Elimination of Rupa/Arupa Rāga

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    • #51865
      dosakkhayo
      Participant

      The following is one that was forwarded from one of the Pure Dhamma Korea community.

      The realization that the craving for sensual pleasures (kama raga) is the universal cause of suffering in the human realm seems to be the key to eliminating kama raga.

      However, it remains a mystery to me how an anagami can eliminate rupa raga, arupa raga, and bhava tanha.

      This gives me the impression that I might be missing or misunderstanding a significant part.

      On the other hand, I also think it might be correct to leave that mystery aside and focus on ensuring that the first three samyojanas have been thoroughly eliminated and concentrate on removing kama raga.

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    • #51866
      Lal
      Keymaster

      1. One becomes an Anagami by realizing the drawbacks and adverse consequences of being born with a physical body that can cause ailments and diseases. In addition, kama raga generates incessant subtle levels of dissatisfaction and a sense of non-fulfillment. Even when reborn in a Deva realm, that second aspect is there, even though Devas do not have ailments or diseases. 

      • The drawbacks of rupa loka Brahma realms are even more challenging to comprehend. The mental states there do not have much suffering and mostly “jhanic pleasures.”
      • The “samapatti pleasures” of arupa loka Brhamas are even more subtle and long-lasting.
      • Thus, it is harder to lose rupa raga and even harder to lose arupa raga.

      2. The key is to realize that none of those “births/existences” are permanent. Unless one becomes a Sotapanna by comprehending the “big picture,” all those rebirths become useless because even the arupa loka Brahmas can be reborn later in the apayas.

      • That high level of “possible suffering” at the Sotapanna stage is easier to understand. That is what one must tackle first.  P.S. One can easily see the level of suffering in the apayas, at least in the animal realm.
      • It is difficult for a puthujjana to see the drawbacks of sensual pleasures, let alone those of jhanic and samapatti pleasures. That is why the Buddha realized it would not be easy to teach his Dhamma to humans.

      3. Still, seeing the “big picture” with all the realms can be beneficial. That way, one can start grasping the concept of “distorted sanna,” which clearly shows that all existences are “mind-made” (via Paticca Samuppada) and not real; they are all mirages in the sense they provide only “temporary relief” (in the higher realms) and do not lead to the elimination of suffering. 

      • However, one must first focus on removing the “immediate level of suffering.” 
      • Only a Sotapanna can start perceiving the drawbacks of jhanic pleasures, and even that happens only after grasping the concept of “distorted sanna” well. 
      • This reply was modified 3 weeks ago by Lal.
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    • #51869
      lagrade
      Participant

      It is difficult for a puthujjana to see the drawbacks of sensual pleasures, let alone those of jhanic and samapatti pleasures. That is why the Buddha realized it would not be easy to teach his Dhamma to humans.

      This is very interesting. I would like to ask you how a “puthujjana” could start seeing the drawbacks of sensual pleasures and thus remove the cravings? Our bodies are naturally built in such a way that we NEED certain amounts of sensory interactions. There is a loneliness epidemic going on in countries like USA and Japan for some years now and many people are suffering from touch deprivation which can lead to depression and PTSD. This underscores the importance of getting a balanced amount of sensory pleasures. Becoming addicted is a bad thing of course but depriving oneself of it also doesn’t seem like a good idea.

      Touch Starvation: What to Know

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    • #51871
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Lagrade wrote: “This is very interesting. I would like to ask you how a “puthujjana” could start seeing the drawbacks of sensual pleasures and thus remove the cravings?”

      • Yes. This is at the core of Buddha’s teachings (Paticca Samuppada.) 
      • I will be starting a new series of posts by next weekend, which could help you understand it.
      • In the meantime, see whether you can get some ideas from the post “Is It Necessary for a Buddhist to Eliminate Sensual Desires?

      Lagrade wrote: “There is a loneliness epidemic going on in countries like USA and Japan for some years now, and many people are suffering from touch deprivation which can lead to depression and PTSD.”

