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    • #31891
      firewns
      Participant

      Hi Lal,

      In the post on ‘Paṭicca Samuppāda – A “Self” Exists Due to Avijjā’, under the second last bulleted sub-point of point #10, it is mentioned ‘It is with the “taṇhā

      paccayā upādāna” step that we start doing “avijjā paccayā saṅkhāra” and start a new Paṭicca Samuppāda cycle’.

      1) In both the Idappaccayātā Paṭicca Samuppāda and the uppatti PS, how does sankhara differ from upadana? Surely upadana involves vaci sankhara and perhaps kaya

      sankhara as well? Why then does the next step of PS go ‘upadana paccaya bhava’ instead of ‘upadana paccaya sankhara’ or ‘upadana/sankhara paccaya vinnana’?

      2) In both the Idappaccayātā Paṭicca Samuppāda and the uppatti PS, how does vinnana differ from bhava? Both vinnana and bhava involve kammic energies, whether dormant

      or active, and the potential to undergo experiences based on kamma and vipaka. Why then are they distinct stages in PS?

      3) In both the Idappaccayātā Paṭicca Samuppāda and the uppatti PS, how does namarupa differ from jati? Both involve the appearance of new experiences or existences. Why

      then are they distinct stages in PS?

      4) In the uppati PS, how does namarupa differ from salayatana? Can we take the first namarupa of a new existence to be the hadaya vatthu either alone or in combination

      with 2 or 5 pasada rupa? At this stage, are they indriya rather than ayatana? If so, does ‘namarupa paccaya salayatana’ somehow involve the change of indriya to

      ayatana?

      5) In the realm of Brahmas with no consciousness, do they have any hadaya vatthu?

      Thank you very much in advance for your answers, Lal!

    • #31895
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Firewns questions:

      1. For this question and for some of the following questions, we need to remember that PS does not always proceed linearly.
      – You are quite right. Upadana involves vaci sankhara and kaya sankhara as well. This is explained in, “Difference Between Tanhā and Upādāna

      2. It is best to think of vinnana as the mindset. With that mindset, one creates energies for future existence (bhava).
      – That bhava could be temporary in this life. For example, if one drinks too much, one can make an “animal bhava” and be born in it in this life itself.
      – If that person keeps engaging in that activity regularly, that bhava energy (kammic energy) can become strong and could lead to rebirth as an animal.

      3. Namarupa are distinct from jati.
      – Namarupa arise in the mind. An alcoholic can visualize alcohol bottles, party scenes, getting drunk with friends, etc. All those are namarupa.
      – Jati is being born in a certain state, as in #2 above.

      4. In the uppati PS, namarupa is the merging of the gandhabba with the zygote to create the “seed” for the new human with a physical body.
      – After the baby grows and starts getting attached to “things in this world” the indriya will become ayatana.
      – Hadaya vatthu is created at the “bhava paccaya jati” step in the uppati PS.
      – Change of indriya to ayatana happens when one gets attached to something. An Arahant has indriya that NEVER become ayatana.

      5. In the realm of Brahmas with no consciousness (asanna realm), they have hadaya vatthu, but kammic energy prevents any arammana coming to the mind.
      – Without arammana coming in, no citta can arise.
      – Kammic energy maintains a fine rupa until the end of that kammic energy. It is as if one is absent from the world during all that time.

    • #31906
      Lal
      Keymaster

      The following post is by firewns:

      Lal,

      You wrote in #4: ‘In the uppati PS, namarupa is the merging of the gandhabba with the zygote to create the “seed” for the new human with a physical body’ and ‘Hadaya vatthu is created at the “bhava paccaya jati” step in the uppatti PS’.

      However, hadaya vatthu would have to be formed when the gandhabba is formed, as it is part of the mental body. Furthermore, if the bhava stage precedes the jati stage, then before the being is born, it should exist as a gandhaba in the paraloka waiting for a suitable womb to merge with a suitable zygote.

      1) Thus would it not follow that the hadaya vatthu would have been created before the jati step?

      2) In your post on ‘Avyākata Paṭicca Samuppāda for Vipāka Viññāṇa’, what is ‘chaṭṭhāyatanaṃ’ which you mentioned in #8 related to ‘nama paccaya chaṭṭhāyatanaṃ’?

      Thank you very much in advance for your reply.

    • #31910
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Yes. My statement there could have been worded with more explanation.
      – By the way, firewns is referring to #4 of my previous reply.

      So, let me state the steps in the correct order in what happens when a baby is conceived in a womb.

