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In #6, “Those are citta/mano abhisaṅkhāra arising automatically due to his character/habits (gati) to be aroused/enticed by such visuals. Mano abhisaṅkhāras arise automatically according to gati and are the weakest form of abhisaṅkhāra.”
But Avyākata Paṭicca Samuppāda for Vipāka Viññāṇa
In #2: “One sees, hears, smells, tastes, makes body contacts, or a “dhamma” comes to one’s mind. These do not “just happen”; they happen due to reasons (causes). They come about due to kamma vipāka, and those thoughts that arise due to them are called vipāka citta OR avyākata citta, since they are kammically neutral.<br /><br />
Then, based on one’s gati (pronounced “gathi”), āsava, anusaya, one’s mind may automatically get interested in a sense input (called an ārammana), and may get attached to that sensory input. This happens within a billionth of a second and we DO NOT have control over that initial response either; manō saṅkhāra are generated AUTOMATICALLY in one’s mind. These are also part of the avyākata citta since they arise AUTOMATICALLY within the same citta vīthi.”–
I think either of them needs to be revised.
Javana of a Citta – The Root of Mental Power
It said: “#1 Javana Cittā Are Associated with Abhisaṅkhāra, Such javana cittā are responsible for abhisaṅkhāra, those saṅkhāra that are potent and will lead to (good or bad) consequences. […] #2 Vipāka Cittā Do Not Have Javana Power”
So, if mano sankhara is vipaka citta, it can not be abhisankhara. If mano sankhara could have javana power, the citta vithi process in “Avyākata Paṭicca Samuppāda for Vipāka Viññāṇa” should be revised. It said:
“16. In between citta vīthi, the mind is in the “bhavaṅga state”; see, “Pabhassara Citta, Radiant Mind, and Bhavaṅga“. That post is also a bit advanced, and I will try to make a new section on “simple Abhidhamma” in the future.
If you see someone not active and just staring into space (not really thinking or concentrating on an idea), then that person’s mind is likely to be in the bhavaṅga state (B in the figure). This is also explained in the post, “Citta vīthi – Processing of Sense Inputs“.<br />
When the mind switches from this bhavaṅga state to a picture that is brought to its attention, it takes three thought moments to “break away” from that bhavaṅga state and to focus the attention on the new sensory input.<br />
With the PD citta, the mind sees that it is coming through the “eye door” (cakkhu dvāra) and in the next citta captures that picture. This is the initiation of the avyākata PS process: “..vipākaṃ cakkhuviññāṇaṃ uppannaṃ hoti” in #8 above.<br />
17. Then, during the next two citta (“Sam” for samPaṭiccana, and “San” for santirana), the mind matches that picture (sense input) with its own gati and may get attached to it. This is what is described in “tasmiṃ samaye saṅkhāra paccayā viññāṇaṃ, viññāṇa paccayā nāmaṃ, nāma paccayā chaṭṭhāyatanaṃ, chaṭṭhāyatana paccayā phasso, phassa paccayā vedanā, vedanā paccayā bhavo, bhava paccayā jāti”.Then the person is “temporarily born” in a different state (a person with “alcoholic gati” will be born instantly as an alcoholic upon seeing his/her favorite drink), and may start a new akusala-mūla PS process, as discussed below.<br />
That decision to acting with avijjā based on that “matching” happens at the all-important votthapana (V) citta.”So, if mano sankhara can have javana power(i.e., can be abhisankhara), the explanation should say that mano sankhara is generated after the votthapana (V) citta.
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These are subtle issues. I probably need to rewrite the post “Avyākata Paṭicca Samuppāda for Vipāka Viññāṇa” (or break it into two posts) to further clarify. The following are the main points to keep in mind:
1. In that post, abhisankharas do not arise until javana cittas, following the votthapana citta. If the mind is attached to the arammana, then mano sankharas arise in the first two javana citta. Vaci abhisankharas arise in the third and fourth javana cittas, and kaya abhisankharas arise in the fifth javana citta. The javana power weakens in the 6th and weaker in the seventh.
2. However, the sankharas that arise in the previous cittas are not pure (unless one is an Arahant), even though they are not abhisankharas. That is because mano sankhara are defined as “vedana and sanna” and unless one is an Arahant one has “sanna vipallasa.”
