December 12, 2017 at 1:17 pm #13197
When reading the Diṭṭhi Saṃyutta again and again I realized that the Buddha talks about pancupādānakkhandha, which is leading to micca ditthi. Whenever one gets attached to any of the pancakkhandha it gives rise to wrong views. An Arahant has no attachments anymore, hence no pancupādānakkhandha, hence no micca ditthi. Would you agree, Lal?
The other way round is also true? One with samma ditthi has no pancupādānakkhandha?… No. With samma ditthi onyl the strong micca ditthi are removed. Smaller or harmless ditthis remain. One needs to remove them on the Noble Eightfold Path. As one proceeds on the path: remaining ditthis vanish, attachments vanish, pancupādānakkhandha vanish.
December 12, 2017 at 1:43 pm #13199
Agreed. But we can put it in another way too.
When one attains the Sotapanna stage, one has removed the ten types of micca ditthi. He/she has also removed some of the micca ditthi associated with not comprehending Tilakkhana. Now one is on the Noble Path.
Furthermore, one becomes a Sotapanna Anugami when one has removed most of the ten types of micca ditthi, and HAS HEARD OR READ about the correct interpretation of Tilakkhana: anicca, dukkha, anatta.
The transition from Sotapanna Anugami to Sotapanna phala can happen anytime after that while one is listening to a discourse; the phala moment registers in the mind in a flash.
This special requirement about Sotapanna phala moment happening while listening to a discourse is something I still need to confirm with a Tipitaka reference. If anyone has that reference, I would be grateful.
It is possible to explain the same thing in many different ways.
- This reply was modified 1 month, 2 weeks ago by Lal.
December 13, 2017 at 1:38 pm #13213
Listening to a gradual dhamma-teaching and then there is the arising of the pure and spotless Dhamma-eye by al listenor, is mentioned in DN3§2.21, DN5§9, DN14§3.15, MN56§18, SN35.74 (numbers en §§ refer to DN translation Walshe en MN and SN translations Bodhi).
It is said that this arising of the spotless Dhamma-eye refers to Stream-entrence. Is this what you are looking for?
December 13, 2017 at 2:11 pm #13214
may you add the source from Sutta Central?
I cannot find: “DN3§2.21, DN5§9, DN14§3.15, MN56§18, SN35.74 (numbers en §§ refer to DN translation Walshe en MN and SN translations Bodhi)”
Or is there a link to another website?
December 13, 2017 at 2:26 pm #13215
You can read DN3, DN5, DN14, MN56, SN35.74 on Sutta Central. As far i know i cannot refer to alinea’s.
In the Digha Nikāya translation of Walshe i refer to this fragment:
“And as Pokkharasati sat there, the Lord delivered a graduated discourse on generosity, on morality and on heaven, showing the danger, degradation and corruption of sense desires, and the profit of renunciation. And when the Lord
knew that Pokkharasati’s mind was ready, pliable, free from the hindrances, joyful and calm, then he preached a sermon on Dhamma in brief: on suffering, its origin, its cessation, and the path. And just as a clean cloth from which all stains have been removed receives the dye perfectly, so in the Brahmin
Pokkharasati, as he sat there, there arose the pure and spotless Dhamma-eye, and he knew: ‘Whatever things have an origin must come to cessation.”
This fragment is quite the same in the other sutta’s, but only other persons are mentioned.
In note 140 Digha Nikāya, Walshe says: “The opening of the Dhamma-eye (dhamma-cakkhu) is a term for ‘entering the stream’ and thus being set irrevocably
on the path (…).
hope this is helpfull, kind regards,
December 13, 2017 at 2:31 pm #13216
see last sentences
December 13, 2017 at 2:44 pm #13217
Thanks Siebe! I got it now.
What I wanted to convey, is the link between micca ditthi and pancupādānakkhandha. Tanha leads to certain views about objects, feelings etc., that something is good/bad, important/unimportant, like/dislike … All these are wrong views. With stream entry one knows that and loses interest in such mindsets.
The pancakkhandha explain the arising and passing away of all we mentally experience. All is having the sankata nature. As nothing here is stable, all is having also the anicca nature.
December 14, 2017 at 7:16 am #13228
A sutta which made things more clear to me is SN22.89.
It makes clear, i belief, until someone is an arahant, with regard to the five clinging-aggregates a lingering residual ‘I am’ conceit, an ‘I am’ desire, an ‘I am’ obsession still remains in the mind.
So, this means (i belief), there is in the mind of everybody who is not yet an arahant a sense of subjectivity in the mind. It is the sense that an I or person does the experiencing, and is alive and will die. This sense of subjectivity keeps colouring mind and this colour keeps controlling also our reactions/behaviour. This remaining colour of subjectivity is the most deepest and intense fetter. The most hard to overcome. A sotapanna has not yet overcome this fetter.
