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4.1Does eye consciousness arise dependent on the eye and sights?”
“Cakkhuñca, āvuso, paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjati cakkhuviññāṇan”ti?
4.2“Yes, reverend.”
“Evamāvuso”ti.
4.3“If the cause and reason that gives rise to eye consciousness were to totally and utterly cease without anything left over, would eye consciousness still be found?”
“Yo cāvuso, hetu, yo ca paccayo cakkhuviññāṇassa uppādāya, so ca hetu, so ca paccayo sabbena sabbaṁ sabbathā sabbaṁ aparisesaṁ nirujjheyya. Api nu kho cakkhuviññāṇaṁ paññāyethā”ti?
4.4“No, reverend.”
“No hetaṁ, āvuso”.
4.5“In this way, too, it can be understood how consciousness is not-self.
“Imināpi kho etaṁ, āvuso, pariyāyena bhagavatā akkhātaṁ vivaṭaṁ pakāsitaṁ: ‘itipidaṁ viññāṇaṁ anattā’”ti
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Here, an argument from section 4.1 is presented on why vinnana is anatta. However, I don’t quite understand why this would make vinnana anatta. Could you please explain how I might understand this passage?
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In almost all suttas, the following holds.
1. “Cakkhuñca paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjati cakkhuviññāṇan” describes “seeing by a non-Arahant,” i.e., “seeing with a defiled mind.” Here, cakkhu refers to “cakkhayatana” (NOT cakkhu indriya), rupa refers to “rupayatana” (NOT the external rupa, but the “mind-made rupa” created by the defiled mind), and cakkhu viññāṇa means “a defiled seeing” (i.e., with an expectation.)
- Of course, an Arahant can also see, but that verse is NOT used to describe seeing by an Arahant.
2. The above holds for all six sensory events, including “Sotañca paṭicca sadde ca uppajjati sotaviññāṇan” through “Manañca paṭicca dhamme ca uppajjati manoviññāṇan.“
3. Also, “anatta” means “without benefit.”
- In the verses you quoted, Ven. Ananda explains that since both cakkhu and rupa are of anatta nature (not beneficial), cakkhu vinnana (which arises due to those two) is also of anatta nature.
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The part I don’t quite understand is 4.3 “Yo cāvuso, hetu, yo ca paccayo cakkhuviññāṇassa uppādāya, so ca hetu, so ca paccayo sabbena sabbaṁ sabbathā sabbaṁ aparisesaṁ nirujjheyya. Api nu kho cakkhuviññāṇaṁ paññāyethā”ti?”
How should this phrase be interpreted? Is the English translation appropriate?”
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Lal said: 1. “Cakkhuñca paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjati cakkhuviññāṇan” describes “seeing by a non-Arahant,” i.e., “seeing with a defiled mind.” Here, cakkhu refers to “cakkhayatana” (NOT cakkhu indriya), rupa refers to “rupayatana” (NOT the external rupa, but the “mind-made rupa” created by the defiled mind), and cakkhu viññāṇa means “a defiled seeing” (i.e., with an expectation.)
I think Contact Between Āyatana Leads to Vipāka Viññāna post should be revised.
#1
- Those six types of internal types of rūpā are “internal āyatana.” In mundane terms, those are our eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body, and mind.
- With those, we experience sights, sounds, smells, tastes, body touches, and dhammā (memories, concepts, and hopes). Those rūpā are external to us and “external āyatana.
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The translation of that verse there is: “If the cause and reason that gives rise to eye consciousness were to totally and utterly cease without anything left over, would eye consciousness still be found?”
- Yes. It is right.
- If cakkhu (“cakkhayatana”) ceases and becomes “cakkhu indriya” and rupa (“rupayatana”) ceases and becomes a true representation of the external rupa (as is the case for an Arahant), then cakkhu viññāṇa (“a defiled seeing”) will cease and one will only have “pure eye-consciousness” left (without any illusions or sanna vipallasa).
- This is what I have been trying to explain for more than a year about “distorted sanna.”
- The tricky point is that even an Arahant will see a beautiful woman as beautiful. That is because all human bodies (both physical and mental) arise (via Paticca Samuppada) to present that “distorted sanna.” But since Arahants have fully comprehended that “distorted nature,” their minds will not be attached to it. The same thing holds for other sensory faculties. In another example, honey will taste sweet for Arahants, but their minds will not attach to it even at the first moment (in the purana kamma stage). See “Purāna and Nava Kamma – Sequence of Kamma Generation.”
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Yes. I will revise that post.
P.S. I revised #1 of the post “Contact Between Āyatana Leads to Vipāka Viññāna.” As mentioned there, the difference between indriya and ayatana is explained in “How Do Sense Faculties Become Internal Āyatana?“
- The rest of the post “Contact Between Āyatana Leads to Vipāka Viññāna” may need revisions too. I will look at it later.
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Could you please explain how what you’ve explained connects with the analogy below?
Suppose there was a person in need of heartwood. Wandering in search of heartwood, they’d take a sharp axe and enter a forest. There they’d see a big banana tree, straight and young and grown free of defects. They’d cut it down at the base, cut off the root, cut off the top, and unroll the coiled sheaths. But they wouldn’t even find sapwood, much less heartwood.
Seyyathāpi, āvuso, puriso sāratthiko sāragavesī sārapariyesanaṁ caramāno tiṇhaṁ kuṭhāriṁ ādāya vanaṁ paviseyya. So tattha passeyya mahantaṁ kadalikkhandhaṁ ujuṁ navaṁ akukkukajātaṁ. Tamenaṁ mūle chindeyya; mūle chetvā agge chindeyya; agge chetvā pattavaṭṭiṁ vinibbhujeyya. So tattha pheggumpi nādhigaccheyya, kuto sāraṁ.
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If you replace the word “heartwood” with “wood suitable to make long-lasting furniture,” you can get the idea. In that analogy, a person trying to find such wood thinks banana trees are suitable because they are straight; it seems they are good for making furniture. But, of course, one cannot make furniture with a banana tree because it does not have a “strong core.”
- We attach to rupa (mind-made versions of external rupa like sights, sounds, tastes, etc.) only because we believe they have value.
- However, once one understands PS/Tilakkhana, one can see that those mind-made versions of external rupa have no substance or value.
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