Let me know if there are still some contradictions left.
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1. OK. 2. OK.
I’m confused because I don’t know why, until now, I’ve corresponded tanha to mano sankhara and upadana to vaci and kaya sankhara in my mind. I guess the second one you mentioned might have influenced me. It is too subtle. Or it seems that it might have been because the time interval between the revised content on the eng site and the reflecting changed item on the Korean website is long. Anyway, my problem is solved.
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I checked the chart in Icchā (Cravings) Lead to Upādāna and to Eventual Suffering.
It clearly counts all three abhisankhara as upadana.
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I have revised #1 in my previous comment as follows:
1. In that post, abhisankharas do not arise until javana cittas, following the votthapana citta. If the mind is attached to the arammana, then mano sankharas arise in the first two javana citta. Vaci abhisankharas arise in the third and fourth javana cittas, and kaya abhisankharas arise in the fifth javana citta. The javana power weakens in the 6th and weaker in the seventh.
Mano sankhara never get to the abhisankhara stage. But in a citta vithi, mano sankhara lead to subsequent vaci and kaya abhisankhara.
- That is because mano sankhara are DEFINED as “vedana and sanna.” Kamma accumulation starts only after the mind CONSCIOUSLY start generating sobhana/asobhana cetasika after the vaci sankhara (vitakka/vicara) stage.
- Vitakka/vicara means “start deliberating what to do.” Depending on the decision to attach with anger, greed, compassion, etc., different types of cetasika are incorporated by the cetana cetasika. That is the “kamma accumulation” stage leading to abhisankhara.
- I will elaborate on that in the new upcoming post.
P.S. Dosakkhayo wrote: “I checked the chart in Icchā (Cravings) Lead to Upādāna and to Eventual Suffering.
It clearly counts all three abhisankhara as upadana.”
- But the post does not say that mano sankhara are abhisankhara. Is that right?
- The chart in the post is correct. The “upadana stage” stage starts with the first javana citta and is strengthened through the seventh javana citta. Even though the first two javana citta have mano sankhara (vedana, sanna), those inevitably leads to upadana and kamma generation.
- These are subtle points.
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“Mano sankhara never get to the abhisankhara stage.”
OK. I think the Abhidhammic explanation gives me more confusion than clarity. Because it deals with too subtle issues, which are unnecessary to think about to attain maggaphala. Though I am not questioning Abhidhamma’s consistency with the other two Pitaka, it is good to re-consider the necessity of Abhidhammic level explanation. Of course, it gives higher clarity in some parts. But in terms of the whole, it has a counter-effect by disturbing the evenness of the resolution of the big picture. So I carefully suspect we might need to use Occam’s razor. I think I can complete compact dhamma in a day or two now, and I am thinking about how to translate it into English. So we can discuss compact dhamma further concerning Occam’s razor topic soon.
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Lal said: “But the post does not say that mano sankhara are abhisankhara. Is that right?”
Right.
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“Me” and “Mine” – The Root Cause of Suffering
10. There is nothing wrong with recalling past events. The problem arises when we attach to them and start re-creating those events in our minds to generate abhisaṅkhāra.
Kammā (which lead to kamma vipāka) generated in three ways: manō kamma, vaci kamma, and kāya kamma. They are done via manō saṅkhāra, vaci saṅkhāra, and kāya saṅkhāra. See “Sankhāra – What It Really Means.”
Mano kamma (our spontaneous thoughts) arise automatically according to our gati.
Vaci kamma (“talking to ourselves” and speech) arise due to conscious thoughts (done with vitakka/vicāra.)
kāya kamma also arise due to conscious thoughts and have the highest javana power because they involve moving bodily actions; see, “Javana of a Citta – The Root of Mental Power.”–
I’m worried that I’m pointing out too small a problem. In context, there is some possibility that mano sankhara could be read as abhisankhara. It’s a minor correction.
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Dosakkhayo wrote:
“Mano sankhara never get to the abhisankhara stage.”
OK. I think the Abhidhammic explanation gives me more confusion than clarity.
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That is not correct. Abhidhamma gives a clear explanation. I will write a post in the future. If someone else understands it, this is the time to post.