So, although a sotapanna does not fully identify with the body (and other khandha) and does also not regard the body (and other khandha) as his possesion (my own) there remains that lingering residual “i am” conceit in him/her with regard to the khandha’s. There is is still a sense of subjectivity.
A arahant is even free from this residuel conceit “I am”, this residual longing “I am” and this residual obession “I am”. Mind is freed from every sense of subjectivity. Overcome is the deep ingraned habit to belief that a person or subject is living and experiencing. Until this moment avijja-anusaya is not eradicated.
So this shows also, i belief, avijja basically refers to the influence or fetter or habit that initiates mind to belief it is a person, a being, a self, an ego, a subject, who does the experiencing and who is living and will die.
The freedom of the conceit “I am” the Buddha called the greatist bliss.
December 14, 2017 at 9:21 pm #13232
“Listening to a gradual dhamma-teaching and then there is the arising of the pure and spotless Dhamma-eye by al listenor, is mentioned in DN3§2.21, DN5§9, DN14§3.15, MN56§18, SN35.74 (numbers en §§ refer to DN translation Walshe en MN and SN translations Bodhi).
It is said that this arising of the spotless Dhamma-eye refers to Stream-entrence. Is this what you are looking for?..”
Thanks, Siebe. Yes. There are many suttas where it is mentioned that one attained the Sotapanna phala while listening to a desana.
What I am looking for is the mechanism. This is what I wrote in the post “Four Conditions for Attaining Sōtapanna Magga/Phala”:
“3. September 22, 2017: Previously, I had stated that one could learn about Tilakkhana by reading these days. That is still true and one could become a Sōtapanna anugāmi by reading.
However, recently I came upon a dēsanā by the Waharaka Thēro which stated that a Sōtapanna anugāmi attains the Sōtapanna stage only while listening to a dēsanāby an Ariya (Noble person, i.e., one with at least the Sōtapanna stage).
Apparently, a Sōtadvāra citta vithi of an Ariya (during a dēsanā) has the necessary javana power to act as a trigger. I am trying to find a Tipitaka reference, and I would appreciate receiving it from anyone who has that information. I will edit this post to include that reference when I find it.
However, Waharaka Thēro has mentioned that listening to a recorded dēsanā should count, per his opinion.
The phala moment is triggered by an energy in the sound wave emitted by an Ariya (javana power of the Ariya). So, I think it should be in the Abhidhamma Piṭaka, where such details remain hidden.”
In other words, one cannot attain the Sotapanna phala by listening to the same discourse given by an anariya (i.e., one who has not attained at least the Sotapanna stage).
You can read more on javana power at:
December 18, 2017 at 5:56 am #13265Dr. J ChakmaParticipant
Sir, I think we can solve the question of whether a Soatapanna anugami can become Sotapanna: (1) by reading true Dhamma or (2) by listening to recorded desana by an Ariya or (3) only by listening to a desana directly from an Ariya, in an indirect way.
From the discussion at this “How to live a householder life with stream entry or higher magga-phala?” and your comment about Mr. Tobias G, I can assume that Mr. Tobias G has attained Sotapanna Stage (may this be a correct assumption). Now will Mr. Tobias, be kind enough to tell us if he has ever listened desana directly from an Ariya (e.g. Lal) or he has only read and listened recorded desanas from an Ariya. If he has never personally met an Ariya and listened to his/her desana, that we can safely assume that listening to recorded desanas of an Ariya, as late Ven. Waharaka Thero has mentioned is correct.
December 19, 2017 at 5:29 am #13272
Hello Dr. Chakma,
I have read Dhamma and listened to recorded desana from Lal. The changes I experienced are in line with the explanations of what should happen at the Sotapanna stage. So the probability is very high that I have attained Sotapanna magga phala and that recorded desana are sufficient.
December 19, 2017 at 7:26 am #13273Dr. J ChakmaParticipant
Thanks for replying and clarifying that learning (reading) true and pure Dhamma and listening to an Ariya is enough to get to Sotapanna stage. Whatever small doubt I had has been cleared with your comment.
And, it is really encouraging to know about the progress you have made in the Path.
May you go higher in the Path and till the Arahant stage in this life itself. I am also making progress, however, I am not yet there, although strongly hope to be there in future.
December 19, 2017 at 9:48 am #13275
Dear Dr. Chakma, thank you for your kind words! May you progress on the path. Success is guaranteed in this way.
June 29, 2022 at 4:24 am #38414LayDhammaFollowerParticipant
To Lal #13199;
one removes all micca ditthis only when attaining the Arahant stage.
Now, that you have published the very detailed post on vipallāsa, I would assume that this is wrong. Whatever upādāna sottapana has after phala is due to vipallāsa saññā and vipallāsa cittā, but not due to MICCHĀ DIṬṬHI. right?
June 29, 2022 at 7:39 am #38418
Yes. That is correct. I just removed that sentence in post#13199.
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