[pathfinder]

I would like to ask about whether there is a need to “factor in time” in anicca, eg instead of saying “inability to maintain what we like”, and just say “undesired”.  Of course, one of the reasons why things are undersired is because they cannot be maintained. Lal’s words are in blue, the rest are of my addition.

Anicca – Inability to Keep What We Like

“Yam pi iccam na labhati tam pi dukkham.” “Yam pi iccam” means “whatever is liked or craved for.” “Na labhati” means “not getting.” “tam pi dukkham” means “that leads to suffering.” Here it is clear that icca means desire.

“The negation of the word “nicca” is “anicca” (“na” + “icca“), just like the word Anāgāmi comes from “na” + “āgāmi.” Therefore, even though we would like Nature to be “nicca,” in reality, it is “anicca,” i.e., it is not possible, in the long run, to have, to be with, what we like, and that is the root cause of suffering.” I agree that the opposite of icca is anicca, hence opposite of desire = not desired. However, icca itself did not have an aspect of time. Why are we adding this “long run” aspect to anicca, and where is the element of time stated in the line of “Yam pi iccam…”? Why not just see everything as undesireable in the first place without taking into account time?

“yadaniccam tam dukkham, tam dukkham tadanatta” (expanded to “yad aniccam tam dukkham, tam dukkham tad anatta”), or,

– “if something cannot be maintained (or managed depending on the case) to one’s satisfaction, suffering arises, therefore, one is helpless in the end.”

Here, we can also say “What is undesireable, leads to suffering. Whatever that leads to suffering, has no essence”, without need for time factor.

Anicca – Repeated Arising/Destruction

“uppāda vayattena anicca”,

which means “(this world is) anicca because we just keep going through the birth (arising)/ death (destruction) process”. Here, anicca can also just be interpreted as “undesireable”, without the “long run” aspect, since uppāda vayattena already explains this. Hence, we can use the fact that all things arise and pass to explain why things are anicca (disliked). However, the word anicca itself does not need to contain the element of time itself.

Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta – According to Some Key Suttā

Taṃ kiṃ maññatha, bhikkhave, rūpaṃ niccaṃ vā aniccaṃ vā”ti?

5. The first question was, “Bhikkhus: is any rūpaniccaor anicca?” or “Bhikkhus: can any rūpa be kept to one’s satisfaction or cannot be kept to one’s satisfaction?”

Here, based on the earlier arguments, it does not have to be that rūpa be kept to one’s satisfaction, but we can just interpret as “Bikkhus, are rupa liked or disliked in nature?” This will still be consisent with the rest of the sutta.

This can even be applied to the Girimananda Sutta (AN 10.60) .

Katamā cānanda (ca Ananda), sabba­saṅ­khā­resu aniccha saññā?

Idhānanda (Idha Ananda) bhikkhu sabba­saṅ­khā­resu aṭṭīyati harāyati jigucchati.

Ayaṃ vuccatānanda (vuccati Ananda), sabba­saṅ­khā­resu aniccha saññā.

Translated:

“Ananda, What is the (correct) (or anicca) perception of all saṅkhāra?

“Ananda, all saṅkhāra are like meatless bones, without substance, to be rejected like urine and feces.”

“That is Ananda, how one should perceive all saṅkhāra. (or how one has the anicca sanna)”

Again, we do not need to interpret anicca with the element of time to be consisent with the sutta, the anicca sanna can just be that things are not to our liking.

I understand that Lal has explained the different meanings of anicca in these 4 links:

• Anicca – Inability to Keep What We Like

• Anicca – Repeated Arising/Destruction
• Anicca – Worthlessness of Worldly Things
• Anicca – The Incessant Distress (“Pīḷana”)

However, I would like to share a slightly different way to contemplate on things, which is that they are anicca (undesired). The fact that things cannot be mantained may not need to be the main point of contemplation. I am sharing this because I personally find it difficult to use this to contemplate on somethings, eg eating ice cream. “So what if it cannot be mantained? I get to feel pleasure for a short moment and satisfy my desires” is what I would think. I find it more effective to contemplate on the “heating up of the mind” that I feel when I desire something. Additionally, simplifying “anicca” to be “undesireable”, and then understanding why it is undesireable subsequently, can give you a slightly different interpretation that may be useful.