I don’t see an issue in the last comment of Dosakkhayo either. I don’t see any problem. You may want to explain what the contradiction is.
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OK. I read #44184 again, and I found I was wrong. There is no issue in the post ““Me” and “Mine” – The Root Cause of Suffering.”
Lal said: “Even though the first two javana citta have mano sankhara (vedana, sanna), those inevitably lead to upadana and kamma generation.”
So, in that context, we can deem the mano kamma can generate kammic energy that leads to kamma vipāka.
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About #44182.
First, to prevent unnecessary misunderstanding, I am not saying that Abhidhamma confuses me. Though I wrote, “I think the Abhidhammic explanation gives me more confusion than clarity.” I think the problem arose because I didn’t write it down in more detail. I’m sorry. I am not questioning the effectiveness of Abhidhamma. If we can get a proper explanation, we can appreciate the beauty of Abhidhamma. I am just saying that it has complexity. The problem is giving a proper explanation is really hard.
I am a pragmatic person. If we don’t have to go on a difficult path, and if it’s valid to approach it differently, I think it might be better to go on that path. But it is not the same thing with I’m saying that the difficult road is invalid. My concern is how to say the same thing more simply. And that’s why I choose to build compact dhamma.
At least we can agree on this point: In order to understand the Abhidhamma system, we have to learn many basic blocks(e.g., cetasika, citta vithi, etc.) and put a lot of effort into figuring out the meaning of the system. This whole process is not simple.
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I’m a person who likes to solve complicated things. But I also know that not everyone is like me. I wish puredhamma were known more. I hope more people can taste Dhamma, but the explanation (with Abhidhamma) is still challenging for beginners. There is a saying in the East. “No one can climb a three-yard height wall, but a child can climb a two-mile height mountain. Because the slope is gentle.” We don’t have to give up a deeper analysis. What we need is a staircase where beginners can climb step by step. This is what I wanted to say. The Abhidhammic explanation that already exists is sufficient. What we need now is a staircase.<br />
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I think it would be good to start by telling you what it means to learn the worldview. Like this video. -
Dosakkhayo wrote above,
until now, I’ve corresponded tanha to mano sankhara and upadana to vaci and kaya sankhara in my mind.
I also understand same.
Is this correct or not?
Asking this because, I did try to read this whole thread, But I don’t understand subtle Abhidhamma details very clearly. I am trying to understand dhamma at conceptual level absolutely clearly.
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“until now, I’ve corresponded tanha to mano sankhara and upadana to vaci and kaya sankhara in my mind.”
That statement is mostly correct. But after upadana step, javana cittas start with mano sankhara and get stronger before transitioning to vaci and kaya sankhara. Hopefully, the following will clarify.
In the post, “Avyākata Paṭicca Samuppāda for Vipāka Viññāṇa” see #15.
Up to the V (votthapana) citta, all cittas are vipaka citta. They only have only mano sankhara.
- At the votthapana citta, a decision is made regarding how to respond to the sensory input. If attachment happened (due to one’s gati), then seven javana cittas run to respond accordingly.
- The first two of those javana cittas only have mano sankhara. That means vitakka/vicara have not arisen yet.
- Abhisankhara accumulation (that can bring vipaka in future lives) starts with vitakka/vicara in the third javana citta. Then kaya abhisankhara generation is with the fifth javana citta.
- Thus, vaci and kaya abhisankhara are mostly associated with the javana citta #3 through #5 and weaken in #6 and #7.
- I just realized something that I need to look into. Kammic energy created in the first javana citta can bring vipaka in this life only. But #2 through #6 can bring vipaka in future lives, and #7 can bring vipaka only in the next life. That means javana citta #2 is strong enough to bring vipaka in future lives. Can that be due to mano sankhara? I will look into that.
- It is time to rewrite the above post by breaking it into at least two posts. A lot of information needs to be added to make it clear and consistent.
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Abhidhamma can be tricky due to the following reason.
Most of the fundamental FACTS about citta/cetasika/citta vithi are directly discernible ONLY to the mind of a Buddha. Not even Ven. Sariputta could ascertain those without the Buddha explaining to him. Once the Buddha laid out the basic framework for him, Ven. Sriputta and bhikkhus in his lineage were able to describe the bigger picture in detail.
