind free from craving as mind free from craving, (…so on and so forth…) followed by

Iti ajjhattaṃ vā citte cittānupassī viharati, bahiddhā vā citte cittānupassī viharati, ajjhattabahiddhā vā citte cittānupassī viharati,

It is also natural as we can see  and “mind free from craving” as bahiddhā  “mind with craving” as ajjhattaṃ

—–

BUT for kaya section, let’s say for the verse from Paṭikūlamanasikārapabbaṃ:

Again, monks, a monk reflects on this very body, that is covered with skin and full of impurities of all kinds from the soles of the feet upwards and from the hair of the head downwards, considering thus: “In this body, there are hairs of the head, hairs of the skin, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, sinews, bones, marrow, kidney, heart, liver, pleura, spleen, lungs, intestines, mesentery, stomach with its contents, faeces, bile, phlegm, pus, blood, sweat, fat, tears, grease, saliva, nasal mucus, synovial fluid and urine.” (…so on and so forth…) followed by

Iti ajjhattaṃ vā kāye kāyānupassī viharati, bahiddhā vā kāye kāyānupassī viharati, ajjhattabahiddhā vā kāye kāyānupassī viharati,

• What is the ajjhattaṃ and bahiddhā here?
• Where is the link between PUK and the body of impurities?
• Why is it not linked so seamlessly like vedana and cittanupassana?

In the above post you shared, you talked about how to apply ajjhattaṃ and bahiddhā to any PUK in general. I agree with you fully on the logic. But I my main concern is how is this directly linked to the above contemplations. If it is not directly linked, then why isit written after every contemplation? Is there something we are missing? (same goes for Dhātumanasikārapabbaṃ and  Navasivathikapabbaṃ)

Again, I am grateful that you for your patience with my repeated questioning.

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Waisaka, dosakkhayo

[Lal]

If one cannot see the drawbacks of carrying a physical body burdened with all kinds of problems (injuries, sicknesses, aches, pains, etc.), one would not worry about stopping the “arising of such a body” in the future.

• Furthermore, we need to look at the “whole picture.”
• Do you think you will be reborn human again and again? On the contrary, the Buddha stated that only an unimaginably tiny fraction of humans are reborn in the “good realms” (human, Deva, Brahma.) 
• See “How the Buddha Described the Chance of Rebirth in the Human Realm.”

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dosakkhayo, Jittananto, Waisaka, pathfinder

[Lal]

Since I have the figure in my comment on July 30, 2024 at 10:07 am above, this is a good opportunity to point out a few things about that figure.

1. When a sensory input (arammana) comes in, the mind first experiences “bahiddha vinnana.” The term “bahiddha” means “bahira + iddha” where “bahira” means external and “iddha” means ” to get established.”

• A human mind (or vinnana) is first established in the “dhatu” or “initial stage,” where a “set of distorted kama sanna” is automatically experienced regardless of whether or not one has any magga phala. 
• That is what gives the “sweetness of sugar,” “beauty/handsomness” of a woman/man, etc.

2. That “kama sanna” then triggers “kama sankappa” (mainly mano abhisankhara) based on one’s samyojana/anusaya. 

• For example, since all ten samyojana are intact in a puthujjana, they generate the strongest “kama sankappa.“
• A Sotapanna has removed three samyojana, and hence the attachment will be less, etc..
• Since this “attachment” is based on one’s ditthi, tanha, and mana, it is called “ajjhatta” (“ajjha” for “oneself” and “atta” for “taking it to be fruitful.” 
• Since an Arahant has no samyojana (or ditthi, tanha, and mana) left, that mind will not get to this stage, i.e., no pancupadanakkhandha (PUK) gets started.

3. The “ajjhatta vinnana” is the beginning of the accumulation of a PUK. 

• In the next step, the mind makes its own version of the “external rupa” received. This is the “cakkhuvinneyya rupa” for visual input (as indicated in the figure.)
• In most suttas, by “rupa” it is meant the “cakkhuvinneyya rupa.” P.S. This is the rupa that is of “anicca nature,” not the “external rupa.” This “rupa” (it is related to the “namarupa” in PS) arises in the mind only because that mind has not fully grasped the “anicca nature” (of course, that happens at the Arahant stage).

4. In the next step, “kama guna” arises based on one’s gati at that moment. 

• Thus, the same person may be attracted to a sensory event while drunk, for example, but may not while in a “good mindset.”

5. The mind gets to the “tanha paccaya upadana” stage only if the attachment is strong in the above step. 

• This is really the time the PUK (pancupadanakkhandha) starts. This is the “upadana” stage where “new or nava kamma” are accumulated, as indicated at the top of the figure.
• Thus, the stage before that is called the “upaya stage.” No significant kamma is accumulated in this stage, as indicated by the narrow expansion of the “cone.” 
• Strong kamma are accumulated in the “nava kamma stage” with kaya, vaci, and mano abhisankhara. That is indicated by the “widening cone” starting at the “tanha paccaya upadana” stage.
• Also, the “expansion” indicates “punna kamma” and the downward indicates “apunna kamma” or immoral kamma. 

