- This topic has 9 replies, 2 voices, and was last updated 8 months ago by dosakkhayo.
September 28, 2022 at 11:55 am #40583
Verse 1: Idha, mahānāma, ariyasāvako vivicceva kāmehi …pe… paṭhamaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati; vitakkavicārānaṁ vūpasamā ajjhattaṁ sampasādanaṁ …pe… dutiyaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati; pītiyā ca virāgā …pe… tatiyaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati; sukhassa ca pahānā dukkhassa ca pahānā pubbeva somanassadomanassānaṁ atthaṅgamā …pe… catutthaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati. Evaṁ kho, mahānāma, ariyasāvako catunnaṁ jhānānaṁ ābhicetasikānaṁ diṭṭhadhammasukhavihārānaṁ nikāmalābhī hoti akicchalābhī akasiralābhī.
Yato kho, mahānāma, ariyasāvako evaṁ sīlasampanno hoti, evaṁ indriyesu guttadvāro hoti, evaṁ bhojane mattaññū hoti, evaṁ jāgariyaṁ anuyutto hoti, evaṁ sattahi saddhammehi samannāgato hoti, evaṁ catunnaṁ jhānānaṁ ābhicetasikānaṁ diṭṭhadhammasukhavihārānaṁ nikāmalābhī hoti akicchalābhī akasiralābhī, ayaṁ vuccati, mahānāma, ariyasāvako sekho pāṭipado apuccaṇḍatāya samāpanno, bhabbo abhinibbhidāya, bhabbo sambodhāya, bhabbo anuttarassa yogakkhemassa adhigamāya.
English translation: When a noble disciple is accomplished in ethics, guards the sense doors, eats in moderation, and is dedicated to wakefulness; and they have seven good qualities, and they get the four absorptions—blissful meditations in the present life that belong to the higher mind—when they want, without trouble or difficulty, they are called a noble disciple who is a practicing trainee. Their eggs are unspoiled, and they are capable of breaking out of their shell, becoming awakened, and achieving the supreme sanctuary.
I’m looking for a sutta consisting of desana about samadhi for a layperson. But in this context, the sekha is bhikkhu. Right?
September 28, 2022 at 12:27 pm #40584
I think this sutta is important. It shows the “aṭṭīyati” quality through the “aṭṭhikaṅkalaṁ” metaphors. In addition, the listener of desana is a layman. So Buddha used a different expression instead of jhana.
““Seyyathāpi, gahapati, kukkuro jighacchādubbalyapareto goghātakasūnaṁ paccupaṭṭhito assa. Tamenaṁ dakkho goghātako vā goghātakantevāsī vā aṭṭhikaṅkalaṁ sunikkantaṁ nikkantaṁ nimmaṁsaṁ lohitamakkhitaṁ upasumbheyya. Taṁ kiṁ maññasi, gahapati, api nu kho so kukkuro amuṁ aṭṭhikaṅkalaṁ sunikkantaṁ nikkantaṁ nimmaṁsaṁ lohitamakkhitaṁ palehanto jighacchādubbalyaṁ paṭivineyyā”ti?
“No hetaṁ, bhante”. “Taṁ kissa hetu”? “Aduñhi, bhante, aṭṭhikaṅkalaṁ sunikkantaṁ nikkantaṁ nimmaṁsaṁ lohitamakkhitaṁ. Yāvadeva pana so kukkuro kilamathassa vighātassa bhāgī assā”ti.
“Evameva kho, gahapati, ariyasāvako iti paṭisañcikkhati: ‘aṭṭhikaṅkalūpamā kāmā vuttā bhagavatā bahudukkhā bahupāyāsā, ādīnavo ettha bhiyyo’ti. Evametaṁ yathābhūtaṁ sammappaññāya disvā yāyaṁ upekkhā nānattā nānattasitā taṁ abhinivajjetvā, yāyaṁ upekkhā ekattā ekattasitā yattha sabbaso lokāmisūpādānā aparisesā nirujjhanti tamevūpekkhaṁ bhāveti.”
I would like to know a detailed explanation of this sutta. Thank you.
September 28, 2022 at 2:50 pm #40587
P.S. In my first response, I had the definitions of sekha, and asekha reversed. The following is correct.
1. Question on the Sekha Sutta (MN53):
Verse 1 describes an asekha ariyasāvaka and verse2 describes a sekha ariyasāvaka.
– Sekha means “one who is on training,” i.e., someone who is on the Noble Path (i.e., above Sotapanna Anugami).
– Asekha means “one who has completed training,” i.e., an Arahant.
The verse “Yato kho, mahānāma, ariyasāvako evaṁ sīlasampanno hoti, evaṁ indriyesu guttadvāro hoti, evaṁ bhojane mattaññū hoti, evaṁ jāgariyaṁ anuyutto hoti, evaṁ sattahi saddhammehi samannāgato hoti” is explained in the “Apaṇṇaka Sutta (AN 3.16)”
2. The verses quoted from the second sutta, “Potaliya Sutta (MN 54)” compare our efforts pursuing sensual pleasures to a dog chewing on a meatless bone.
– “aṭṭhi” is a bone.
– Many suttas discuss this analogy. A dog thinks highly of a bone. It will fight other dogs to take possession of one and spends hours chewing it. It does not benefit from it and only gets tired at the end. Humans seeking sensual pleasures are no different. Such efforts only lengthen the rebirth process, where every birth ends with old age, disease, and death.