      1. First, a gandhabba (mental boy) arises when a new bhava is grasped. For example, if a Deva dies and becomes a human, a human gandhabba arises at that moment.
      2. Then that gandhabba waits for a suitable womb. When one becomes available, the gandhabba is pulled into that womb by kammic energy.
      3. That gandhabba has the blueprint for the vital parts of a new human body (for example, if one is to be born blind, then it would not have the cakkhu pasada rupa). However, other physical characteristics (body color and even body shapes) come from the zygote produced by the two parents.
      Buddhist Explanations of Conception, Abortion, and Contraception
      – That is what I referred to there. The “nama” part comes from the gandhabba and some parts of the “rupa” comes from the zygote.
      – In that process, “vinnana paccaya namarupa” step involves “patisandhi vinnana” which is essentially gandhabba. It gives rise to the seed of the physical body of a new human (namarupa” there).
      – This is why some terms may have different meanings in different contexts.

      4. In Idapaccaya PS, “namarupa” refers to “mental images” that arise while thinking about a kammic action: “avijja paccaya sankhara”,.. to “vinnana paccaya namarupa”.

      So, one needs to spend some time and figure out what happens. It is not possible to mechanically put in definitions.

      You wrote: “However, hadaya vatthu would have to be formed when the gandhabba is formed, as it is part of the mental body.”
      – Yes. That is correct.
      – But the baby’s physical body needs to build the physical eyes, ears, etc to be able to “sense the external world” as we are discussing in the new series:
      Buddha Dhamma – A Scientific Approach

      So, I hope the answers to the other questions are clear now.
      – If not, please feel free to ask.

      To emphasize, terms of the PS processes (Uppatti and Idapaccaya) can have very different meanings. The twp processes are discussed separately, for example, in:
      Viññāna Paccayā Nāmarūpa
      Nāmarūpa Paccayā Salāyatana

    • #31911
      cubibobi
      Participant

      “…if one is to be born blind, then it would not have the cakkhu pasada rupa”

      So it is possible for a gandhabba to have less than 5 pasada rupa?

      Let’s say further that a gandhabba is to be born blind AND deaf, then it has no cakku and sota pasada rupa?

    • #31912
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Yes. It is possible that a gandhabba may not have one or more pasada rupa (usually one) missing.
      – Yes. One could be born blind and deaf. But that is very rare.

      So, if the cakkhu pasada rupa is missing, that would be the case of a person born blind (jati andha).
      – However, some are born without the ability to see, even if the cakkhu pasada rupa is there. If there is something wrong with the optical nerve or the visual cortex, that would of course lead to blindness. But, if those brain circuits can be repaired in some way, they would be able to see again.
      – If the cakkhu pasada is missing, then nothing can bring sight to that person.

    • #32042
      Lal
      Keymaster

      The following post is by firewns:

      Lal,

      Thank you for your previous replies.

      I think there was a question which you missed answering:

      1) In your post on ‘Avyakata Paticca Samuppada for Vipaka Viññana’, what is chaṭ­ṭhā­yata­na which you mentioned in #8 related to ‘nama paccaya chaṭ­ṭhā­yata­na?

      In addition, I have a new question:

      2) In the case of a uppatti PS cycle, is it possible for a single cycle to span more than 2 jati (births) or even more than 2 bhavas?

      Thank you very much in advance for your reply.

    • #32045
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Good question in #1.

      There, chaṭ­ṭhā­yata­na refers to just the mind (sixth ayatana).

      As explained in that post, this is about how a vipaka vinnana arises.
      – The arammana is grasped by the mind.
      – As you can see, when that vipaka vinnana comes in, the PS process starts at “saṅ­khā­ra­ pac­cayā viññāṇaṃ” and NOT “avijjā pac­cayā saṅ­khā­ra­”

      If one’s mind decides that the arammana is “enticing” or “distasteful” (at the vottapana stage; see #15) then it will start doing sankhara possibly with other ayatana as well. That process will start as “avijjā pac­cayā saṅ­khā­ra­” and will get to salayatana (instead of just chaṭ­ṭhā­yata­na).
      – I just revised #18 of that post to emphasize this point.

      Second question::

      2) In the case of a uppatti PS cycle, is it possible for a single cycle to span more than 2 jati (births) or even more than 2 bhavas?

      No. Each uppatti PS cycle leads to ONE bhava.
      – Of course, it may just provide more strength to an existing bhava that matches the sankhara that one is doing in that process.

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