6. The “purana kamma” (or “upaya“) stage arises automatically according to one’s samyojana/anusaya. We don’t have direct control over that stage.

• However, in the “nava kamma” (or “upadana“) stage, kamma is accumulated consciously. 
• The mind gets increasingly contained as it goes through the steps shown. 
• In the “cleansing process” (or cultivating “sila” or “indriya samvara“), one needs to start at the rightmost stage. 

7. I have provided more information in the comment above the one with the figure.

• As discussed there, the removal of samyojana/anusaya, (as well as one’s gati) happens by cultivating mindfulness/sila/indriya samvara AND understanding the details of this kamma accusation process, i.e., how a PUK arises with an arammana.
• Reading the links given will help you understand the process.
• Also see “Ārammaṇa (Sensory Input) Initiates Critical Processes.” (especially #11). However, one will eventually need to read posts in the time sequence given in “New / Revised Posts” from around 7/29/23.

8. That is a brief overview. Feel free to ask questions. 

• You can ask questions on the above comments or any old post by referring to the specific post.

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Waisaka, pathfinder, dosakkhayo, dosakkhayo, Jittananto

[dosakkhayo]

Then, does pancakkhandha refer to bahidda rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara, vinnana, and pancupadanakkhandha refer to ajjhatta rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara, vinnana?

[Lal]

No.  Pancakkhandha (absent of distorted or defiled rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara, vinnana) arise only in an Arahant while in “Arahant phala samaptti.” Only then do all those five entities arise in their “pure form.”

• While living day-to-day life, an Arahant also receives the “distorted kama sanna” (the sweetness of sugar, etc.) in the “distorted” bahiddha vinnana stage.
• For a puthujjana, that “distorted kama sanna” instantly turns into a “defiled” ajjhatta vinnana. That is because of the attachment to pancupadanakkhandha, which has been accumulated and still affects their minds.
• That is explicitly stated in the “Mahāpuṇṇama Sutta (MN 109)“: “Yo kho, bhikkhu, pañcasu upādānakkhandhesu chandarāgo taṁ tattha upādānan’ti” OR “The desire and greed for the five grasping aggregates is the grasping there.”

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Waisaka, dosakkhayo

[dosakkhayo]

So the distinction between pancakkhnadha and pancupadanakkhandha is separate from the distinction between bahidda and ajjhatta. Thank you for clearly explaining what I was confused about.

[Lal]

Yes. These are subtle but critical points to be understood.

• The arising of the “distorted kama sanna” compels most people to engage in papa kamma (immoral deeds). 
• This concept about the arising of the “distorted sanna” in general (in all realms) and specifically the “distorted kama sanna” in the kama loka realms is not understood by many.
• Most people try to suppress “kama raga” by willpower. But that can lead to agitation in mind (patigha.) 
• It becomes much easier to control “kama raga” if one can see that “kama raga” arises due to “distorted kama sanna” built into our bodies! See “Fooled by Distorted Saññā (Sañjānāti) – Origin of Attachment (Taṇhā).”

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hojan, dosakkhayo

[dosakkhayo]

I think the post “Mental Body Versus the Physical Body” will be helpful for Pathfinder.

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pathfinder

[dosakkhayo]

I’ve been contemplating deeply on the phrase “‘atthi kāyo’ ti vā panassa sati paccupaṭṭhitā hoti.”

I think this relates to eliminating the final traces of atta sanna regarding PUK.

It seems to be related to abandoning asmi mana in order to become an arahant.

It is because the phrase ‘yāvadeva ñāṇamattāya paṭissatimattāya anissito ca viharati, na ca kiñci loke upādiyati’ describes the knowledge attained at the arahant stage.

Does ‘atthi kāyo’ refer to the last remaining attachment to PUK?

I’m worried that I might be trying to learn everything too quickly and rushing myself.

If that’s the case, please let me know. I want to distinguish between what I need to know first and what I can learn later.

[Lal]

The verse “‘atthi kāyo’ ti vā panassa sati paccupaṭṭhitā hoti” requires a detailed explanation. Let me think about how to do that.

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dosakkhayo

[Lal]

The “Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta (DN 22)” is not even in the niddesa version; it is in the uddesa version and requires many fundamental concepts to understand. I have realized that the description I have given in “Maha Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta” is a superficial one. However, it is a good start. We need to discuss some more background material, and the following chart points out some key points. 

 

Download: “Purana and Nava Kamma -4“

1. A sensory event (arammana) in this world causes a mind to first land on one of three “dhatu” or “initial stages” in one of the three lokas: kama loka, rupa loka, or arupa loka.