 All things are to be undesireable (anicca) because they

• Cannot be mantained
• Cause Incessant Distress / Generates “heat” in our minds
• Are worthless in the long run, even takes one away from the ultimate goal of Nibbana
• Liking can generate kamma which lead to rebirth

This is not to say that Lal is wrong in his explanations. I only hope to share a different perspective, and please correct my perspective if I am wrong.

[Lal]

Pathfinder:“I agree that the opposite of icca is anicca, hence opposite of desire = not desired. However, icca itself did not have an aspect of time. Why are we adding this “long run” aspect to anicca, and where is the element of time stated in the line of “Yam pi iccam…”? Why not just see everything as undesireable in the first place without taking into account time?”

• There are many instances where one can fulfill one’s expectations in the short term. For example, suppose one wants to become wealthy by selling drugs. They can become successful and become rich. In some cases, they may even avoid getting caught until death. It seems that they got their desire fulfilled. However, they will pay for the damage done to ruin many lives in the future. So, being able to live a luxurious life for even 50 years will be minuscule if reborn as an animal or worse due to that immoral actions of selling drugs.
• The same applies to the next few verses quoted. Kamma vipaka may take time to materialize.

Pathfinder: “The first question was, “Bhikkhus: is any rūpaniccaor anicca?” or “Bhikkhus: can any rūpa be kept to one’s satisfaction or cannot be kept to one’s satisfaction?”

Here, based on the earlier arguments, it does not have to be that rūpa be kept to one’s satisfaction, but we can just interpret as “Bikkhus, are rupa liked or disliked in nature?” This will still be consisent with the rest of the sutta.”

• Yes. That is fine. Nothing in this world can be kept as one desires.

Regarding the last part of your comment:

• Yes. There are many ways to understand the meaning of anicca. Different (but still related) meanings “sink in” to the mind of different people.
• The bottom line is this: We engage in various actions, hoping they will lead to happiness in the long run. But nothing in this world can provide that. This idea can be tested at various time scales. It may seem to work in some or even many cases (you study for an examination and pass with the highest grades, for example), but in the long run (through the rebirth process), such “wins” do not make much difference. 
• Temptations (based on “distorted sanna“) are extremely powerful. We all have read about how “highly-moral people” can succumb to temptations and take bribes, steal, kill, rape, etc. One can try to live a moral life, but without grasping the “anicca nature” and becoming a Sotapanna, it would be impossible to avoid some temptations. 

 

[Yash RS]

This is how one can grasp the true nature of the Sansara 

Firstly, Everything in this universe is a manifestation of energy, the cars, the trees, the food, etc. all have atoms as the fundamental structure according to science. If we go deep,we get up to the quark level. In Buddha Dhamma it’s the Suddhataka.

Now this energy is manifested in the Rupa as mentioned above and sentient beings in Kama loka give the highest priority to these Rupa i.e, Kama raga or prioritising Sensual pleasures derived from such a Rupa 

Anicca- nothing can satisfy permanently. It can be studied in 2 ways.

First, material objects deteriorate with time and if someone is attached to such a thing, he will suffer.

Second , even if that object is prevented from deterioration, it won’t provide permanent satisfaction. 

That is, No Rupa, vedana, Sanna, Sankhara, vinnana has the essence to provide permanent happiness/satisfaction.

And why is it so?

It’s because all these things are Neutral in nature.

Now let’s see why we pursue material things.

We perceive that there is beauty, fragrance, melody(in sound), taste, and touch( pleasure touch). And if any object provides such things, one would want to pursue it.

But the reality is these are creations of the mind! No beauty/ ugliness is present, no good smell nor bad smell, no good taste or bad taste, every material is of neutral nature. Here we see distorted Sanna, how our bodies create these things for the mind.

So if something has no beauty and we pursue it, will we be ever satisfied? Don’t “beautiful women” get divorced by their husbands? Why is the husband leaving that woman? he is probably bored of that face, the perception has changed, and now he might feel beauty in some other woman. The point is some other man would still find that woman beautiful who is being divorced by her husband!

Beauty is subjective and is not an intrinsic property of matter/ energy.

This is Anicca. Nothing has permanent happiness.

Even for taste and others.

So if one is running behind a mirage, will he be satisfied ever? Never. He will only suffer as no permanent happiness and constant wanting (Dukkha), therefore he is helpless (Anatta).

If one realises this , one attains the Sakadagami stage and doesn’t want to hold on to material things. He/she may still want to enjoy the feelings associated with those objects like taste for example.