- For example, how many cittas are in a citta vithi, and what are the seven universal cetasikas, etc.? Only a Buddha can see such things. Remember that a citta vithi with 17 cittas lasts less than a billionth of a second. No one but a Buddha can directly see the sequence of cittas in a citta vithi!
- What I summarized in the above comment needed to be put together by piecing together bits and pieces from different places in the Tipitaka or Waharaka Theor’s Discourses. In rare cases, he may recite a wrong number in a discourse, even by accident. Thus, we must keep checking and ensuring it all fits together without contradictions.
- However, it is a tedious task since there is no place in the Tipitaka with all that information in one place.
- Of course, we do have a mostly consistent picture. Now we are down to pinning down whether vaci sankhara starts in the second or third javana citta.
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I can’t say I know or have understood everything being discussed here, but is this one of the uncertainties / questions / main gist that’s being raised here?“Mano sankhara never get to the abhisankhara stage.”” In context, there is some possibility that mano sankhara could be read as abhisankhara.”
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1. It is essential to understand how kamma formation starts with mano sankhara and gradually “ramps up” to stronger levels of “kammic potentials.”
- Mano sankhara are defined as “vedana and sanna.” Here, only ditthi and wrong perceptions (about an arammana) arise according to that arammana and one’s gati. It is only a mindset—no vitakka/vicara at this stage.
- Vitakka/vicara arising at the vaci sankhara stage means “internal deliberations” about what to do about that arammana. Now, one starts to use one’s own words to deliberate. But no words are coming out, i.e., no speech.
- In the next stage, the kammic generation is stronger, and words CAN come out. This is the second level of vaci sankhara.
- Kammic energy generation is most intense at the kaya sankhara stage, where bodily movements become possible.
2. All vipaka cittas have mano sankhara. Vipaka can turn to kamma generation at the votthapana stage in a citta vithi.
- That process is described in the post, “Avyākata Paṭicca Samuppāda for Vipāka Viññāṇa”; see #15. See my comment on April 3, 2023 at 12:52 pm above. I have looked into the issue discussed there, and let me paste that comment and make the revisions:
3. Up to the V (votthapana) citta, all cittas are vipaka citta. They only have only mano sankhara.
- At the votthapana citta, a decision is made regarding how to respond to the sensory input. If attachment happened (due to one’s gati), then seven javana cittas run to respond accordingly.
- The first two of those javana cittas only have mano sankhara. That means vitakka/vicara have not arisen yet.
- Abhisankhara accumulation (that can bring vipaka in future lives) starts with vitakka/vicara in the third javana citta. In the fourth javana citta speech becomes possible.
- Then kaya abhisankhara generation is with the fifth javana citta.
- Like a runner starting slowly, speeding up, and then slowing down at the end, javana cittas become weaker after the fifth. Thus, sixth and seventh javana cittas are progressively weaker.
- Thus, vaci and kaya abhisankhara are mostly associated with the javana citta #3 through #5 and weaken in #6 and #7.
- Kammic energy created in the first javana citta can bring vipaka in this life only. But #2 through #6 can bring vipaka in future lives, and #7 can bring vipaka only in the next life.
- That means javana citta #2 is strong enough to bring vipaka in future lives. But it is NOT ENOUGH to bring a rebirth (called “janaka kamma.”) Thus, kammic energy generated in javana citta #2 with mano sankhara can ONLY bring vipaka DURING A LIFE in future lives, i.e., it cannot give rise to a rebirth.
4. I will rewrite the above post by breaking it into at least two posts in the future. But I just wanted to state that there are no contradictions. Feel free to ask questions if not clear. It is easier to convey ideas in a discussion. Then I can see where the “hang up” is.
5. As I mentioned in another thread, “Bahiya Sutta and Creation of Sensuality in mind,” it is essential to understand that the mind’s working is a mechanical process. There is no “unchanging person” accumulating kamma. It is a process that will continue until one can see how that process takes place. That will help get rid of sakkaya ditthi.