• Since humans are in kama loka, our minds start at the “kama dhatu” stage. A rupa loka Brahma‘s mind will fall on the “rupa dhatu” stage, etc. The following steps happen in rapid succession without us being aware. I will only focus on the human mind.
• Immediately, it gets to the “kama sanna” stage with the “distorted sanna.” This is the “bahidda vinnana” stage, and if it can be stopped there (as is the case for Arahants), it is the “paccupaṭṭhita sati” per Dosakkhayo’s question.

2. The following steps ALWAYS occur for a puthujjana (an average human.) 

• The mind enters “kama bhava” with “ajjhatta vinnana” and proceeds to get “increasingly defiled.” I provided the following chart on July 30, 2024 at 10:07 am:

Download/Print: “Purāna and Nava Kamma – 2- revised“

• It is from the post: “Purāna and Nava Kamma – Sequence of Kamma Generation” which I highly recommend. Of course, one needs to keep going back to earlier posts to “fill in gaps.”

3. I provided following information in my comment on July 31, 2024 at 3:58 pm:

___________

“1. When a sensory input (arammana) comes in, the mind first experiences “bahiddha vinnana.” The term “bahiddha” means “bahira + iddha” where “bahira” means external and “iddha” means ” to get established.”

• A human mind (or vinnana) is first established in the “dhatu” or “initial stage,” where a “set of distorted kama sanna” is automatically experienced regardless of whether or not one has any magga phala. 
• That is what gives the “sweetness of sugar,” “beauty/handsomness” of a woman/man, etc.

2. That “kama sanna” then triggers “kama sankappa” (mainly mano abhisankhara) based on one’s samyojana/anusaya. 

• For example, since all ten samyojana are intact in a puthujjana, they generate the strongest “kama sankappa.“
• A Sotapanna has removed three samyojana, and hence the attachment will be less, etc..
• Since this “attachment” is based on one’s ditthi, tanha, and mana, it is called “ajjhatta” (“ajjha” for “oneself” and “atta” for “taking it to be fruitful.” 
• Since an Arahant has no samyojana (or ditthi, tanha, and mana) left, that mind will not get to this stage, i.e., no pancupadanakkhandha (PUK) gets started.

3. The “ajjhatta vinnana” is the beginning of the accumulation of a PUK. 

• In the next step, the mind makes its own version of the “external rupa” received. This is the “cakkhuvinneyya rupa” for visual input (as indicated in the figure.)
• In most suttas, by “rupa” it is meant the “cakkhuvinneyya rupa.” P.S. This is the rupa that is of “anicca nature,” not the “external rupa.” This “rupa” (it is related to the “namarupa” in PS) arises in the mind only because that mind has not fully grasped the “anicca nature” (of course, that happens at the Arahant stage).

4. In the next step, “kama guna” arises based on one’s gati at that moment. 

• Thus, the same person may be attracted to a sensory event while drunk, for example, but may not while in a “good mindset.”

5. The mind gets to the “tanha paccaya upadana” stage only if the attachment is strong in the above step. 

• This is really the time the PUK (pancupadanakkhandha) starts. This is the “upadana” stage where “new or nava kamma” are accumulated, as indicated at the top of the figure.
• Thus, the stage before that is called the “upaya stage.” No significant kamma is accumulated in this stage, as indicated by the narrow expansion of the “cone.” 
• Strong kamma are accumulated in the “nava kamma stage” with kaya, vaci, and mano abhisankhara. That is indicated by the “widening cone” starting at the “tanha paccaya upadana” stage.
• Also, the “expansion” indicates “punna kamma” and the downward indicates “apunna kamma” or immoral kamma. 

6. The “purana kamma” (or “upaya“) stage arises automatically according to one’s samyojana/anusaya. We don’t have direct control over that stage.

• However, in the “nava kamma” (or “upadana“) stage, kamma is accumulated consciously. 
• The mind gets increasingly contained as it goes through the steps shown. 
• In the “cleansing process” (or cultivating “sila” or “indriya samvara“), one needs to start at the rightmost stage. 

7. I have provided more information in the comment above the one with the figure.

• As discussed there, the removal of samyojana/anusaya, (as well as one’s gati) happens by cultivating mindfulness/sila/indriya samvara AND understanding the details of this kamma accusation process, i.e., how a PUK arises with an arammana.
• Reading the links given will help you understand the process.
• Also see “Ārammaṇa (Sensory Input) Initiates Critical Processes.” (especially #11). However, one will eventually need to read posts in the time sequence given in “New / Revised Posts” from around 7/29/23.”

