[taryal]

Buddha’s stance on self can appear strange but it is really intriguing. I’m relatively new here so I would appreciate if someone could clarify the following queries I have regarding enlightenment:

1. The 5 aggregates are discrete, inconstant and illusory, i.e. they give the illusion of an “experiencer”. When one wakes up to this reality, they become enlightened. So if someone were to ask “Who attains Nibbana?”, how would a Dhamma practitioner respond?
2. How can there be free will (vaci and kaya sankhara) if there is no such thing as a self?
3. An arahant will lose the perception of self upon becoming enlightened. But they still exist and continue to live like a normal human (with an enlightened mind of course). Do they still have the personality/self attributes till they die?
4. It seems like an arahant’s mindset won’t be discernible to us till we become enlightened ourselves. In the Bahuna sutta, Buddha mentions that they have a “boundless mind”. Does that mean their awareness won’t be restricted to the 5 aggregates or simply that they won’t cling to them?
5. It is said that an enlightened mind can only be sustained by a dense human body. If so, how was Buddha able to travel to higher realms? I believe he used his mental body to do so. After leaving his physical body, should he not have instantly attained Parinibbana?

[Lal]

Hello taryal,

1. You wrote: ‘The 5 aggregates are discrete, inconstant and illusory, i.e. they give the illusion of an “experiencer”. When one wakes up to this reality, they become enlightened.”

• That is not what the Buddha taught. Those who say those things are the ones who mistranslate “anatta” as “no-self” and further interpret that to mean there is no “experiencer.”
• There have always been two wrong views on two extremes: (i) One with uccheda ditthi believes that there is no rebirth, and with the death of the physical body, nothing remains or continues. (ii) The other extreme is to have “sassata ditthi“, i.e., to believe that there is a “permanent soul/aathma” associated with a person. Those are the only two views about existence in the absence of a Buddha.
• The Buddha rejected both. A “person” exists as long as that “lifestream” is sustained via Paticca Samuppada (i.e., until the root causes of greed, hate, and ignorance exist in mind.) Conditions brought about by sensory inputs trigger those root causes. At the end of the Noble Path is Arahanthood. An Arahant has no greed, hate, and ignorance left in mind. At the death of the Arahant, he/she attains Nibbana and will not be reborn anywhere in this world of 31 realms. See “What Reincarnates? – Concept of a Lifestream”.

2. This question is not applicable per #1 above. Any human has free will. 

3. You wrote: “An arahant will lose the perception of self upon becoming enlightened.”

• This is obviously wrong. Didn’t the Buddha (and many Arahants) live for many years and function as anyone else? One cannot live without perception (sanna.)

4. You wrote: “It seems like an arahant’s mindset won’t be discernible to us till we become enlightened ourselves.”

• An Arahant‘s mind is not hard to comprehend. It is like any other mind, but without a trace of greed, hate, and ignorance.

5. You asked: “It is said that an enlightened mind can only be sustained by a dense human body. If so, how was Buddha able to travel to higher realms? I believe he used his mental body to do so. After leaving his physical body, should he not have instantly attained Parinibbana?”

• There is a subtle “manomaya kaya” that sustains the physical body. Until the death of the physical body, that manomaya kaya is intrinsically connected to that physical body. But it is possible for the manomaya kaya to “come out of the physical body” temporarily. The Buddha traveled to Brahma realms with the manomaya kaya. While his manomaya kaya was in the Brahma realm, his physical body was on Earth, but they remained connected. That is exactly what happens in NDE situations described in the link below. Those experiencing NDE have their manomaya kayas move out of their physical bodies.
• Even these days, many people can experience NDE. See, for example, “Near-Death Experiences (NDE): Brain Is Not the Mind.”

Buddha Dhamma is deep. It takes an effort to understand “previously unheard teachings,” as the Buddha stated.

[Yash RS]

I guess Taryal, in #3 was asking about the perception of a self. Wont an Arahant realise that there is no “me”?

The arahant would perceive the world based on distorted Sanna, but not a self, right?

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taryal

[Lal]

Yes, Yash.

• Well before getting to the Arahant stage, one can see that there is no “unchanging self” (a soul in Christianity /or “atma” in Hinduism). Our experiences arise based on root causes (and conditions for triggering them). 
• When the root causes (greed, hate, and ignorance) disappear, no external sensory input, under no circumstance, can trigger generating attachment/repulsion to that sensory input. The key is the following: When one understands this at the Paticca Samuppada level, ignorance disappears, and that will make greed and hate disappear, too.
• It is impossible to stop greed/hate from arising without eliminating ignorance (avijja) by comprehending Paticca Samuppada. That happens in stages, and avijja is entirely dispelled at the Arahant stage.

In the above, why does “attachment/repulsion to that sensory input” play a critical role?