– I have discussed this in several posts: “Search Results for: aṭṭhiyati bone”
– Now, you can read the English translation in the link and get a better idea.
3. Please try to point to the place of the sutta using the format I have used (which breaks the sutta into sections/tabs). When you click on tab #, you will get the option to open the sutta at that verse in a different tab on the browser. Then use that link. I revised your links using that method.
– Also, provide the name of the sutta instead of just quoting the sutta number and make Pali verses in italics (select the Pali verse and click “i” on the Text Editor bar.)
– Spend the extra time for the benefit of others. (If the above instructions are unclear on how to open a sutta at a specific place, I can take care of it.)
September 29, 2022 at 3:40 am #40591
1. Lal said:
– Sekha means “one who has completed training,” i.e., an Arahant.
– Asekha means “one who has NOT completed training,” i.e., someone who is on the Noble Path (i.e., above Sotapanna Anugami).
I am a little confused. Because as far as I know, it’s the other way around.
Sekha means one who has to train yet. Asekha means one who doesn’t need to train.
So I’m confused about whether you misspelled it or I was wrong.
2. What I want to know is the following.
“Evametaṁ yathābhūtaṁ sammappaññāya disvā yāyaṁ upekkhā nānattā nānattasitā taṁ abhinivajjetvā, yāyaṁ upekkhā ekattā ekattasitā yattha sabbaso lokāmisūpādānā aparisesā nirujjhanti tamevūpekkhaṁ bhāveti.”
My question is whether this phrase is referring to samadhi.
– I read my previous question again. I saw some drawbacks in my writing habit. I didn’t know it when I was writing. I think it could be surely confusing to you. I will try my best to break this habit.
3. OK. Please check if I’m doing it well.
September 29, 2022 at 6:46 am #40593
1. Yes. You are correct. I had the two terms reversed. I corrected them above. Thank you.
2. “My question is whether this phrase is referring to samadhi.”
– Yes. It is.
– Samadhi can be at different levels. Samadhi comes from “sama” + “adhi” to towards a certain status.
– For example, Sotapanna has “Sotapanna samadhi.” An Arahant’s samadhi is different (higher level.)
– There are different types of miccha samadhi too. A master thief (while committing a theft) has the mindset of a thief. A murderer’s mindset is in “killer’s samadhi” during the killing, etc.
3. It helps if the sutta number is also given, i.e., SN 1.2, etc.
– I have a sutta in the right format (with tab numbers and side-by-side English translation). For example, when there is a question on SN 1.2, I just change the sutta number in the link.
For example, the link for the Sekha Sutta (MN 53) is:
– If I need the link for SN 1.2, I just replace “mn53” with “sn1.2”.
– You should also use that method. It saves time.
– So, please give BOTH the sutta name and the number. That way, there is no ambiguity.
September 29, 2022 at 9:12 am #40596
1. You’re welcome.
2. So can the context of this phrase be used as evidence that Buddha said samadhi, not jhana, to someone who is a layperson?
September 29, 2022 at 9:48 am #40597
“2. So can the context of this phrase be used as evidence that Buddha said samadhi, not jhana, to someone who is a layperson?”
I have explained the difference between jhana and (Samma)samadhi. Let me try to summarize.
– There can be pannavimutti Arahants who have completed Samma Samadhi without cultivating jhana. King Suddhodana is probably a good example. He is said to have attained Arahanthood close to the moment of death.
– There can be cetovimutti Arahants who get to the Arahant stage via Ariya jhana. Ven. Moggalana is an example.
– Also, there can be ubhatovimutti Arahants who had not cultivated jhana, get to the Arahant stage by pannavimutti, and simultaneously receive all jhanas and iddhi powers. Culapanthaka Thero is a good example here.
– There can be anariyas who had cultivated all four rupavacara jhanas AND the four arupavacara samapatti. They are NOT released from the apayas in future lives. However, they will be born in a Brahma realm at death. Alara Kalama and Uddaka Ramaputta are two good examples.
Samadhi and jhana are two different things.
– There can be miccha samadhi, too, as I explained above.
– In that particular sutta (Potaliya Sutta), the Buddha refers to those who attained Ariya jhana. We can say that they have both Samma Samadhi and Ariya jhana.
– But there can be Arahants who completed Samma samadhi but have not cultivated the four jhanas. But they may get to at least the first jhana at the moment of Arahanthood.
– Magga phala do not necessarily involve jhana. The sequence of getting to magga phala: Parikamma (P), Upacāra (U), Anuloma (A), Gotrabu (G), Path (magga) (Pa), and Fruit (phala) (Fr). Those are different stages of samadhi getting to the Gotrabu (change of lineage). See #14 of “Citta Vīthi – Processing of Sense Inputs”
September 29, 2022 at 10:07 am #40598
Yes, I understand that. To me, this is a clear fact. However, Korean Theravada group who follows the vissudhimagga seems to think that this explanation is not enough. Of course, there is no such thing as “a convincing explanation for everyone”. Because people can insist stubbornly on their views as much as they want. But there is a possiblity that someone can still try to listen to us. That’s why I have been looking for a phrase that clearly explains samadhi and jhana separately. For those people, this phrase will be invaluable.
September 29, 2022 at 11:01 am #40599
I see. The above information should be strong enough. See what their response is.
September 29, 2022 at 3:21 pm #40603
I see. I’ve been thinking about it. And I concluded your response is proper. I was thinking about how to deliver Dhamma to others properly. And your answer solved many miscellaneous problems. Thank you.
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