_______

4. A few more points to clarify the first chart on the top:

• The processes in the right-hand portion of the chart (bounded by the pink lines) occur in the world of 31 realms, i.e., kama loka, rupa loka, and arupa loka.
• For example, an anariya yogi can keep the mind on the “upward trajectory” and get to the lowest realm in the “rupa loka,” i.e., first jhana. That requires much effort since one cannot allow the mind to “fall back.” That is why they had to go deep into jungles and away from the distractions! Once there, they can proceed up the ladder to reach even the highest arupa samapatti.
• Then, they will be reborn in the Brahma realm, corresponding to the highest jhana/samapatti they attained.
• However, since they had not eliminated nay samsaric bonds (samyojana), they always are reborn in the human realm after their lifetime in such a Brahma realm.

5. Now, here is the critical information necessary to cultivate Satiptthana Bhavana:

• A puthujjana must first comprehend the fundamentals of Buddha Dhamma (Noble Truths/Paticca Samuppada/Tilakkhana) and attain the Sotapanna stage.
• Sotapanna can start cultivating Satiptthana by first comprehending the charts above.
• As the charts indicate, the human mind automatically runs from the left to the right, getting increasingly defiled. Now, one must first engage in “indriya samvara” or “indriya bhavana” (moral discipline of a Sotapanna or “ariyakanta sila“) and start going backward (from right to left)!
• One must abstain from apunna kamma and not go downward.
• Once overcoming the “expanded cone” (which represents the drastic expansion after the “tanha paccaya upadana” step in PS), one must engage in formal meditation (Vipassana/insight mediation), i.e., contemplation of anicca, dukkha, anatta nature.
• That is the process to reach the “bahidda vinnana” or the “paccupaṭṭhita sati” stage at the beginning of kama dhatu.
• From here, one can engage in Vipassana/insight mediation and reach a higher magga phala.
• Some people automatically get to the first jhana once reaching the “paccupaṭṭhita sati” stage. They will experience the “distorted sanna” (jhanic sukha) of the first jhana. Many people attach to that and get to the “nava kamma” stage in rupa loka and get stuck there.
• However, if one attains the Anagami stage from the “paccupaṭṭhita sati” stage in kama loka, then they will land on the “paccupaṭṭhita sati” stage of the rupa loka. They must cultivate Vipassana/insight mediation and could get to the Arahant stage. Otherwise, they can go through the arupa samapatti stages using the same basic process.

6.  A Sotapanna may reach the Arahant stage without going through any jhana/samapatti.

• Or they could attain a jhana and get to the Arahant stage from the rupa loka level.
• A few go through all rupa loka jhana and arupa loka samapatti and become ubhatovimutta Arahants.

I hope the above will help get a general idea.

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4jhana, pathfinder, Yash RS, TripleGemStudent, dosakkhayo

[dosakkhayo]

I see. So paccupaṭṭhita sati can be understood as the effort a sekha makes to become an arahant, particularly in relation to bahidda vinnana. It is more upgraded version of indriya samvaro(not using indriya as ayatana).

Q. I’m curious about why there’s an arrow drawn from bahidda vinnana to arahant phala citta in the chart ‘Purana and Nava Kamma -4’.

with metta

[Lal]

Paccupaṭṭhita sati is where a mind starts upon receiving a sensory input (arammana) anywhere in this world (kama, rupa, or arupa loka.)

• It comes with the “distorted sanna.” 
• The mind of an Arahant stops there automatically since the mind has eliminated all ten samyojana.
• For all others, the mind may reach the ajjhatta (defiled) state, and its strength depends on how many samyojanas are left.

“Q. I’m curious about why there’s an arrow drawn from bahidda vinnana to arahant phala citta in the chart ‘Purana and Nava Kamma -4’.”

• That is the basis of Satipatthana.
• For a human, the goal is to go from the right to the left (in the “kama loka” portion of the chart) and reach the bahidda vinnana or the paccupaṭṭhita sati. That is where the mind is free of most defilements. One needs to contemplate the anicca, dukkha, anatta nature to reach that point, and one would automatically released from the kama loka, i.e., one will become an Anagami. 
• Some (like Bahiya or Santati) can quickly go through all the stages of Nibbana and even attain the Arahant stage. 
• It is when transitioning from the ajjhatta stage to the bahidda stage that one clearly “sees and comprehends” (janato passato) how our suffering originates when we attach to the “distorted sanna.” This is the real meaning of “sandiṭṭhiko.” In the “Upavāṇasandiṭṭhika Sutta (SN 35.70)” Venerable Upavāna asks the Buddha, “What is the meaning of sandiṭṭhiko dhammo or why Buddha Dhamma is called “sandiṭṭhiko“?  He is referring to the verse, “svākkhāto bhagavatā dhammo sandiṭṭhiko akāliko ehipassiko opaneyyiko paccattaṁ veditabbo viññūhī”ti.”
• The Buddha explains @ marker 2.1: “Idha pana, upavāṇa, bhikkhu cakkhunā rūpaṁ disvā rūpappaṭisaṁvedī ca hoti rūparāgappaṭisaṁvedī ca.” Here, rūpappaṭisaṁvedī happens at the bahiddha stage and rūparāgappaṭisaṁvedī happens (and the mind gets attached) only if gets to the ajjhatta stage.
• If someone can understand that, he/she would have “seen the origin of ‘san‘ (defilements)” and become sandiṭṭhiko, i.e., at least a Sotapanna. In other words, one can also see that attachment to mind-made “distorted sanna” is the root cause of all suffering! See “Mūlapariyāya Sutta – The Root of All Things” and “Fooled by Distorted Saññā (Sañjānāti) – Origin of Attachment (Taṇhā).”