- As I discussed in two comments in that thread, the post “Seeing Is a Series of ‘Snapshots’” helps get rid of sakkaya ditthi.
- Of course, such an Abhidhamma analysis is not necessary to get rid of sakkaya ditthi. It is one way to get it done.
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Lal, Your explanation above is very helpful in understanding the taṇhā and upādāna at cittā level and also I can see the 4NT in above explanation.
I got very clear idea about this process now. Also, reading the recommended posts.
Everyone reading this please read above explanation by Lal. Lal you explained and help connect many dhamma concepts with above description; Including kamma vipakā, kamma generation, 4NT, Akusala PS cycle etc.
Thank you for you efforts to help us all everyday in getting more near to The Nibbāna🙏🏻.
Huge merits and mettā.
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Lal said,
Up to the V (votthapana) citta, all cittas are vipaka citta. They only have only mano sankhara.
At the votthapana citta, a decision is made regarding how to respond to the sensory input. If attachment happened (due to one’s gati), then seven javana cittas run to respond accordingly.
1. So, Basically whole dukkhā Samudaya starts at V stage due to mind making wrong decision due to wrong worldview, isn’t it?
Here, Wrong worldview = diṭṭhi/saññā/cittā vipallāsa regarding 11 components of PañcakKhanda.
Wrong decision = Trying to solve problem of dukkhā of saṅsarā within saṅsarā.
2. At Arhant Stage, ALL mano saṅkhāra are free from vipallāsa due to paññā and broken anusaya. So, for Mind with complete paññā, At V stage, there is no attachment to anything in any vipakā cittā, right?
3. All dukkhā starts due to mind not understanding 4NT. When mind tries to escape dukkhā experienced in saṅsarā within saṅsarā only, it is like jumping from one disease to another. That is the whole problem. Nothing in this world leads to permanent escape from dukkhā.
4. Mind creates prison for itself by befriending/Resisting vipakā.
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It is really eye opening to see that beings laced with ignorance wears handcuffs on their own.
This whole sentient existence is one big cruel joke.
1 user thanked author for this post.
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Lal, Your explanation above is very helpful in understanding the taṇhā and upādāna at cittā level and also I can see the 4NT in above explanation.
I got very clear idea about this process now. Also, reading the recommended posts.
Everyone reading this please read above explanation by Lal. Lal you explained and help connect many dhamma concepts with above description; Including kamma vipakā, kamma generation, 4NT, Akusala PS cycle etc.
Thank you for you efforts to help us all everyday in getting more near to The Nibbāna🙏🏻.
Huge merits and mettā.
===
Lal said,
Up to the V (votthapana) citta, all cittas are vipaka citta. They only have only mano sankhara.
At the votthapana citta, a decision is made regarding how to respond to the sensory input. If attachment happened (due to one’s gati), then seven javana cittas run to respond accordingly.
1. So, Basically whole dukkhā Samudaya starts at V stage due to mind making wrong decision due to wrong worldview, isn’t it?
Here, Wrong worldview = diṭṭhi/saññā/cittā vipallāsa regarding 11 components of PañcakKhanda.
Wrong decision = Trying to solve problem of dukkhā of saṅsarā within saṅsarā.
2. At Arhant Stage, ALL mano saṅkhāra are free from vipallāsa due to paññā and broken anusaya. So, for Mind with complete paññā, At V stage, there is no attachment to anything in any vipakā cittā, right?
3. All dukkhā starts due to mind not understanding 4NT. When mind tries to escape dukkhā experienced in saṅsarā within saṅsarā only, it is like jumping from one disease to another. That is the whole problem. Nothing in this world leads to permanent escape from dukkhā.
4. Mind creates prison for itself by befriending/Resisting vipakā.
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It is really eye opening to see that beings laced with ignorance wears handcuffs on their own.
This whole sentient existence is one big cruel joke.
sadhu! sadhu! sadhu!
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Yes. This is a meaningful discussion.
- The working of the mind is a mechanical process. It just responds to external stimuli (sensory inputs) mechanically. The response is according to the gati one has at that time. This is why the Buddha said that there is no “me” (un unchanging soul/atman type entity seeing, hearing at the same time, and responding to those sensory inputs.