• When we attach to a sensory input, we act with greed, anger, and/or ignorance and engage in immoral (or unwise) deeds. This is the same as engaging in “bad kamma” or “generating abhisankhara,” which leads to generating “kammic energies” that can bring “kamma vipaka,” including rebirth.
• Paticca Samuppada describes that process.

_________

Yash: “The arahant would perceive the world based on distorted Sanna, but not a self, right?”

• That is correct.
• Furthermore, the rise of “distorted sanna” can also be explained by Paticca Samuppada. Each rebirth occurs with “distorted sanna” built-in by kammic energy!
• I tried to explain that in the section  “Sotapanna Stage via Understanding Perception (Saññā).” 
• However, that analysis is too deep for many. I will discuss that in simpler terms in a new series of posts.

_______

P.S. An Arahant also gets the “distorted sanna” because it is “built-in” to human birth. But Arahant’s mind will not be “fooled by it.” See, for example, “Fooled by Distorted Saññā (Sañjānāti) – Origin of Attachment (Taṇhā).”

• Each realm has a different “distorted sanna” according to Paticca Samuppada. That is why our minds generate the “sweetness of sugar,” we like that taste, but a pig would not get that sanna. A pig feels a “built-in sanna of a good taste” for rotten food!
• It is critical to understand sanna: “Saññā – What It Really Means.”

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Yash RS, Jittananto

[taryal]

Dr. Lal, thank you for the response. I went through your explanations in this thread and read a few other pages pertaining to this topic. Based on my understanding, I will try to summarize my response in the same format below:

1. So according to the law of Paticca Samuppada, it is not correct to say that ‘I’ don’t exist because I do. But I should also understand that what I perceive to be me/mine are the 5 aggregates which are not under my complete control. These evolve according to natural causes and not according to my desires. Of course, I don’t want to be born as a wild animal and get eaten alive. But if I have the appropriate character or gati, it can happen. The fact that majority of the discovered sentient beings are in the wild gives a clear sign that many of them have the existence they didn’t desire. So it is not fruitful to say that the 5 aggregates are “mine”. This almost appears paradoxical because how can I say that ‘I’ exist if the 5 aggregates aren’t mine?
2. Since the law of paticca samuppada causes a person to exist, a human does have free will?
3. Yash RS clarified what I meant. So each human has a built in distorted perception. What makes an arahant unique is that their perception won’t be defiled since they won’t attach to any sensory input. The 3 marks of existence (anicca, anatta, and dukkha) are crystal clear to an arahant’s mind which is why they naturally (or automatically) avoid generating mental defilements. This means that they do not take the 5 aggregates to belong to them or their “self” but till they die, they do have personality attributes.
4. I should have been more clear on this. An arahant obviously has a heightened awareness, right? What we can perceive with our senses is pretty limited, considering the complexity of the universe. For instance, the visible range is tiny compared to the wide electromagnetic spectrum. Even an unenlightened individual can use anariya jhana to increase their awareness. An arahant has perfected insight to the true nature of this world. So they should likely know, precisely, what Nibbana is. By that, would an arahant’s mind be discernible to us?
5. This is really interesting. People that do “astral travel” say that when they have an out of body experience (OBE), they are still connected to their physical bodies via a “silver cord” and as soon as they think about their bodies they are pulled inside. I wonder how “different” are the cases of Near Death Experience (NDE). Dr. Sam Parnia described that death is more of an ongoing process rather than an instantaneous event. When an NDE experiencer is temporarily out of their body, I wonder if they are still connected to their bodies like in the case of meditation induced OBEs and if so, at what point they become disconnected.

I agree that Buddha’s teachings are really deep and difficult to understand. As a 22 year old software engineer, I thrive with logic and reasoning but I also have many personal issues. I apologize for my confusions but most discussions of Enlightenment I find online are just philosphical arguments that only perpetuate my confusion. Hopefully, my understanding grows with time.

[Lal]

I am glad to hear from you, Taryal.

1. Most of what you wrote is correct. However, the following is incorrect: “But I should also understand that what I perceive to be me/mine are the 5 aggregates which are not under my complete control. These evolve according to natural causes and not according to my desires.” It is correct that the five aggregates play a significant role. However, we have control over it, especially after comprehending the teachings of the Buddha. See the post in #3 below.

2. Yes. This is what I referred to in #1 above. Once one understands the Paticca Samuppada (PS) process, we will know how to manage it. 

3. Again, mostly correct except for “What makes an arahant unique is that their perception won’t be defiled since they won’t attach to any sensory input.” The corrected version is explained in #9 of the new post of today “Vipassanā – Buddhist Meditation” Please read that. It is called “distorted perception” and not “defiled perception.” An Arahant would not have anything defiled.

4. Yes. An Arahant has a heightened awareness. That is because that mind is not defiled. As one progresses on the Noble Path, one’s awareness will increase. It is also true that even an unenlightened individual can use anariya jhana to increase their awareness because, at least while in jhana, their minds are devoid of kama raga. However, an anariya yogi would not know what Nibbana is until it is explained in detail by a Noble Person; of course, it could be easier for them to grasp those concepts once explained.