If one realises it at a deeper level, one attains the Anagami stage. Now the person doesn’t crave for any sensual feelings. Note that pleasure can only be felt if you have the wanting for it, that is ,vexation in the mind, as pleasure is nothing but relief from vexation. 

If you want to eat chocolate and then you eat it, you will feel the taste as well as pleasure.

If you don’t want to eat chocolate and then you eat it,  you will only feel the taste and no pleasure! Same for any sensual feeling!

Even if you experience Orgasm, the same principle Applies, if you want that feeling and then you feel it, you will feel pleasure too. But if you don’t want that feeling and then you feel it , there is no pleasure at that moment but only the feeling.

The mind intentionally creates wanting, so that it can feel pleasure!

There is nothing of essence in Anything!

This is Anicca at a much deeper level .

The bottom line is, you don’t even need to include time for Anicca. Even if someone earns a lot by selling drugs and is Enjoying sensuality, Anicca is there even at that moment.

I hope you got the idea🙏

 

 

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Jittananto

[pathfinder]

Yash: “Firstly, Everything in this universe is a manifestation of energy, the cars, the trees, the food, etc. all have atoms as the fundamental structure according to science. If we go deep,we get up to the quark level. In Buddha Dhamma it’s the Suddhataka.“

Yes! With this we can understand that everything is a product of cause and effect at that moment.Eg every second a fire burns is a product of some oxygen, an ignition and fuel. Meaning every second is a new manifestation! Because the causes are used up every second – eg i have to replenish the fuel every second. That can be said for everything in this world, even for inanimate objects. Eg every second a gold bar exist, it is because of the causes that the gold bar is at that temperature, the electromagnetic energies present within the gold bar. This also applies to people as well. This is how we can be “unshakeable” with the passing on of parents, because instead of seeing them as fixed entities, we have to see them as a product of cause and effect at every single moment. Their passing is simply due to the changes in conditions. From this we can see the anicca nature, that whatever fixed entities we think we like are actually just products of causes at that moment and they continue to be subjected to cause and effect.

Yash: “The bottom line is, you don’t even need to include time for Anicca. Even if someone earns a lot by selling drugs and is Enjoying sensuality, Anicca is there even at that moment.”

Yes! I thought that looking that things are of Anicca nature at that moment, without caring if it will last or not, can give you new insights. For example, even if something can last forever, and hypothetically if i can live forever to enjoy it and there is no rebirth, and hypothetically there are no kammic consequences for desiring it, one should still not desire it (anicca as undesirable). This is because of the understanding that the craving is mind made, the object actually does not bring happiness at all. 

I have been thinking about how Bahiya gained enlightenment after one verse:

“Ditte Ditta Mattañ Bhavissathi ,

  Suthe Sutha Mattañ Bhavissathi,

  Mute Muta Mattañ Bhavissathi,

  Viññāte Viññāta mattañ Bhavissathi”

“Where there is seeing, there is only the seeing

  Where there is hearing, there is only the hearing,

  Where there is feeling, there is only the feeling,

  Where there is cognizing, there is only the cognizing.”

Here, there is no mention of rebirth, suffering, 4 noble truths, paticca samuppada, kamma, tilakkhana, and no mention that things are subject to changes. Which made me think that all these are not required at the bare minimum, one just has to understand that there is nothing more to the sense we perceive, and not create any more “mind made thoughts”. Of course, understanding of all the other things in the Buddha’s world view can help achieve this, but at the core essence it may not be required. Again I could be wrong, Bahiya could have gained this understanding somehow even before meeting the Buddha, perhaps in his past lives, but he does not have to remember it/ think about it to be enlightened.

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Yash RS

[Jittananto]

 

Pathfinder: “Again I could be wrong, Bahiya could have gained this understanding somehow even before meeting the Buddha.”

 

The power of the Paramis and Kusulas of the past is demonstrated by Arahant Bahiya, who was a bhikkhu during the time of Lord Buddha Kassapa. He deeply internalized the knowledge of Tilakkhana and practiced diligently, eventually achieving enlightenment in the era of Lord Buddha Gautama. This highlights the importance of persevering in our Dhamma practice. The exceptional accomplishments of Venerable Bahiya and Venerable Santati were the result of great efforts made in their past lives. Nothing comes without effort; this is the nature of the world.

