Regarding sotapanna Anugami with Jhāna

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    • #42172

      Theruwan saranayi

      1 does sotapanna anugami who has attained jhana just few times  that too for some small duration in his lifetime say 40-50 years would be born as “ brahma parisajja deva” either at * death of physical body with more Bhava energy left,, or at * next cuti patisandhi. The same question goes for sotapanna

      2 what is the minimum time duration of sitting which could be termed as 1st jhana of lighter degree?how can one would be in jhana(not samapatti)while walking when a part of mind attention is on coordinating body muscles,i.e mind is not fully focused on dhyana arāmana.

      3 Is comfortable body feeling, lightness in body, hands,cooling sensation in forehead,symptoms like slight disappearing of body SURELY means that one has reached 1st jhana of at least lighter degree?

      4 Is dhyana 1 is savitharka savichara(>50%) that is to say mind may be interrupted in b/w by raga dosa moha cetiskas pancanivarana or by pancadvara CV ref: revealing the real Buddhism season 1 episode 6 rev Abhaya thero english at 25:30 YouTube.

      I know that jhana is not necessary for magga phala, but is required if one is an ariya below sakdagami and does not in any case want to be pulled in human womb ever again,the thought that Gandhabba would be pulled in human womb unknowingly is fearful human life is filled with lots of dukkha (wounds,diseases,fractures,dementia etc)

    • #42176

      Theruwan Saranayi!

      1. Yes. The duration of the jhana does not matter. As long as one has attained a jhana citta vithi, one has transcended the “kama loka.” Thus the yogi will be born in a Brahma realm. However, in the case of an anariya jhana, that is only temporary, meaning the yogi will return to kama loka at the end of that Brahma birth. But if one has ALSO attained at least the Sotapanna Anugami stage, that yogi will not return to kama loka.

      2. The duration of the time does not matter, as explained above. P.S. You asked, “how can one would be in jhana(not samapatti) while walking.” One can be in a jhana with even iddhi powers while engaging in physical activities. It is only in a jhana samapatti that one is unaware of the surroundings; see the post referred to at the end. Note that there is an account in the Tipitaka where Culapanathaka Thero made 1000 copies of himself and worked with them at his temple; see “Are There Procedures for Attaining Magga Phala, Jhāna and Abhiññā?

      3. This is where many people come to the wrong conclusions. Jhanic experience is discussed in detail by the Buddha in “Jhānic Experience in Detail – Sāmañ­ña­phala Sutta (DN 2).”

      4. Details on vitakka/vicara and savitakka./savicara at “Vitakka, Vicāra, Savitakka, Savicāra, and Avitakka, Avicāra.”


      I just revised the post “Citta Vīthi – Processing of Sense Inputs,” where further details can be found.

    • #42178

      theruwan saranai

      I am sorry I am taking your time again noble friend, but I desperately need jhana because I do not want to be pulled in human womb again and getting to sakdagami stage is a very big task compared to getting jhāna ONCE or FEW times Ina lifetime.

      I fear death a lot. jhānic experience in detail DN 2 point no 3” you have written “ it should be noted that vitakka/vicara or kāma and akusala thoughts are not completely removed in 1st jhana”does this mean kamaraga or depressive thoughts can come to mind even in 1st jhana!!!

      CV would be like JAJAJAJJAAJJ where A= akusala citta,J= jhāna citta

      BUT in #10 of this post you quote AN4.123 “if he DOES NOT LOSE the jhāna(aparihino kālam)at the time of his death he is born among brahmakāyika devas.does this mean

      a)for an anariya would require to HOLd jhāna till the time of his death or cuti patisandhi to get to brahma realm.

      ‘BUT b) in case of an ariya( even for sotapanna anugami) if he attains jhāna ONLY 1 TIME  after getting to ariya lineage,he would be born in Brahms realm FOR SURE.

