- This topic has 6 replies, 2 voices, and was last updated 7 months, 3 weeks ago by Lal.
October 8, 2022 at 3:58 pm #40768
First, let me be clear, I have no doubt about Pure Dhamma.
I found the following phrase while reading a Dhammasaṅgaṇī.
Dhammasaṅgaṇī 2 Niddesa 2.3 Nikkhepakaṇḍa 2.3.2. Dukanikkhepa
Tattha katamo idaṁsaccābhiniveso kāyagantho? Sassato loko, idameva saccaṁ moghamaññanti vā; asassato loko, idameva saccaṁ moghamaññanti vā; antavā loko, idameva saccaṁ moghamaññanti vā; anantavā loko, idameva saccaṁ moghamaññanti vā; taṁ jīvaṁ taṁ sarīraṁ, idameva saccaṁ moghamaññanti vā; aññaṁ jīvaṁ aññaṁ sarīraṁ, idameva saccaṁ moghamaññanti vā; hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā, idameva saccaṁ moghamaññanti vā; na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā, idameva saccaṁ moghamaññanti vā; hoti ca na ca hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā, idameva saccaṁ moghamaññanti vā; neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā, idameva saccaṁ moghamaññanti vā; yā evarūpā diṭṭhi diṭṭhigataṁ diṭṭhigahanaṁ diṭṭhikantāro diṭṭhivisūkāyikaṁ diṭṭhivipphanditaṁ diṭṭhisaññojanaṁ gāho patiṭṭhāho abhiniveso parāmāso kummaggo micchāpatho micchattaṁ titthāyatanaṁ vipariyāsaggāho—ayaṁ vuccati idaṁsaccābhiniveso kāyagantho. Ṭhapetvā sīlabbataparāmāsaṁ kāyaganthaṁ sabbāpi micchādiṭṭhi idaṁsaccābhiniveso kāyagantho.
The PTS translated: ‘The world is eternal!’—this is true, all else is false! ‘The world is not eternal’—this is true, all else is false! ‘The world is finite … is infinite’—this is true, all else is false! ‘The living soul is the body … is a different thing from the body’—this is true, all else is false! ‘He who has won truth exists after death … does not exist after death … both exists and does not exist after death … neither exists nor does not exist after death’—this is true, all else is false!”—this kind of opinion, this walking in opinion, this jungle of opinion, wilderness of opinion, disorder of opinion, scuffling of opinion, this Fetter of opinion, the grip and tenacity of it, the inclination towards it, the being infected by it, this by-path, wrong road, wrongness, this sectarianism, this shiftiness of grasp—this is called the bodily Tie of the inclination to dogmatize.
And I remembered the post about this topic.
Misconceptions on the Topics the Buddha “Refused to Answer”
1. Is the world eternal?
2. Is the world finite?
3. Is the “self” identical to the body?
4. Does the Tathagata (Buddha) exist after death?
Buddha did provide answers to those questions.
The short answers are: Yes; No; It is not correct to say there is a “self” or “no-self”; No.
So I tried to make a compatible explanation for these two statements on my own. But it didn’t work out. So I would like to know how these two statements are compatible.
I think that “Sassato loko and asassato loko” means “not to have the remotest idea of paticca samuppada”
If I’m wrong, please let me know what is it. Thank you.
October 8, 2022 at 8:58 pm #40771
I have re-written the post to address your valid questions. It is getting late here, so I just finished a rough draft. Please feel to ask questions so that I can add to that post.
“Misconceptions on the Topics the Buddha ‘Refused to Answer’“
October 9, 2022 at 8:00 am #40772
Dosakkhaya wrote: “I think that “Sassato loko and asassato loko” means “not to have the remotest idea of paticca samuppada”
1. That is correct since “loka” means the five aggregates in Buddha Dhamma.
– Those with “Sassata ditthi” have the wrong that there is something in the five aggregates that can and will continue perpetually.
– Others with “asassata/uccheda ditthi” have the wrong view that the five aggregates started at birth (in this life) and will end with the body’s death.
But five aggregates will continue to grow until the root causes for its continuance (i.e., arising of hadaya vatthu/pasada rupa) are stopped.
– That happens via PS.
– P.S. Of course, there are many ways to express the above. The main thing is to realize that as long as one has the wrong view that worldly things are of value (i.e., do not comprehend the anicca nature), there is no end to suffering. Anicca nature inevitably leads to dukkha (suffering), and one will end up without refuge (anatta). Human birth is when one can use the opportunity to “seek refuge” in Buddha Dhamma and get to the refuge (Nibbana).
2. On the other hand, scientists consider the physical world out there (cosmos) as the “world” or “loka.”
– Even if an infinite number of beings attain Nibbana and dissociate with their “lokas” there will be an infinite number left to sustain the cosmos.
October 9, 2022 at 4:10 pm #40808
“hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā, idameva saccaṁ moghamaññanti vā; na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā, idameva saccaṁ moghamaññanti vā; hoti ca na ca hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā, idameva saccaṁ moghamaññanti vā; neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā, idameva saccaṁ moghamaññanti vā;”
I have carefully thought about what those phrases meant. As I pointed out above(sassato loko, asassato loko), I found that other sentences also express conclusions drawn from a false understanding of PS. It’s like the story of blind men and the elephant. Each sentence does not comprehensively understand the whole of PS, but only partially.
‘hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’
This is the view of equating Nibbana with samsara. In other words, it considers that the way of being in samsara(ayatana, bhava, jati, etc) can apply to Nibbana. But Nibbana and samsara are mutually exclusive. Therefore it is wrong.
‘na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’
It is the view that the ending of samsara is a complete extinction of existence(not only in samsara but also Nibbana). The below post can explain this.
Fear of Nibbāna (Enlightenment)
A given life-stream evolves according to causes (kamma.) When the ability for past kamma to bring their vipāka is stopped (i.e., taṇhā or upādāna stopped,) then that process will stop and one merges with Nibbāna at the death of that last physical body.
I inferred that the other two(‘hoti ca na ca hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’, ‘neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’) are also conclusions from not understanding PS, but it is difficult to explain how they get the wrong end of the stick. So I’d like your help on this point.
Of course, I know that this task is something of little importance to achieve maggaphala. To conclude, if one understands PS correctly, the whole problem is solved. However, considering that many people do not accept the issue as a result of a false understanding of PS, I think it would be helpful to clarify how these two went wrong.
I’m not sure exactly what the word jīva means. I would like to get more information about it. Does jīva mean life-stream? Or just life in the sense of ‘being’?
October 9, 2022 at 7:49 pm #40814
Dosakkhayo asked: ” Does jīva mean life-stream? Or just life in the sense of ‘being’?”
Whether jīva means just “this life” or a “lifestream” depends on the type of the wrong view.
– Those with uccheda diṭṭhi believe that life (jīva) is associated with the physical body (sarīra) in this life. When the body dies, that is the end of jīva.
– Those with sassata diṭṭhi refer to jīva as a “lifestream that continues without end” because it has a permanent entity (ātman) associated with it.
I have added a bit more — including the above — to the post:
Misconceptions on the Topics the Buddha “Refused to Answer”
October 9, 2022 at 9:06 pm #40816
I think I’ve got enough answers on this subject. Thank you.
October 10, 2022 at 6:38 am #40817
Thank you, Dosakkhayo, for bringin up this issue.
– Don’t hesitate to comment/ask questions. It is good to look at issues from different angles.
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