[Lal]

Pathfinder wrote: 

“I have been thinking about how Bahiya gained enlightenment after one verse:

“Ditte Ditta Mattañ Bhavissathi ,

  Suthe Sutha Mattañ Bhavissathi,

  Mute Muta Mattañ Bhavissathi,

  Viññāte Viññāta mattañ Bhavissathi”

“Where there is seeing, there is only the seeing

  Where there is hearing, there is only the hearing,

  Where there is feeling, there is only the feeling,

  Where there is cognizing, there is only the cognizing.”

Here, there is no mention of rebirth, suffering, 4 noble truths, paticca samuppada, kamma, tilakkhana, and no mention that things are subject to changes. Which made me think that all these are not required at the bare minimum, one just has to understand that there is nothing more to the sense we perceive, and not create any more “mind made thoughts”. “

______________

The Buddha declared that Ven. Bahiya was the “highest in wisdom” among the disciples of the Buddha. 

• Explanation of the deep meanings embedded in those verses requires many. many posts. Rebirth, suffering, 4 noble truths, paticca samuppada, kamma, tilakkhana, are all embedded in those verses.
• I hope to make that connection in the new series of posts: “Meditation – Deeper Aspects.” The second post just posted, “Loka Sutta – Origin and Cessation of the World” explains why it is critical to pay attention to sensory inputs: seeing, hearing, etc.
• Our attachments to this world are triggered by sensory inputs. That is why the Loka sutta says it is the origin of the world. Once one understands how such attachments are triggered by “distorted sanna” it will be easier to avoid such attachments. That is why the Loka sutta says the arising of the world can be stopped by stopping the rebirth process by attaining Arahanthood.
• When the Buddha talks about the “cessation of the world,” he does not refer to destroying the physical world with an uncountable number of stars and planets, which is impossible. He means the cessation of the world for a given person. Once an Arahant dies, there is no rebirth anywhere in this world of 31 realms; that is the “cessation of the world” for that Arahant.

[Lal]

There is a series of suttas providing the names of the “greatest disciples of the Buddha” in various aspects:

• Bāhiya dārucīriya is in the “Tatiyavagga.”
• The series starts with: “Paṭhamavagga” 
• You can go through the whole series of eight suttas with the complete list.

[pathfinder]

Lal: Our attachments to this world are triggered by sensory inputs. That is why the Loka sutta says it is the origin of the world. Once one understands how such attachments are triggered by “distorted sanna” it will be easier to avoid such attachments.

I understand that without distorted sanna there will be no attachment. However this does not mean that Bahiya understood the concept of attachment in the first place. He could have just “fixed” his distorted sanna without knowing that it removes the attachment which causes suffering!

Lal: Explanation of the deep meanings embedded in those verses requires many. many posts. Rebirth, suffering, 4 noble truths, paticca samuppada, kamma, tilakkhana, are all embedded in those verses.

From here do you imply that Bahiya was able to comprehend the basic rules of kamma, that suffering arises from ignorance, the paticca samuppada process just from these 4 lines? It seems highly impossible for me. I agree that one can link all the above concepts to the 4 lines, but to be able to know the existence of the concepts, let alone understand them seems not possible. 

My interpretation is still that he was able to see the world as it is, and that could be bare minimum for enlightenment. There are many ways to explain the same truth, we may only need to see the truth through one aspect (in this case about distorted sanna), than needing to learn all other aspects. Perhaps, Lal, I could learn more from your upcoming posts if you do elaborate how every other important concepts are embedded in the lines and how Bahiya could have derived them.

Jittananto: The power of the Paramis and Kusulas of the past is demonstrated by Arahant Bahiya, who was a bhikkhu during the time of Lord Buddha Kassapa.

Could you point to me where you’ve learnt this? Thank you!

[Jittananto]

Here are the main sources :

Bāhiya Dārucīriya

Bāhiya Dārucīriya Mahāthera

• Of course, it is doubtful whether a person can understand the Dhamma so quickly. I will take the example of sport. Sometimes in sports, we see unknown athletes breaking the records of the greatest world champions. No one suspected their existence and yet they have indeed broken the records of those who were known to the general public. At first glance it is impossible but the fact is that this athlete probably worked very hard for many years before getting to where he is. He worked without anyone knowing about his aspiration to be a champion. It’s the same thing with paramis. Arahant Bahiya was not known to the other bhikkhus which is why they had asked Lord Buddha where he would take rebirth. Lord Buddha declared Bahiya as the quickest to understand which probably must have shocked many. Just like the unknown athlete who came to break the records of the most popular Arahant Bahiya worked ardently during Kappas to quickly achieve Nibbāna. The concepts of Paramis and Kusulas are still poorly understood by many Buddhists, which has led to a lot of doubt. It’s important to study these concepts to gain a better understanding, especially in cases like that of Arahant Bahiya.