      • That holds only for puthujjana (humans who are not Buddha’s disciples or Noble Persons/Ariyas.) 
      • When one starts comprehending the “true nature of the world,” the desire for contact with “pleasurable experiences” and interactions with others diminishes. In fact, one would prefer less of a “social life” and more of “deep contemplation.” That is why most meditators seek seclusion. Again, this requires a lengthy explanation, and I hope to address it to some extent in the upcoming posts.
      • However, I must emphasize that contact with parents and others is essential for young children. Babies require cuddling and loving care, which are necessary for their mental and physical development. 

       

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    • #51883
      taryal
      Participant

      Dr. Lal, I would love to hear your critique of a related video that presents a perspective different from most:

       

    • #51885
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Yes. The video provides a glimpse into Buddha’s teachings. Even though a video cannot explain the fundamentals, it provides some insights.

      1. “Sexual urge” is built into our physical body as well as the human psyche.

      • In the same way, the sweetness of honey or the appealing smell of a rose is also built into our physical body and the human psyche in general. 
      • However, those are “distorted perceptions (saññā)” that get incorporated into our mental and physical bodies via Paticca Samuppada.
      • For those who have not read them, I have discussed that for about a year. See the posts after  8/5/23 in “New / Revised Posts.”

      2. The deeper aspect of Buddha’s teachings is that we can overcome those “distorted saññā.”

      • First, one must understand how it arises “naturally” via Paticca Samuppada.

      3. The Buddha called saññā a mirage in the “Pheṇapiṇḍūpama Sutta (SN 22.95).

      • When a thirsty animal sees the mirage of a “body of water” ahead on a hot Summer day, that is a “distorted saññā” arising in its mind. It is tempted by it, runs toward it, and ultimately may die of exhaustion. A human may get that same wrong perception. But a human is capable of disregarding it by logical thinking. 
      • “Sexual urge” or the “sweetness of honey” are also mirages. However, unlike the “distorted saññā” of a “body of water” on a hot Summer day, the sexual urge is not easy to dismiss. 
      • It is extremely hard to overcome that “built-in mirage” because we have all cultivated it through countless lives. The best way to overcome it is to understand how it gets “built-in” to our physical and mental bodies via Paticca Samuppada. 
      • Finalizing that analysis could take a few more months, but I can vouch that “distorted saññā” can be overcome. 

      4. That “distorted saññā” cannot be removed (at least while living day-to-day life), but one can stop being tempted by it.

      • Furthermore, that distorted saññā “goes underground” (or stays hidden) when one gets to samadhi and experiences the “sappabhāsa citta” or the “bright mind.” I have not yet discussed the “sappabhāsa citta,” but that is the closest we can get to the “pabhassara citta” or the “suffering-free mind” until we attain the Arahant stage.

      5. On a practical level, we know that sex is not essential for healthy living. Buddhist monks practice celibacy (they have taken a vow to abstain from sex), and I am confident that they are much healthier than average people.

      • Of course, 99+% of them practice celibacy without even having heard of the concept of “distorted saññā.” They do that with faith.
      • When one can see that it is made up by our own minds, it becomes much easier to disregard it.
      • This reply was modified 3 weeks ago by Lal.
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    • #51906
      taryal
      Participant

      Thank you! Do you plan to write part 2 of Aggañña Sutta? The English translations online are so basic and shallow.

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    • #51914
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Yes. But not anytime soon. It is more important to discuss the importance of “sanna” in panca upadanakkhandha.

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    • #51956

      The following is one that was forwarded from one of the Pure Dhamma Korea community.

      The realization that the craving for sensual pleasures (kama raga) is the universal cause of suffering in the human realm seems to be the key to eliminating kama raga.

      However, it remains a mystery to me how an anagami can eliminate rupa raga, arupa raga, and bhava tanha.

      This gives me the impression that I might be missing or misunderstanding a significant part.

      On the other hand, I also think it might be correct to leave that mystery aside and focus on ensuring that the first three samyojanas have been thoroughly eliminated and concentrate on removing kama raga.

      It might be useful to consider the four kinds of food, good householder, also on how the refined will be removed then.

      Puttamansa Sutta: A Son’s Flesh

      (Samana Johann)

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