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If someone goes for fishing in order to enjoy that act, he would be accumulating apunna abhisankhara. But what if he is not enjoying it and just committing the act with a neutral mindset (while knowing about it)?
If someone is not feeling pleasure out of bad acts but has to do them in some extreme situation, won’t it generate any kamma?
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I think a sotāpanna can find himself in this kind of situation. He or she may do so because he or she is forced to feed his or her family to survive.
Venerable Amadassana Thero explained this in one of his sermons.
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Yash asked: “If someone goes for fishing in order to enjoy that act, he would be accumulating apunna abhisankhara. But what if he is not enjoying it and just committing the act with a neutral mindset (while knowing about it)?”
- Whether one knows about kamma/vipaka does not matter. Any kamma done with greed, anger, or ignorance of kammic laws (wrong views) is an apunna abhisankhara.
- However, a kamma done with joy is more potent than one done with a neutral mindset (for someone with wrong views.)
Yash asked: “If someone is not feeling pleasure out of bad acts but has to do them in some extreme situation, won’t it generate any kamma?”
- If this person is a Sotapanna (without wrong views), it still is an apunna abhisankhara. However, it is much less potent than the same action done by someone with wrong views. That is because a Sotapanna would not do it unless necessary in some situations. Also, a Sotapanna would not do it with joy.
- However, an Arahant will not generate an apunna abhisankhara under any situation.
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I found a story that supports Sir Lal’s point.
Story of Kukkuṭamitta the Hunter
“Friends, Kukkuṭamitta’s wife (a merchant’s daughter) had attained sotāpatti-phala while being a young woman and living still with her parents. Thereafter she followed the hunter to his home and had seven sons. Asked by her husband to bring the bow, the arrow, the spear, the stake, or the net, she would bring them to him. The hunter on his part would carry those weapons given by his sotāpanna wife and would commit the evil deed of taking life for long, day after day. How is it, friends? Do those sotāpanna individuals, the Noble Ones, too commit such a crime?”
Thereupon the Buddha said:
“Monks, the Noble Ones, sotāpannas, never commit such a crime as killing. The hunter’s wife brings him such weapons as a bow and arrow because she was mindful of her duty, the duty that the wife must obey her husband’s word. She had no intention to make the hunter go to the forest with the weapons in his hand for the evil act of taking life she had not the slightest idea of that sort.
- Kukkuṭamitta’s wife attained the Sotāpanna stage when she was still a young girl living with her parents. One day, she fell in love with a hunter and ran away with him, and they had 7 children. Her husband attempted to kill Lord Buddha, but she intervened, saying “Don’t kill my father.” Eventually, her whole family became Sotāpanna after listening to discourses. This story is further proof that jhanas are not necessary to attain magga phala. It also indicates that a sotāpanna can have a desire for sensual pleasures and contribute to unwholesome actions. Notably, she even took care of the arrows that her husband used, although not for pleasure, but out of marital obligation. A sotāpanna will never take pleasure in contributing to an unwholesome action.
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I think it was Ven. Moggallana who was trying to remove microorganisms from the water before drinking, but the Buddha said that it’s impossible to live in this Sansara without harming others. So wasn’t that act an apunna abhisankhara as the microorganisms would be killed?. But the Arahant doesn’t have any Upadana for harming others, so the kamma won’t generate. So with this logic it only depends on the Upadana for such acts. If someone gets a random thought of killing someone from past Memory,but that person doesn’t “attach” to that thought and cultivate anger, it won’t generate any kamma as there is no “liking” for that act . So why is it that if someone does something but doesn’t have the Upadana or liking for that act still generate kamma? An Arahant doesn’t generate any kamma at all because their minds are devoid of any Upadana. So even if an Arahant preaches dhamma which is the best way to accumulate punna kamma, he still won’t accumulate any kamma.
So this is what I am trying to ask. It only depends on the Upadana or “liking” for that act that generates kamma.
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I think it was Ven. Moggallana who was trying to remove microorganisms from the water before drinking, but the Buddha said that it’s impossible to live in this Sansara without harming others.
Do you know where this is mentioned in Tipitaka?
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“How the Buddha Described the Chance of Rebirth in the Human Realm“
It’s in this post but the sutta and the name is not mentioned.
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Waharaka Thero mentioned it in a discourse a long time ago. I searched for the sutta but could not find it in the Sutta Pitaka. It could be in the Vinaya Pitaka. It is not easy to search the Vinaya Pitaka.
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Yash asked: “So this is what I am trying to ask. It only depends on the Upadana or “liking” for that act that generates kamma.”
- Yes. That is true. Most “strong kamma” occur after the “tanha paccaya upadana” stage (i.e., in the “nava kamma” stage), as we have discussed recently: “Purāna and Nava Kamma – Sequence of Kamma Generation“
- In the “Nibbedhika Sutta (AN 6.63)“: “Cetanāhaṁ, bhikkhave, kammaṁ vadāmi. Cetayitvā kammaṁ karoti—kāyena vācāya manasā.” Here, it is essential to note that “cetanā” is “sancetanā” or “with raga, dosa, moha in mind.” With a defiled mind, one engages in defiled actions, speech, and thoughts.
P.S. Here, “. Cetayitvā kammaṁ karoti” means “one engages in kamma generation knowingly, consciously.” That happens after the “tanha paccaya upadana” stage or in the “nava kamma” stage.
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Everything happens due to causes and conditions.
- We all have done innumerable good and bad kamma in our previous lives.