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TripleGemStudent

[Lal]

Thank you, Jittananto. Those are excellent accounts, even though the translations of the verses are not entirely accurate.

• I encourage all those interested to read them, especially the second link Jittananto provided.
• You can ask questions after carefully reading them. Quote from the links and ask questions.

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Jittananto

[pathfinder]

Thank you. In the second link, the story seems much longer than the sutta that i read initially from sutta central, which only had 4 lines from the buddha but now it seems like the buddha spoke a lot more to Bahiya. How is this the case? Where can i find “longer” versions of suttas next time?

[Jittananto]

No problem Pathfinder! Yes, you can just search in the commentaries of the suttas, the Vinaya Pitaka and sometimes certain Jatakas. I recommend the books of Venerable Mingun Sayadaw for example great chronicles of the Buddhas, Nyanaponika Thera and other Theravada monks. If for example, you want to know in more detail about the different male and female arahants and how they were able to reach Nibbāna I suggest you read the Theragatha, the Therigatha (For women) and the Buddhavamsa (Great chronicle of the Buddhas).

[pathfinder]

In Bāhiya Dārucīriya Mahāthera, what is mentioned is as follows:

(1) “That being so, Bāhiya, you should train yourself thus: in seeing visible objects (any visible object), be aware of the seeing as just seeing; in hearing sounds, be aware of the hearing as just hearing; likewise in experiencing odours, tastes and tangible objects be aware of the experiencing of smelling, tasting, and touching, as just smelling, tasting and touching respectively; and in cognizant mind objects, i.e. thoughts and ideas, be aware of just as cognizant.

(2) “Bāhiya, if you are able to remain aware of the seeing, the hearing, the experiencing, and the cognition of the (four categories of) sense objects, you will then be one who is not associated with attachment, hatred or bewilderment on account of the visible object that is seen, the sound that is heard, the palpable object that is experienced, or the mind-object that is cognized. In other words, certainly you will not be one who is attached, who hates, or who is bewildered.

(3) “Bāhiya, if on account of the visible object that is seen, the sound that is heard, the palpable object that is experienced, the mind-object that is cognized, you should have become not associated with attachment, hatred or bewilderment, i.e. if you should indeed have become not one who has attachment, who hates, or who is bewildered, then Bahiya, you will indeed become one who is not subject to craving, conceit or wrong view on account of the sense object that is seen, heard, experienced, or cognized. You will then have no thought of ‘This is mine’ (due to craving), no concept of ‘I’ (due to conceit), or no lingering idea or concept of ‘my self’ (due to wrong view).

(4) “Bāhiya, if you should indeed become one not subjected to craving, conceit or wrong view on account of the visible object that is seen, the sound that is heard, the palpable object that is experienced, the mind-object that is cognized, then Bahiya, (due to the absence of craving, conceit and wrong view in you) you will no more be reborn here in the human world, nor will you be reborn in the four remaining destinations (i.e. deva-world, the niraya world, the world of animals and the world of hungry spirits or petas). Apart from the present existence (of the human world) and the four remaining destinations, there is no other destination for you. The non-arising of fresh mind-andmatter virtually is the end of the defilements that are dukkha and the resultant round of existences that is dukkha.”

Is this what the Buddha actually said? Because in sutta central I see only the following:

“In that case, Bāhiya, you should train like this: ‘In the seen will be merely the seen; in the heard will be merely the heard; in the thought will be merely the thought; in the known will be merely the known.’ That’s how you should train. When you have trained in this way, you won’t be ‘by that’. When you’re not ‘by that’, you won’t be ‘in that’. When you’re not ‘in that’, you won’t be in this world or the world beyond or between the two. Just this is the end of suffering.”

What were the Buddha’s actual words? Is the sutta central one just a condensed one, or does the link Jittanato sent have additional commentaries, with words not from the Buddha himself? If what Buddha said is only from what is written in Sutta Central, then I am still confused how one can derive an understanding of rebirth, paticca samuppada, kamma from those words alone in Sutta Central.

