November 12, 2019 at 7:05 am #25508
Please see #1:
“Rūpa is divided into two main categories of internal and external. The external rūpa constitutes one’s outer world. The internal rūpa is not the physical body, but the very fine pasada rūpa (cakkhu, sōta, ghāna, jivhā, and kāya) …”
Is the physical body external rupa?
November 12, 2019 at 10:06 am #25511
Tobias asked: “Is the physical body external rupa?”
The physical body, as well as pasada rūpa, are internal rupa.
– Pasada rūpa (cakkhu, sōta, ghāna, jivhā, and kāya) cannot function without physical eyes, ears, nose, tongue, and the physical body.
I see your point. I need to revise the post. Thanks.
November 12, 2019 at 12:49 pm #25515
November 12, 2019 at 1:28 pm #25516
Good point. May be that is why I had it that way.
But we need to take time and review the case for both sides. If anyone has ideas, please post.
November 12, 2019 at 2:08 pm #25517
We have the life faculty (jivitindriya), which keeps the body alive until death. Maybe the physical body is considered “internal rupa” until death because of that.
November 12, 2019 at 3:15 pm #25518y notParticipant
I have never gone to any depth into this, nor have I now – I am contributing my bit only because Lal requests it.
My first impression is that the physical body is external rupa in the sense that it not under our control, or so only to a minimal extent.
That is, with pasada rupa, once arisen, say sight ,it is then up to us to welcome or to abandon it. But the functions inside the physical body, say those of the digestive system or breathing, to give two instances, work perfectly well without our being even conscious of them. In that sense the body may be said to be external rupa. Also, at death, we take with us ‘all that made us up’ in the non-material sense, but the physical body we leave behind as ‘external’ to our true being.
November 12, 2019 at 8:30 pm #25521
OK. I had a bit of time to think about it. Here are two things to think about:
1. The categorization of rupa in the post, “Rupa (Material Form) – Table” is at the fundamental level.
– On that level “internal rupa” are in a category by themselves. Those are the pasada rupa responsible for actual sensing.
– Our physical bodies are made of the four great elements (maha bhuta): patavi, apo, tejo, vayo. Those “elements” do not belong to “us”.
2. However, a live person has control over his/her body IN CERTAIN aspects.
– For example, we can use our bodies to moral deeds or immoral deeds.
– Therefore, in Kāyānupassanā, for example, “Iti ajjhattaṃ vā kāye kāyānupassī viharati” refers to one’s physical body. That means stopping it for immoral deeds and to use it for moral deeds.
So, it depends on the context.
– In the absolute categorization, internal rupa would be pasada rupa.
– But in the context of Kāyānupassanā, for example, ajjhatta kāya refers to ones’s own physical body.
November 13, 2019 at 6:46 am #25522
What I stated above is essentially correct.
In the analysis of rupa in the post, “Rupa (Material Form) – Table” everything is put into “fundamental categories.”
Everything in our physical body (except for the pasada rupa and hadaya vatthu) are made exclusively from the four great elements (maha bhuta): patavi, apo, tejo, vayo.
Five pasada rupa and hadaya vatthu are made of the smallest units of patavi, apo, tejo, vayo, vanna, sadda, gandha, and rasa PLUS the energies imparted by the kammic energy (Those are the only “live” things in the body). See, “The Origin of Matter – Suddhātthaka.”
– That is why the physical body becomes inert when the gandhabba leaves at the death of the physical body.
– As Tobias pointed out, it is the jivitindriya that gives “life” to body parts in a “live person.” There are few other elements like jivitindriya that also contribute (itthi/purisa, and oja). All those are in the manomaya kaya or the gandhabba and created at the beginning of the human bhava (cuti-patisandhi moment) by kammic energy. Those are also listed in that post on the analysis of rupa.
That the pasada rupa are the “real” sensory elements (and not the physical eyes, ears, etc) is discussed in #12 of “Buddhist Worldview – Introduction.”
November 14, 2019 at 6:48 am #25529
Does jivitindriya belong to the gandhabba? But what/where is jivitindriya in the gandhabba? Is it part of citta or is it part of pasada rupa?
November 14, 2019 at 7:37 am #25530
“Does jivitindriya belong to the gandhabba? But what/where is jivitindriya in the gandhabba? Is it part of citta or is it part of pasada rupa?”
This is explained in the post (especialy #8), “Gandhabba Sensing the World – With and Without a Physical Body.”
November 14, 2019 at 9:59 am #25532
Thank you, Lal. That makes sense. So jivita rupa are part of the kammaja kaya and sustain the life of the gandhabba.
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