5. You seem to have read the relevant literature. The literature on Out-of-Body Experiences (OBE) is similar to those on Near Death Experiences (NDE). See “Manomaya Kaya and Out-of-Body Experience (OBE)” and “Mental Body (Gandhabba) – Personal Accounts.” This website has many other posts on gandhabba, manomaya kaya, OBE, and NDE. You can use the search box on the top right to look for relevant posts using those keywords.

I am glad you are interested in these issues at a young age. This is the best time to look into Buddha’s teachings. I wish I had started much earlier.

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Yash RS

[taryal]

Thanks a lot, Dr. Lal. I hope this will be my last post on this thread. I will try to summarize my understanding. Please feel free to correct me wherever I say something incorrect.

So Buddha rejected both no-self and self:

Why he rejected no-self:

A sentient being (or a ‘person’) has a perception of ‘me’ and is made up of 5 aggregates which came into existence via Paticca Samuppada process i.e. past causes and prevailing conditions. It would be incorrect say that they don’t exist when they obviously do. I exist as a human because of the past kamma that ripened and led to this existence. This existence, along with the associated suffering, is very real and unless I implement Buddha’s teachings, the future suffering (in the apayas) will be even more intense. So the uplifting part is that, as humans we have the ability to change our destiny.

Why he rejected self:

There is no unchanging entity that defines the essence of an individual. Both our physical and mental bodies are dynamic in nature as they change from moment to moment. Furthermore, we can’t choose what future existence we shall have as after the kammic energy of this existence is over, next existence is not determined according to our desire but via Paticca Samuppada process. Since most existence occur in the apayas, the 5 aggregates lead to suffering in the long run. So it would not be fruitful to say something is our self when it can’t be maintained to our satisfaction and lead to suffering in the long run. Hence, each lifestream does have uniqueness or individuality but it is not some immortal trait that can be relied upon.

What an arahant realizes:

After enlightenment, the arahant continues to exist, experiencing the world with the 5 aggregates (that came into existence due to past kamma) but they won’t cling to them. They know that these aggregates can’t be relied upon for their satisfaction in the rebirth process. Slightly different way of describing this is that due to Paticca Samuppada, past causes and prevailing conditions led to the existence of their physical & mental bodies which will continue to exist till they die. Past Kamma also led to a built-in distorted perception and while an average human would easily be deceived by it, an arahant won’t be. This is why an arahant’s mind won’t attach to any sensory input. They have self attributes like anyone else but having understood the Tilakkhana with wisdom, they are willing to give up the 5 aggregates and embrace Nibbana.

What happens after an arahant’s death:

The 5 aggregates cease to exist and their mind is merged with Nibbana which exists but not in this world. In Abhidhamma language, the conditioned elements i.e. citta, cetasika and rupa are replaced with the unconditioned element called Nibbana. Since the mind can’t grasp another existence, the lifestream now ceases to exist anywhere in the 31 realms. It is easy to misunderstand this by thinking it is some form of annihilation but since Nibbana exists and the 5 aggregates don’t define a “real person” anyway, it is actually the ultimate liberation.

This is one of the craziest concepts I have ever attempted to learn. It doesn’t surprise me that it is arguably the most misunderstood aspect of Gautam Buddha’s teachings. I still think this is not a 100% clear to me but I feel like I am getting closer. I will continue to read the different pages and discussions pertaining to this topic on the website. Thanks again, Dr. Lal.

[Lal]

Yes. That is the “previously unheard teachings” of a Buddha.

• You wrote, “This is one of the craziest concepts I have ever attempted to learn. It doesn’t surprise me that it is arguably the most misunderstood aspect of Gautam Buddha’s teachings. I still think this is not a 100% clear to me but I feel like I am getting closer. “
• That is exactly right. No average human can ever come up with that explanation (only a Buddha can discover nature’s hidden secrets). We can only see the truth of it (once explained by a true disciple of the Buddha who has understood that explanation.) Of course, each person must verify its truth by himself.
• One key issue with grasping that “worldview” is our built-in innate “distorted sanna” of an unchanging essence of a soul/atma.” Each birth/existence has that built-in “distorted sanna” (for liking certain worldly things) via Paticca Samuppada. That is why no scientist can ever figure out that “sweetness of sugar” is not real in the ultimate sense. Once one can see how that naturally gets built into our human bodies, one will have discovered the trick behind the greatest magic show. 

I tried to explain that in the section  “Sotapanna Stage via Understanding Perception (Saññā).” 

• However, that analysis is too deep for many. I will discuss it in simpler terms (using a different approach) in the new series of posts starting with “Vipassanā – Buddhist Meditation.”
• Please feel free to ask questions as you proceed. We are all here to help.
• It could be a good idea to scan through and read some posts in the “Paṭicca Samuppāda” section. The key is to get started. Each person’s background is different, so asking questions is critical. 

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taryal

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