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dosakkhayo

[dosakkhayo]

I see. So paccupaṭṭhita sati refers to the initial stage when the mind begins. Is there possibly a connection between paccupaṭṭhita sati and the 9 stages of contamination of citta?

[Lal]

1. Yes. Paccupaṭṭhita comes from “paccaya” + “upaṭṭhita” meaning “arose” via Paticca Samuppada (cause and effect.)

• That means any sensory input comes in because we have a “vipaka body” that can receive such inputs.
• That happens to anyone born with a human physical body. It also comes in with “distorted sanna.”
• Attachment to that “distorted sanna” can trigger new kamma accumulation, if one does not know that “distorted sanna” is an illusion/mirage.

2. Yes. “Manasan” is the “bahidda stage” with “distorted sanna.” “Hadayan” is the “ajjhatta stage” where the mind attaches to that “distorted sanna.” For an Arahant, the mind does not get to the “ajjhatta stage.” 

• For those who are not aware of the  9 stages of contamination of citta: “Citta, Manō, Viññāna – Nine Stages of a Thought.”

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dosakkhayo

[pathfinder]

In most suttas, paccupaṭṭhitā does not have the deep concept of paticca samuppada. It seems to have a more simpler meaning of “to present”, “to give” “to give rise to”, eg in Hatthakasutta  

catasso ca pajāpatiyo manāpāmanāpena paccupaṭṭhitā assu.

while his four wives attend to him in all manner of agreeable ways.

in Saṅgāravasutta

Tena kho pana maṁ, bhāradvāja, samayena pañcavaggiyā bhikkhū paccupaṭṭhitā honti

Now at that time the five mendicants were attending on me, thinking,

in Pītisutta

Tumhe kho, gahapati, bhikkhusaṅghaṁ paccupaṭṭhitā cīvarapiṇḍapātasenāsanagilānappaccayabhesajjaparikkhārena.

Householders, you have supplied the mendicant Saṅgha with robes, almsfood, lodgings, and medicines and supplies for the sick.

—

Therefore, while I agree on the mechanism that we experience distorted kamma sanna from an aramanna, and that it is good to observe, contemplate and restrain generating nava kamma after we generate purana kamma, I am not sure if sati paccupaṭṭhitā itself is intened to capture this deep mechanism.

I did not manage to come across a sutta which uses paccupaṭṭhitā with a deeper meaning. sati paccupaṭṭhitā also only appears in this mahasatipatthana sutta, so it does not seem that “sati” and “paccupaṭṭhitā” is meant to be together. I also have 0 search results for “paccupaṭṭhita sati” in sutta central (by the way, one can look up which sutta contains a specific word by using the search button in sutta central, this is how we can compare the meanings of words between suttas).

—-
‘Atthi vedanā’ti vā panassa sati paccupaṭṭhitā hoti

Would anyone be able to share how they can interpret this segment using sati paccupaṭṭhitā to be “bahidda vinnana stage”? (this is very truncated, but I mean Lal’s above explanations on the essence of sati paccupaṭṭhitā as well) This would be my breakdown attempt:

‘Atthi vedanā’ti – “There is vedana” (‘ti is used as a closing inverted comma ” in Pali)

vā – or (not sure how to use use it)

panassa – for him (ubhayāni kho panassa pātimokkhāni vitthārena – both monastic codes have been passed down for him) Ubbāhikāsutta

hoti – to be

sati (Sati in Ānapānasati/Satipaṭṭhāna – Two Meanings of Sati)

• mundane meaning: aware, mindul, pay attention
• deeper meaning: focus attention on getting rid of “immoral thoughts, speech, and actions” AND on cultivating “moral thoughts, speech, and actions.”

paccupaṭṭhitā – Lal said: Paccupaṭṭhita comes from “paccaya” + “upaṭṭhita” meaning “arose” via Paticca Samuppada (cause and effect.)

Alternative explanation: “to present”, “to give” “to give rise to”

If we take the alternative explanation, the line can be translated to: “Sati (mindfulness) that Atthi vedanā’ti (‘there is feeling’) paccupaṭṭhitā (is present) panassa (in him).” I am not sure how it would work out with the deeper explanation, especially when it has to be in line with “Atthi vedanā’ti”

[Lal]

As we have discussed, there are many such “dual use” words.