[Lal]

Pathfinder asked: “What were the Buddha’s actual words? Is the sutta central one just a condensed one, or does the link Jittanato sent have additional commentaries, with words not from the Buddha himself?”

1. The problem is that you focused on one of the deepest/most complex suttas. 

• I don’t think any of those translators understand the meaning of those verses the Buddha delivered to Ven. Bahiya.

2. Even in the case of many other suttas, “word-by-word” translations cannot provide the embedded meaning. Such suttas need to be explained in detail. 

• Most suttas are in the “very brief” (uddesa) or “brief” (niddesa) versions. They cannot be translated “word-by-word” but require detailed explanations.
• In the old days, bhikkhus would take a single verse or a few verses from a sutta like that and explain in detail in long verbal discourses. 
• Please read “Sutta Interpretation – Uddēsa, Niddēsa, Paṭiniddēsa” and “Elephant in the Room 1 – Direct Translation of the Tipiṭaka“

3. There will come a time when there are no Ariyas (at or above the Sotapanna stage) who can explain Buddha’s teachings. That is the end of Buddha Gotama’s Buddha Sasana.

• All the books of the Tipitaka will be there, but no one to explain them.
• Then, the world must wait for another Buddha to be born to learn the teachings of a Buddha. 
• That is why having a “kalyana mitta” to explain the fundamentals is a requirement to attain the Sotapanna stage: “Four Conditions for Attaining Sotāpanna Magga/Phala“

4. People who visit this website have wide-varying backgrounds. I do not know each person’s background enough to recommend specific posts/sections. One needs to scan through various sections. The following sections discuss fundamental concepts:

• “Three Levels of Practice“
• “Living Dhamma“
• “Key Dhamma Concepts“
• Also, I have discussed in detail some suttas: “Sutta Interpretations.”

5. Hopefully, this will also help clarify some of the questions you asked in other threads. 

• Please select a few posts from those sections (or any other section) and start asking questions from them if things are not clear.  That is probably a good way to clarify issues. 

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pathfinder

[pathfinder]

Thank you Lal for pointing me to the links. I was mistaken that suttas reflect the word for word utterances of the Buddha. They need to be explained because the Buddha probably spoke a lot more than what is relayed in the sutta. Likewise for Bahiya, a lot more probably went on than what is reflected in the suttas.

[Lal]

Yes. That is exactly right!

[TripleGemStudent]

Hello Pathfinder, I wish you and all of us living beings all the best. 

It’s informative seeing questions from forum members and answers from Lal and others. I really do hope forum members continue to ask questions. Not sure if I had the chance to welcome Pathfinder, Tayral and others to PD and forum, but would like to sincerely welcome you all. May we all be of help for all of us living beings attainment of nibbana.   

Thank you Jittananto for sharing and posting resources / materials related to Buddhism. From my experiences, it’s always a beneficial idea to keep an open mind about the teachings from different teachers and materials, but not to blindly believe in them. 

 

Pathfinder, you mentioned: 

“From here do you imply that Bahiya was able to comprehend the basic rules of kamma, that suffering arises from ignorance, the paticca samuppada process just from these 4 lines? It seems highly impossible for me. I agree that one can link all the above concepts to the 4 lines, but to be able to know the existence of the concepts, let alone understand them seems not possible. “<br />
“If what Buddha said is only from what is written in Sutta Central, then I am still confused how one can derive an understanding of rebirth, paticca samuppada, kamma from those words alone in Sutta Central”.

 

From one of the materials Jittananto posted, I found something of interest relating to this post:

 

PaccekaBuddha’s

Writing on PaccekaBuddha’s from the page:

“This is a term for an Arahat (s. ariya-puggala) who has realized Nibbāna without having heard the Buddha’s doctrine from others. He comprehends the 4 Noble Truths individually (pacceka), independent of any teacher, by his own effort. He has, however, not the capacity to proclaim the Teaching effectively to others, and therefore does not become a ‘Teacher of Gods and Men’, a Perfect or Universal Buddha (sammā-sambuddha). -“

What are you thoughts on SammasamBuddha’s and paccekaBuddha’s? Or more specially what do you think of how a SammasamBuddha or paccekaBuddha’s can come to the understanding / comprehension of the rules of kamma, Paticca Samuppada, 4 Noble Truths and other doctrines without hearing or listening to the teachings from another? It’s my understanding and belief that hearing / listening to even 1 line of the Buddha’s doctrine could be enough to help one to attain nibbana, especially from an Ariya, likewise from the Buddha. 