      Ariya purus +jhāna (once)=bhava breaking

      Sir pls mention a) if you are answering this with your own understanding,or

      b) you have read this in some abhidhamma book or

      c) you have listened this in some waharaka thero desana

      lastly sir I do karmasthana only,I make my own phrases in Hindi,I meditate on tanhakhayo nibbana,nirodhanuppasi viharati samudayam pajahati after reciting katmasthana 5 to 10 times SOMETIMES I get sensation in forehead,slight disappearing of body parts,does this indicate or CLEARLY MEAN that I have reached 1st jhāna of lighter degree.

    • #42179

      1. You seem desperate to attain jhana. My advice is to ensure you have reached the Sotapanna Anugami stage.

      2. I have explained in several posts that those with anariya jhana WILL return to the human realm and subsequently to lower realms.

      • On the other hand, one must be an Anagami to attain the FIRST Ariya jhana since kama raga is eliminated even in the first Ariya jhana.
      • But if even a Sotapanna Anugami attains an anariya jhana, they will not return to the kama loka. I think that is what you are after. But, here, you need to make sure that you have reached the Sotapanna Anugami stage. I am not saying you have not. I have no way of determining anyone else has reached ANY magga phala or jhana.

      3. Anariya jhana: Getting into a jhana and staying in a jhana are two different things. 

      • Some people could get into an anariya jhana and stay in it without effort. They had cultivated them likely in previous births in THIS human bhava. As I have explained, human bhava can last many thousands of years, and within that time, one will be born with a human body many times.
      • Some others may get to jhana by going through the gotrabu stage but may not have CULTIVATED that jhana. They may not even know that they have jhana. 
      • For a human, getting to the first jhana means temporarily transcending the human (and kama loka). Initially, that is only for a  couple of thought moments (citta). Then the mind “gets back” to the kama loka. Only with practice one lengthens the “time in the first jhana.” But the problem is identifying whether one has reached the jhana stage. 
      • As one lengthens the time in the first jhana, one can start feeling those bodily experiences described in the Samannaphala Sutta. So, this may not be an easy task for someone who has not cultivated jhana in previous lives.

      4. I don’t know whether I have reached anariya jhana, and I don’t care either. I don’t spend any time on that. I experience bodily sensations close to that once in a while when I am deeply engaged in Vipassana. I am close to the Anagami stage, which has been my goal. 

      • An excellent example from the Tipitaka that I often cite is Devadatta. He attained not only all anariya jhana/samapatti but also iddhi powers. But he lost all that and was born in an apaya. 
      • That is what I mean by “losing an anariya jhana.” It is not permanent in the sense one can lose it if kama raga or patigha becomes strong; they had not removed kama raga anusaya or patigha anusaya. That can happen even at the cuti-patisandhi moment when kammic energy brings an arammana to mind.
      • Āsava, Anusaya, and Gati (Gathi)

      5. The bottom line is the following. It is better to spend time comprehending Four Noble Truths/Paticca Samuppada/ Tilakkhana and ensuring that one has reached the Sotapanna Anugamai stage at least. “Paṭicca Samuppāda, Tilakkhana, Four Noble Truths.”

      • We all had cultivated ALL jhanas and gotten to the highest arupavacara samapatti INNUMERABLE TIMES in this long Samsara
      • One has to reach a magga phala only once. 
      • It may be worthwhile cultivating an anariya jhana if one is confident that one has reached at least the Sotapanna Anugami stage. No one else can confirm or deny that. One has to make that decision based on one’s experience.
      • The first magga phala that one can have no doubts about is the Anagami stage. No sensory input can perturb one’s mind if one has reached that. So, one can watch any X-rated movie, for example, without getting aroused. That is the ultimate test. 
      • To get there, one must first “see” the fruitlessness/dangers of remaining in the rebirth process at the Sotapanna Anugami stage; that is, getting to Samma Ditthi. Then one gradually DEVELOPS perceptions (sanna) about that danger and gets to the Anagami stage. That second step involves cultivating the “anicca sanna,” “dukkha sanna,” and “anatta sanna.” That is time better spent than cultivating anariya jhana.

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