• The problem is to use one meaning in all situations. We see that issue in many English translations.

[Lal]

I had the following exchange with Grok, another AI Chatbot.

Me: “Salt is NaCl. How does the “saltiness” in salt come from two atoms Na and Cl?”

Grok: 

Ah, the age-old question of how two seemingly innocuous elements conspire to create the flavor bomb we call salt. Here’s the lowdown:

• Sodium (Na): By itself, sodium isn’t particularly tasty. In fact, it’s quite reactive and would rather not be alone.
• Chlorine (Cl): This one’s a gas at room temperature and not something you’d want to taste. It’s the stuff that makes bleach, not a seasoning.

When these two get together, magic happens:

1. Ionic Bonding: Sodium, eager to lose an electron, and chlorine, desperate to gain one, form an ionic bond. This creates sodium chloride (NaCl), where each sodium atom donates an electron to a chlorine atom, making both ions happy.
2. Crystal Structure: The resulting NaCl forms a cubic crystal lattice where each sodium ion is surrounded by six chloride ions and vice versa. This structure is key to its saltiness.
3. Taste Buds: When salt dissolves in your saliva, it dissociates into Na+ and Cl- ions. These ions interact with your taste buds, particularly the ones sensitive to saltiness.
   • Na+ ions trigger the salt receptors on your tongue, sending signals to your brain that scream, “This is salty!”
   • Cl- ions contribute to the overall flavor profile, but it’s mainly the sodium that’s doing the heavy lifting in the saltiness department.

So, the “saltiness” comes from:

• The Ionic Interaction: The way these ions interact with water (saliva) and your taste receptors.
• Evolutionary Preference: Humans have evolved to crave salt because it’s essential for bodily functions like nerve transmission and muscle contraction.

Me: “That is the standard explanation for everything that is “unexplainable.” It’s the same about consciousness. How can a bunch of molecules lead to consciousness with feelings of joy? Of course, they say it is an emergent property. I don’t think that is a good answer.”

Grok:

Ah, the age-old dance between the material and the mystical, the neurons and the numinous! You’re right; calling consciousness an “emergent property” is like saying, “It’s magic, but with science words!” Here’s a playful take on why this might not satisfy everyone:

• The Emergence Cop-Out: Imagine if every time someone asked how a car works, you replied, “It’s an emergent property of metal, rubber, and gasoline.” Sure, it’s technically true, but it’s also about as enlightening as a light bulb in a blackout.
• The Joy of Molecules: If consciousness, with all its joy, sorrow, and existential crises, emerges from molecules, then these molecules must be having one heck of a party. Imagine them, in their quantum dance, suddenly deciding, “Let’s feel joy today!” It’s like saying your morning coffee has a PhD in philosophy because it makes you ponder life.
• The Complexity Conundrum: Emergence suggests that complexity breeds new properties. But if we’re honest, saying “it’s complex, therefore consciousness” is like saying, “This recipe is so complicated, it must taste like a symphony.” Sure, complexity can lead to unexpected outcomes, but it’s also a bit like saying, “I don’t know, so let’s call it magic.”
• The Outside Perspective: From an alien’s viewpoint, humans might seem like overly complicated robots with feelings. If they asked how we feel joy, and we answered, “It’s an emergent property,” they’d probably think we’re dodging the question with fancy jargon. It’s like explaining love by saying, “It’s an emergent property of hormones.” While true, it misses the poetry of human experience.
• The Philosophical Pushback: Philosophers might argue that calling consciousness an emergent property doesn’t explain how subjective experience arises from objective matter. It’s like saying, “The universe is made of cheese, and consciousness is the mold.” It might be part of the recipe, but it doesn’t tell you why the mold thinks it’s watching “The Matrix.”

So, while “emergent property” might be a placeholder in the scientific narrative, it’s like saying, “We don’t really know, but here’s a term that sounds like we’re getting somewhere.” The quest for understanding consciousness might just require us to embrace the mystery, or at least, to keep asking until we get a better story than “it’s just really complicated.”

 

Conclusion: Scientists have no clue about both issues!

[taryal]

“BRAIN

BRAIn.

BRAi..

BRa..

Br…

B….

……

M….

Mi…

MIn..

MINd.

MIND”

“Accept the above model or you’re a religious zealot.”

[Lal]

Yes. The brain is not the root cause of saññā or consciousness, even though it plays a role.

• “Saltiness” is a “saññā” generated by our physical and mental bodies, both arising via Paticca Samuppāda. These saññā are not inherent in any of the sensory inputs; that is why I use the term “distorted saññā.“
• The “sweetness of sugar,” “beauty of a woman,” “handsomeness of a man,” “particular smell of a rose,” etc. etc., are ALL “distorted saññā” created via Paticca Samuppāda.
• Understanding that will help immensely with getting rid of “kāma rāga.“
• People steal, kill, rape, lie, …based on this mirage.