- Kammic energies associated with them “wear out” over very long times, over many maha kappas or eons.
- They can bring their vipaka when appropriate conditions materialize. Thus, we can avoid some vipaka by avoiding “bad conditions.” In your example, the probability of getting raped increases if a girl goes out at night alone to a “bad neighborhood.”
- Some kamma (anantarika kamma) will definitely bring vipaka, without exception.
- Some kamma materialize simply because one is born with a physical body (due to a past kamma) and is subjected to natural processes. For example, most people living in an area affected by a flood or an earthquake may be killed.
- The subject of kamma vipaka is one of the four “incomprehensible things” (capabilities of a Buddha, subject of jhana, kamma vipāka, and details of the world): “Acinteyya Sutta (AN 4.77).”
P.S. Also, see “What is Kamma? – Is Everything Determined by Kamma?”
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I see, so kamma ripens when the right conditions are there. But the conditioning is not deterministic.
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There has been an incident of a gang rape case of a female doctor in India in kolkata. It has become a national issue. That doctor was brutally raped and then murdered, even her legs had been broken at 180 degrees apart! This all took place inside the hospital! I dont know how some humans can be full of such a mindset to cause such a harm to another human, especially the one whose job is to save others lives.
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Yash RS:Another person is another mind; another mind is another world.
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Kamma Vipāka can be active during Kappas or even Maha Kappas. Sometimes it takes the merits of another person to thwart a harsh Vipāka. Losaka Thera had prevented an arahant from eating during the time of Lord Buddha Kassapa. As a result of this action, he was born several times as a hungry Preta. Even when he became an arahant, he had difficulty feeding himself. Food would disappear! Venerable Arahant Sariputta had to hold his bowl for him to eat. On the same day, Venerable Arahant Losaka Thera entered Parinibbāna. See Losaka Tissa Thera.
See also the story of Venerable Bakula Thero. This is an example of Kusala Kamma which gives fruits of Maha Kappas later. He cured Lord Buddha Anomadassi from an illness. During the Sasana of Lord Gautama Buddha, he was declared the healthiest disciple. He never fell ill in his last life and he attained Parinibbāna at 160 years of age. Yet it is a good deed that goes back thousands of Maha Kappas.
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It is very difficult to see how Karma works, unless one is a Sammasambuddha, because during our time in samsara, there are so many punna/apunna actions that we have done. All of them have the potential to produce results in the future. And also karma occurs almost every moment through thoughts, words, actions. From this contemplation, I know how important it is to live in the present, not to mourn the past or yearn for the future. We must do anapanasati every moment until our Gati changes and moves forward. Developing on a spiritual level.
Sadhu, sadhu, sadhu
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Yash wrote, “I dont know how some humans can be full of such a mindset to cause such a harm to another human”
There used to be a time where whenever I hear about a tragic incident, I would be mentally agitated with anger and sadness. I still remember being utterly traumatized at the age of 8 when a woman poisoned herself to death in front of me. These days when I hear such news like rape case in India, mass shooting in USA, etc., I just say “Well, that’s sad. Let’s move on.” Is there a better way of reacting?
y not wrote, “Another person is another mind; another mind is another world.”
Each mind is deluded with Greed and Hatred. But some are conditioned so badly that they can’t help but act out of those defilements with no consideration of others. If my desires are unbearable and I can’t see any (kammic) consequence, why should I be afraid?
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Taryal: “These days when I hear such news like rape case in India, mass shooting in USA, etc., I just say “Well, that’s sad. Let’s move on.” Is there a better way of reacting?”
- No. You are right. That is the nature of this world.
- The Buddha described eight “worldly conditions/situations” (aṭṭha lokadhammā) that everyone (Ariyas or anariyas) encounters: Gain and loss, fame and disgrace, blame and praise, pleasure and pain.
- While an anariya may be exhilarated by four of them and saddened by the other four, Ariyas understand that is the true nature of this world and are not as affected. An Arahant is entirely unaffected by any of them.
- See “Dutiyalokadhamma Sutta (AN 8.6).”
Of course, we should have empathy for those who are suffering. But we must also understand that suffering (or joy) comes due to causes and conditions.
- What is critical to understand is that some “bad outcomes” can be avoided by being mindful, i.e., by ensuring not to facilitate conditions that can bring “bad kamma vipaka” to materialize. But some are unavoidable, and we must learn to ‘bear them” with a neutral mind.
- In the same way, one must do one’s best to create conditions for “good outcomes.” One must also enable others to strive for and reach “good outcomes.” (All in a mundane sense.)
- Those unaware of Buddha’s teachings try to blame others for their situations. It is not possible to make “everyone the same.” That is why socialism/communism failed in every country it was tried on.
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This reminds me of a quote by Buddha in Kakacūpama sutta:
Even if low-down bandits were to sever you limb from limb with a two-handed saw, anyone who had a malevolent thought on that account would not be following my instructions. This is often depicted as one of the torments of hell. If that happens, you should train like this: ‘Our minds will not degenerate. We will blurt out no bad words. We will remain full of sympathy, with a heart of love and no secret hate. We will meditate spreading a heart of love to that person. And with them as a basis, we will meditate spreading a heart full of love to everyone in the world—abundant, expansive, limitless, free of enmity and ill will.’ That’s how you should train.
Buddha was very serious about removing Hate, such that even if someone were to physically (or verbally) attack us or even our family members, we will still not generate any hateful feelings. This doesn’t mean tolerating abuse but a necessary means to purify our minds.
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