Told a little differently

  • This topic has 4 replies, 2 voices, and was last updated 3 months ago by Lal.
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    • #46914

      Hello Dhamma frends, here are a few thoughts.

      The mind as a chameleon

      Entity human consists of human body, Gandhabba, Hadaya Vatthu and the connection to Nama Loka. (That would be the Kama Loka level or Kama Dhatu level)

      The human body houses the five senses, which are also associated with the Vatthu Rupas and the Mano indriya. Mano indriya can receive dhammā, from Nama Loka.

      So, if we now assume that we no longer have a human body, we would not have the five senses that trigger the Vatthu Rupas and the Mano Indriya with which we can receive dhammā from the Nama Loka.
      We would only have the Gandhabba, i.e. our Bhava body, and the Hadaya with the connection to the Nama Loka. (That would still be the Rupa Loka level or Rupa Dhatu level)

      Without Gandhabba, only Hadaya and Nama Loka. (That would be the Arupa Loka stage or Arupa Dhatu/Suddhāṭṭhaka stage.)

      These three Kama, Rupa, Arupa, are the Rupa connections, the Rupa stages of Namarupa…
      The Nama is the mental side where Namagotta and dhammā are found.

      When the connection between Hadaya and Nama Loka is broken, this can happen in the paṭisandhi moment and only then, Nibbana Dhatu is seized or, if Kammic energy is still present, arises; “With the death of the old Hadaya, the kammic energy creates a new Hadaya Vatthu corresponding to the recorded ‘Gati’.”

      So when we have Kamma in the form of Bhava tanha for Bhava Dathu Human, in Nama Loka, a connection to the new Hadaya Vatthu and then to Human Zygote is created. The birth process begins, human being in the form of a cell is present, which is animated by the Gandhabba, which currently only represents Hadaya Vatthu and some Rupa.

      Humans grow through Oja, food for short. The Gandhabba grows with you. It takes on similar shapes and appearance. First thoughts, pabhassara mind arises. The first thoughts are still Pabhassara citta. The Hadaya Vatthu, when the five senses function, produces abundant namagotta and dhammā, in Nama Loka, through the three san’s due to ignorance.

      This life-preserving instinct, combined with Anusaya, allows the thought/Citta, with (Lobha, Dosa, Moha), the three San’s, to generate thoughts, which accumulate again with (Abhi)sankhara, the Gati in the Nama Loka. With the greed for breast milk/food, tenderness, etc., the baby doesn’t get this thing, it uses the child’s power and cries to get its way. Even angry, it cries. And it gets it, believe me.
      The Gati grows, the “wrong views” and the “distorted saññā/perception” slowly form, more Gati arises, and the Citta becomes the pabhasara mind.

      Now the impurity, the Citta and the Gati grow rapidly, it is a rolling… in puberty, it takes on hellish proportions… Abhisankhara almost non-stop…
      The ego grows, the love for the body grows, the greed and if someone gets in the way,  they punch people even with hatred, etc.

      Now only the Noble Eightfold Path and Satipathana Bhavana help to purify the polluted mind.

      Between Nama and Rupa sits the Hadaya Vatthu and looks to either side like a chameleon, waiting with Pabhasara citta (mind). When an Arammana enters through one of the sense doors on the Rupa side, the Hadaya Vatthu produces a Pabhasara Citta.

      This thought, which is now already contaminated with “wrong views” and “distorted saññā/perception” linked to Pañcupādānakkhandha in Nama Loka, creates IPS and PS cycles with Abhisankahra. And reinforces the Gati, Anusaya in Nama Loka.

      So we use the Noble Eightfold Path to purify the mind.

      We learn the concepts mindfully and behave ethically. Don’t talk badly, think positively, make an effort when things get boring or difficult, but always be careful. All Sense doors and thoughts about them, observing at all times.. There are really many concepts Tilakkhana, san, Citta Cetasika, Magga Phala, Nibbana, Sanna, Sankhara, Vinnana etc. We learn and learn and this Non-stop… that merges into Satipathana Bhavana

      The Four Types of Satipatthana;
      1. Kayakammena
      2. Vacīkammena
      3. Manokamena
      4. diṭṭhiyā

      And when you develop and cultivate these four types of mindfulness meditation, you truly understand”…
      (And this cultivation can take a few years, depending on your level of Dhamma knowledge.)
      The Past and Present Gati, with which you can see the four types of actions that can be taken or taken in the past, present or future. These are: physical actions, verbal actions, or just mental thoughts and also life-sustaining actions. Each of these actions has its own results and conditions, through Kamma Vipaka, which influence your destiny.
      Or you understand the world with its many and different elements. From Suddhāṭṭhaka to Kama Dhatu.
      Or how to achieve Nibbāna through Jhana by an Arahant sinking into Samādhi Phala Samapatti and his mind finding salvation without the three sans: Lōbha, Dōsa, Mōha.
      And you recognize the harmony with the five basic elements, etc and the diversity of living beings as they are born in the different realms of existence.