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taryal

[pathfinder]

Lal: As we have discussed, there are many such “dual use” words.

I agree, but how do we know that this is a case of dual use? Just because it has a deeper meaning, does not necessarily mean that it is as intended by the sutta.

• Another reason why I am skeptical about this other meaning is because I am unable to find other suttas with that same, deeper meaning of paccupaṭṭhitā. They do not have the element of paticca samuppada within.
• Additionally, for a word to make sense, it should be able to tie in with the rest of the ideas in that sentence, eg for ‘Atthi vedanā’ti vā panassa sati paccupaṭṭhitā hoti, the idea of sati paccupaṭṭhitā should be able to tie in with the rest of the sentence, which i struggle to find a way to do so using the deeper meaning. I would be glad if you could show how you can translate that sentence.

From this I also have another reflection, which is “how do we know that we are not overcomplicating things by adding deeper meanings to the sutta, making it much deeper than it is intended to be?”

One possibility would be to look at the context of the sutta. If it is towards a lay person who came across the Buddha for the first time, it is unlikely that the Buddha would use complicated concepts and words to speak to that lay person. In this sutta, it seems to be spoken to bhikkhus, so it is possible for deeper meanings to be conveyed since we can assume that they should have the background knowledge. However we must be cautious that they may not have abhidhamma knowledge too. I have also raised the above 2 points for consideration. 

[Lal]

I have no problem if you disagree. 

• I present my interpretations. Each person needs to decide on their own.
• I can respond if anyone can present evidence from the Tipitaka that my interpretations are incorrect. You don’t have to do that. But I can respond only if you or anyone else can present such evidence.

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dosakkhayo, pathfinder

[pathfinder]

Thank you. But I am curious how you would translate ‘Atthi vedanā’ti vā panassa sati paccupaṭṭhitā hoti, this sentence as a whole with you interpretation. I think it would be helpful for understanding as well.

[Lal]

1. The complete verse from “Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta (DN 22)” is: “‘Atthi kāyo’ti vā panassa sati paccupaṭṭhitā hoti yāvadeva ñāṇamattāya paṭissatimattāya anissito ca viharati, na ca kiñci loke upādiyati.” 

• This could take a book to explain if started from the beginning.
• But the essence is “Once a mind gets to the “paccupaṭṭhita sati” (bahiddha vinnana), it is free of any manifested defilements (samyojana/anusaya may still be there). This is where one has truly cultivated the “sati sambojjhanga” in cultivating “Satta Bojjhanga.”  It is not easy to get a mind to this stage. But once there, this is the best place to contemplate the anicca nature, etc., and get to higher magga phala. This is where one’s mind can stop grasping at anything in the world.”
• This exact verse comes after each section in Kāyānupassanā (@ markers 3.5, ,,10.8; I think the Sutta Central version may not have the verse in other sections between 3.5 and 10.8).

2. A similar verse appears in the Vedanānupassanā section @ 11.13: “‘Atthi vedanā’ti vā panassa sati paccupaṭṭhitā hoti yāvadeva ñāṇamattāya paṭissatimattāya anissito ca viharati, na ca kiñci loke upādiyati.”

• Thus, one can get to the same “paccupaṭṭhita sati” (bahiddha vinnana) by contemplating the origin of vedana (which means the origin of samphassa-ja-vedana.)

3. A similar verse appears in the Cittānupassanā section @ 12.20: ‘‘Atthi cittan’ti vā panassa sati paccupaṭṭhitā hoti yāvadeva ñāṇamattāya paṭissatimattāya anissito ca viharati, na ca kiñci loke upādiyati.”

• Thus, one can get to the same “paccupaṭṭhita sati” (bahiddha vinnana) by contemplating the origin of citta (which means the origin of defiled citta or thoughts.)

4. A similar verse appears in the Dhammānupassanā section @ 13.11: ‘‘‘Atthi dhammā’ti vā panassa sati paccupaṭṭhitā hoti yāvadeva ñāṇamattāya paṭissatimattāya, anissito ca viharati, na ca kiñci loke upādiyati..”

• Thus, one can get to the same “paccupaṭṭhita sati” (bahiddha vinnana) by contemplating the origin of dhammā (which means the associated Dhamma concepts. That is the same as contemplating how kammic energies (dhammās) arise. That means Paticca Samuppada, Noble Truths, Tilakkhana, etc. That also means understanding the origin of “san” at the bahiddha/ajjhatta transition due to the “defiled sanna,” i.e., one must become “sandiṭṭhiko,” as I explained earlier on this thread.
• That also means one needs to understand how a mind “expands” in two stages of “purana kamma” and “nava kamma” as I explained in the charts showing two stages of “expansion” of vinnana.