- The running of citta vithi, once attached to a stimulus, would have gone in that direction if we did not have brains with a fully-developed neocortex. (Note: Animals, even those with small brains, do not have such a break. They just continue with the initial response. See “Triune Brain: How the Mind Rewires the Brain via Meditation/Habits.” I may need to revise this post; even though I made some revisions recently, I don’t think I read through it carefully. )
- The brain takes about a hundredth of a second to process the input, which pauses the uncontrolled progression of citta vithi and, thus, uncontrolled actions. It gives us the time to be mindful and stop pursuing sensory input.
- Again, posts like “Seeing Is a Series of ‘Snapshots,” “Brain – Interface between Mind and Body,” and those in the “Essential Abhidhamma – The Basics” section explain various aspects related to this issue.
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Yes. That process is described in the post, “Avyākata Paṭicca Samuppāda for Vipāka Viññāṇa”; especially see #15.
- Then read this thread.
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Lal said,
The working of the mind is a mechanical process. It just responds to external stimuli (sensory inputs) mechanically. The response is according to the gati one has at that time.
Three questions:
#1 Lal, that bold part in above reply is just conventional reality, right?
There is nothing to which that gati belongs to. It is due to defiled gati, mind behaves as if it is entity right?
This is what I was trying to say in bahiya suttā thread. It is due to adding san to sensory experience, “feeling/perception of me/mine” arises. San is there due to vipallāsa.
There is just a mind and a body. Which is connected via kamma viññāṇa.
#2 Mind (flow of cittā; each citta containing seven universal cetasika and other additional cetasika put together by cetanā cetasika) behaves as if it is entity, then it feels that other things belong to that constructed identity/entity, right?
For example, Mind feels/behaves as if it is body or that body truly belongs to it.
Then others things are then perceived as belonging/not-belonging to this constructed identity.
#3 So the feeling that whole is more then parts is ultimately wrong right?
#4 feeling/perception of some PañcakKhanda as being “me” gives rise to feeling/perception about other PañcakKhanda as either “mine/not mine”, correct?
Amadassana thero gives a good example of this phenomenon via example.
Consider feeling of “me” as ground floor of building and other things which are considered to be belonging to ‘me’ i.e. “mine” as floors constructed above that ground floor.
As paññā grows after Sōtapanna, top floor are slowly started to demolished, eventually the foundation of building i.e. ground floor is also permanently demolished at arhant phala.
I don’t recall the sermon right now.
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Yes. Your analysis is correct.
It can be analyzed in different ways too. Also, any analysis can go to deeper and deeper levels. That is why the Buddha said Paticca Samuppada is deeper than the deepest ocean. The deeper one goes, the more refined the picture that emerges.
For example, “lobha gati” can be divided into many different aspects. Some may have “lobha gati” for food (tastes), smells, sights, sex, etc.
- Such “lobha gati” may not “come to the surface” if the arammana is not strong enough and may stay hidden as “anusaya.” Thus, even if a small bribe may not be tempting, a larger one could.
- One removes strong defiled gati arising from “ditthi anusaya” at the Sotapanna stage. That is enough to “not be tempted” to engage in apayagami deeds.
As I said previously, real Vipassana is to contemplate such things. That is when the “unfruitful/dangerous nature” of this world of 31 realms (anicca, dukkha, anatta) sinks into the mind, and various layers of gati/anusaya start melting away. It cannot be done by sheer willpower! Of course, it helps a lot to stay away from sensory pleasures as much as possible. It would be impossible to avoid being a drug addict if one keeps associating with drug addicts, for example.
- Eventually, no gati/anusaya will be left at the Arahant stage. Thus, at the moment of death, an Arahant will not grasp “upadana“) any sensory input that is coming to the mind as a kamma vipaka.
- Many arammana can be mind-pleasing. But they all have undesired and un-envisioned consequences. But similar to a fish that cannot see the dangers hidden in bait, average humans cannot see the suffering hidden in sensory pleasures.
- Only by understanding the Four Noble Truths/Paticca Samuppada/Tilakkhana will one start seeing the “suffering hidden in sensual pleasures.”
P.S. LDF’s second comment on my statement: “This is what I was trying to say in bahiya suttā thread. It is due to adding san to sensory experience, “feeling/perception of me/mine” arises. San is there due to vipallāsa.”