      You will find that the auspicious nature is not in external things and that your thoughts are already contaminated before you become aware of them.
      This thought/citta, arising through a sensory intrusion (ārammaṇa) and through the five aggregates rupa, vedanā, saññā, saṅkhāra and viññāṇa, gives rise to the analyzing entity Mind. Now, when tanha is present, it leads to upādāna “remaining attached and actively responding to this ārammaṇa.” After a short time and a lot of training, you will become aware of this attachment. The initial attachment leads to mano sankhara (automatic), but then we begin to consciously generate vaci sankhara, which is when you become aware of the attachment. At this point, you are in control of it. The beautiful things of the world are not kāma, you create your kāma by thinking of these beautiful things (rāga saṅkappa), and they are designed to make you think of them.
      This world has helpers like Mara and Kamaguna to make the world attractive to you.

      So always be careful and know that your thoughts, a Saññā Vipallāsa, are distorted perceptions and are therefore already contaminated.

      Little training tip: Sit on a hill in front of a forest, with several trees not too far away, so that you can see the structures that the leaves produce. After a while, you will see familiar objects and faces. This is distorted Sanna, based on your Gati.
      The same thing also works with a cloudy sky. Become aware that you only see leaves, clouds, or structures. And no faces or shapes of familiar objects. Against the boredom. That’s a little practice to start with.

      More to come later…

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    • #46915

      Hi Tobi,

      Some of what you wrote is not correct. But please continue with your efforts to get a consistent picture.

      Here is one example. You wrote, “So, if we now assume that we no longer have a human body, we would not have the five senses that trigger the Vatthu Rupas and the Mano Indriya with which we can receive dhammā from the Nama Loka. We would only have the Gandhabba, i.e. our Bhava body, and the Hadaya with the connection to the Nama Loka. (That would still be the Rupa Loka level or Rupa Dhatu level)”

      1. A gandhabba can see and hear while outside the physical body; it can also receive dhammā from the nama loka.

      • But a physical body is needed to experience the “direct contacts” of taste, smell, and touch. (Compare that to seeing a tree, which does not need to make contact with the physical body directly. Light bounces off the tree and brings “an image of the tree” to the eyes. In the same way, sound from a car reaches your ears as vibrations that propagate through air, again not a direct contact.)

      2. The essence of a human is the gandhabba inside the physical body. If the gandhabba comes out of the physical body, that physical body is like a piece of wood. It does not sense anything. 

      • The eyes, ears, nose, tongue, and nerves on the body’s skin can only help us detect external signals (sights, sounds, smell, taste, and touch). They receive those signals and pass them to the brain. The brain processes those signals to a form that can be understood by the gandhabba inside.
      • If the gandhabba comes out of the physical body, it can still see and hear, but without the help of the physical body, it cannot smell, taste, or touch anything. That is the experience reported by those who had “out-of-body experiences”: “Mental Body (Gandhabba) – Personal Accounts.”

      3. The following posts may help clarify:

      Gandhabba Sensing the World – With and Without a Physical Body” and “Our Mental Body – Gandhabba

      4. It may be a good idea to have a summary page where you draw a picture and make notes to see how this complex process takes place.

      • Let me know if you have any questions on what I wrote above.
      • #46922

        Hello Lal.
        Yes, I know, it should just show the trigger path, like an equation when you delete it. Starting from people.
        Otherwise, I would have had to write down the paṭisandhi path with direct birth. But you’re right that it doesn’t work that way.
        I should have written that too, that it always starts at point one. I need more Time. Sorry sorry

        I’ll send a picture; please post it.

    • #46923

      Hello Lal,

      I have to add. What a great job you are doing with this website. Since it is very difficult to convey knowledge, I can see this even in such a small text.

      Regarding answer 1.

      A small note: The question is whether the GANDHABBA can really see and hear when the human body does not trigger. Since Iddhi powers or the right Cittas must first be present or stimulated by Nama Loka/pañcupādānakkhandha. Otherwise, with Nakose you would always see immediately. I see it’s all very complex and not entirely clear.


      Buddha Dhamma is very deep!!

    • #46926

      Hello Tobi,

      Yes. Buddha Dhamma is deep. But with an effort, one can understand, and it is worth the effort. 

      I briefly looked at your picture. It seems like a good idea but may need a bit of tuning. I will think about it and will let you know.

      Regarding your question: “The question is whether the GANDHABBA can really see and hear when the human body does not trigger. Since Iddhi powers or the right Cittas must first be present or stimulated by Nama Loka/pañcupādānakkhandha.”

      • No iddhi power is needed for the gandhabba to see and hear without the physical body. 
      • During heart operations, some people’s gandhabbas come out of the physical body. They watch the operation from the ceiling and later tell the surgeon precisely what happened during the operation. See “Near-Death Experiences (NDE): Brain Is Not the Mind.”
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