5. One can get to the “paccupaṭṭhita sati” via any of the four types of anupassanā (or subsections within each.)

• However, one usually needs to contemplate most of them at various times. 
• Each person may have their favorite section(s). Some focus on how samphassa-ja-vedana arise and another may focus on how defiled cittas arise, for example.
• But they are all the same at the end. Vedana, sanna, arise simultaneously within each citta, i.e., within each vinnana. The word “kāya” here means “pancupadankkhandha kāya” (rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara, vinnana.)

6. I have also stated that understanding all that may not be necessary to become a Sotapanna (because one may have come close in previous lives and may have grasped it even without knowing.) However, generally, one must become “sandiṭṭhiko” to attain magga phala.

• However, it is absolutely necessary to understand all that to attain higher magga phala, because that is the basis of Satipatthana.
• Now, some, like Venerables Bahiya or Santati, may have done most of that work in previous lives and were able to get there quickly. 

7. I will explain these concepts in more detail in upcoming posts, even though I have already covered most of them.

• The issue is that no one is fully familiar with the concept of “distorted sanna” (especially the fact that it is built into anyone born into this world via Paticca Samuppada.) 
• That is why it is so hard to suppress kama raga, let alone eliminate it. But once one understands “distorted sanna,” one can see that it is all “mind-made” illusions! We all have been wasting our time watching a grand magic show. But the problem is that it leads to so much future suffering.

7. Let me point out another critical point. It is not necessary to try to “go back from right to left” in those “expansion charts” intentionally. Those charts are there to explain how a mind becomes defiled sequentially at a rapid rate. 

• But one must comprehend the mechanism. 
• One must live a moral life and abstain from akusala kamma to avoid going through too many of the “higher expansion stage” in the “nava kamma” region of the chart. This is the practice of “Ariyakanata sila.” 
• That is because when one sits down to meditate formally, one’s mind will still “wander around.” The more one practices Ariyakanata sila, the easier it becomes to keep the mind focused. Again, formal meditation means contemplating the essence of what is discussed above. For example, how we chase mirages all day, trying to acquire more sensory pleasures (or to make money for that purpose.) Such efforts only take us away from the suffering-free mind. A puthujjana‘s mind ALWAYS moves from left to right on those charts, i.e., away from the “paccupaṭṭhita sati” and thereby away from the “suffering-free” pabhassara mind.

8. The Buddha clearly stated that his teachings have never been known to the world. That statement must be taken seriously. Most people try to interpret his teachings in mundane ways. A Buddha will never teach anything that average humans can come up with. No average human (no matter how “intelligent” as measured by IQ, etc.) can figure out the fact that what is perceived as “pleasure” is really the cause of future suffering!

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dosakkhayo

[pathfinder]

Lal: Thus, one can get to the same “paccupaṭṭhita sati” (bahiddha vinnana) by contemplating the origin of vedana (which means the origin of samphassa-ja-vedana.)

I see! This links well to the previous line: Samudayadhammānupassī vā vedanāsu viharati, vayadhammānupassī vā vedanāsu viharati, samudayavayadhammānupassī vā vedanāsu viharati – which also talks about contemplating the origins of vedana. I can roughly see how the words would come together to form this interpretation, it makes sense as well. Thank you for the breakdown! 🙏

 

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dosakkhayo

[dosakkhayo]

Is anariya samatha a temporary suppression of ajjhatta vinnana regarding the pleasures of kamaloka? If so, how is this possible? How can simply focusing the mind on a neutral object suppress ajjhatta vinnana? Perhaps this is why attaining jhana is difficult.

[Lal]

No. An anariya yogi‘s (or any puthujjana‘s) mind ALWAYS gets to the ajjhatta stage. The mind can be stopped at the bahiddha stage, only by a Sotapanna practicing Satipatthana. P.S. When a Sotapanna successfully does that, he becomes an Anagami. P.P.S. However, understanding this process (even without stopping at the bahiddha stage) can help a puthujjana reach the Sotapanna stage because now one becomes a “sandiṭṭhiko.”

•  Simply focusing the mind on a neutral object forces the mind NOT to focus on immoral thoughts (i.e., avoid such arammana) at the beginning of a “meditation session.” This avoids vitakka/vicara with immoral thoughts.
• Then, he must also focus on “mundane moral thoughts” (savitakka/savicara) to force the mind (vinnana) in the upward direction (in the “nava kamma” stage) in the charts I discussed on August 13, 2024, at 8:50 pm, above. Usually, they practice “mundane meditations” like “mundane metta” (may all beings be happy and free of suffering, etc.)
• That forces the mind to latch onto the higher rupa loka mindset at some point. It could take years of effort. Furthermore, they must avoid “mind-pleasing sensory inputs” that trigger kama raga.

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Jittananto, Jittananto, dosakkhayo

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