Bahiya Sutta points out a different aspect. It explains how one becomes aware of a given sensory input. This specifically relates to Sakkaya Ditthi.
- It is not that “a person” sees a tree. When one looks at a tree, one does not capture the “whole picture of a tree” in one step (which would be the case if there is a “person seeing a tree” and may even be hearing a sound also at the same time.
- Seeing, hearing, etc., are just mechanical processes. A citta vithi can grasp only one part of that tree. Within a second, the eye takes many such pictures (just like a video camera taking multiple static pictures in a second). Then the mind puts it all together to get a “full picture” of the tree. But since it happens so fast, it gives the illusion that one sees a tree in “one shot.”
Let me copy and paste the following section from my comment on April 5, 2023, at 11:32 am above:
- The working of the mind is a mechanical process. It just responds to external stimuli (sensory inputs) mechanically. The response is according to the gati one has at that time. This is why the Buddha said that there is no “me” (un unchanging soul/atman type entity seeing, hearing at the same time, and responding to those sensory inputs.
- The running of citta vithi, once attached to a stimulus, would have gone in that direction if we did not have brains with a fully-developed neocortex. (Note: Animals, even those with small brains, do not have such a break. They just continue with the initial response. See “Triune Brain: How the Mind Rewires the Brain via Meditation/Habits.” I may need to revise this post; even though I made some revisions recently, I don’t think I read through it carefully. )
- The brain takes about a hundredth of a second to process the input, which pauses the uncontrolled progression of citta vithi and, thus, uncontrolled actions. It gives us the time to be mindful and stop pursuing sensory input.
- Again, posts like “Seeing Is a Series of ‘Snapshots,” “Brain – Interface between Mind and Body,” and those in the “Essential Abhidhamma – The Basics” section explain various aspects related to this issue.
– Here, “mattan” means “a brief moment/event.” Seeing a tree takes many such events. That is confirmed by modern science too. The eyes makes “saccadic eye movements” to capture different parts of an object. Google/Bing “saccadic eye movements” and read the articles and videos.1 user thanked author for this post.
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Lal, your explanation is very good and helpful. You say:
- Kammic energy created in the first javana citta can bring vipaka in this life only. But #2 through #6 can bring vipaka in future lives, and #7 can bring vipaka only in the next life.
- That means javana citta #2 is strong enough to bring vipaka in future lives. But it is NOT ENOUGH to bring a rebirth (called “janaka kamma.”) Thus, kammic energy generated in javana citta #2 with mano sankhara can ONLY bring vipaka DURING A LIFE in future lives, i.e., it cannot give rise to a rebirth.
What is the source of this? Is that described in Abhidhamma Pitaka?
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I have not looked in the Tipitaka, but it is a fairly standard interpretation.
- It could be in “Buddha Abhidhamma – Ultimate Science,” by Mehm Tin Mon.
- May be someone else can provide better references. I don’t have the time to look right now.
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Lal Said,
Of course, it helps a lot to stay away from sensory pleasures as much as possible.
Many people miss the meaning of this statement. Sensual pleasure is generated in the mind. that is where they need to be stopped. If experiencing something was kama raga, kama raga couldn’t be ever removed.
Okay.– Here, “mattan” means “a brief moment/event.” Seeing a tree takes many such events. That is confirmed by modern science too.Lal, this is where the problem was. I was trying to understand the sutta with the wrong translation. Now, It is clear.I will ask more questions if needed after studying the recommended posts. -
Lal, can you comment specifically on whether #2, #3, #4 point of #post-44251 above are correct or not?
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#1. “There is nothing to which that gati belongs to. It is due to defiled gati, mind behaves as if it is entity right?”
I didn’t say anything specifically because sometimes it is not easy to convey ideas in words.
- We could say that “gati belongs to a person.” But those gati keep changing.
- Another way to say it: “a person exists in this world” until attaining Arahanthood. After Arahanthood, it is just waiting for the body (which is a vipaka) to exhaust its energy and die. Until then, there will still be some suffering due to the physical body. Once the physical body dies, that is the end of suffering.
#3 and #4 are fine.
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