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pathfinder, Jittananto

[Lal]

TGS asked: “What are you thoughts on SammasamBuddha’s and paccekaBuddha’s? Or more specially what do you think of how a SammasamBuddha or paccekaBuddha’s can come to the understanding / comprehension of the rules of kamma, Paticca Samuppada, 4 Noble Truths and other doctrines without hearing or listening to the teachings from another? It’s my understanding and belief that hearing / listening to even 1 line of the Buddha’s doctrine could be enough to help one to attain nibbana, especially from an Ariya, likewise from the Buddha.”

A Sammasambuddha or a Paccekabuddha were also average humans (puthujjana). 

• The word puthujjana can be interpreted two ways (some words can have multiple meanings not only in Pali but in other languages, too). (i) “Puthu” means “many” or ‘majority,” and “jana” means “population.” Thus, in this way, puthujjana means “most people.” (ii) The word puthujjana may also come from “pothu” (meaning “not of much use” like the “bark of a tree”) and “janika” means to “generate.” Thus, it could mean “average humans who engage in foolish activities (because they are unaware of the teachings of a Buddha.) That latter meaning is evident in the “Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta (SN 56.11)“: “Yo cāyaṁ kāmesu kāmasukhallikānuyogo hīno gammo pothujjaniko anariyo anatthasaṁhito, yo cāyaṁ attakilamathānuyogo dukkho anariyo anatthasaṁhito.”
• Any Sammasambuddha, Paccekabuddha, Arahant, or anyone with magga phala would have started off as a puthujjana. They evolve into different paths. I tried to explain that in the post “Pāramitā and Niyata Vivarana – Myths or Realities?“

The below is extracted from that post:

9. A person who eventually becomes a Buddha starts as a scientist or a philosopher in today’s terminology. It is started via two paths, and both need to be fulfilled: “kim sacca gavēsi, kim kusala gavēsi“: investigations of truth and morality.

• Sacca (pronounced “sachcha”) means the truth; “kusala” is, of course, morals, and “gavēsi” is one who investigates. One starts with the intention of finding out how nature works, what morals are, and where morals come from.
• Even today, we can assign such labels to many scientists and philosophers. Of course, only a minute fraction of them will eventually become a Buddha or a great disciple, but that is how one starts.

10. That habit (gati) of looking into the truth and morals grows through successive lives. Most of them drop off due to external influences and unexpected circumstances. But those few who get to cultivate those gati keep cultivating them. As I said before, one may not have even heard of a Buddha for many eons while cultivating such gati. It is just that when one is on the right (or even wrong) path, nature starts guiding one: “Dhammō ha vē rakkhati dhammacāri.”

• By the way, one could start as a man or a woman, but only a man attains Buddhahood. This and several other things “that would not happen” are discussed in the “Bahu­dhātu­ka Sutta (MN 115)“.
• In our rebirth process, one could change sex. Sex change can happen even during a lifetime (these days, such transgenders are more common due to social influences).
• In the rebirth process, we have been born a man and a woman innumerable times. If I remember correctly, the Bodhisatta was a woman when she started cultivating pāramitā to become Buddha. But at some point (probably after getting niyata vivarana), he had been a male.
• There is a slight difference between males and females. That may not be politically correct to say these days, but that is the reality. One is a man or a woman because one has cultivated the corresponding gati.  No matter how many laws are passed, the military will always be dominated by men, for example.

11. In the Tipiṭaka, it says the usual progression of one’s character (gati) buildup is dāna (giving), sila (moral conduct), bhāvanā (mostly loving kindness towards others), and culminating in paññā (wisdom).

• While these main ones are being cultivated, others are simultaneously cultivated, and the set of ten is called dasa pāramitā. The others are sacca (truth), viriya (effort), khanti (patience), adhitthāna (determination), metta (loving-kindness), nekkhamma (renunciation), and upekkhā (equanimity).
• The process has been analyzed in great detail. For example, each of those ten grows into higher stages: upa pāramitā (middle) and paramatta pāramitā (ultimate). As one progresses through successive lives, such gati get amplified, and one advances to those higher stages.
• As we saw in the previous post, “Animisa Locana Bodhi Poojawa – A Prelude to Acts of Gratitude, “it takes an unimaginably long time to purify the mind and attain the perfect mind of a Buddha.

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Yash RS, TripleGemStudent, pathfinder, Jittananto

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