post on “Me” and “Mine” – The Root Cause of Suffering

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    • #31737
      Tobias G
      Participant

      “Me” and “Mine” – The Root Cause of Suffering

      Please see #2: “…Pancupādānakkhandhā includes only those past experiences that we liked…”

      The 5 upadanakkhandha include more, they include all we like and dislike (with raga, dosa, moha), all we cling to. E.g. we may cling to anger about a certain person or the way someone speaks.
      Thus it includes also more than past. Also plans for desired or feared future events are in upadana heaps. Those upadana heaps include everything what we have an opinion on.

      The reason for upadana is what Lal explains in that post: the perception of “me” and “mine” or “here”. Without the perception of “me” (or “here”) one cannot bother about external rupa (“there”). If upadana is absent one just experiences the world, seeing is just seeing, hearing is just hearing … there is no opinion, no wanting, no rejecting.

      Any thoughts?

    • #31741
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Yes. I did not quite have it worded right.

      Just revised that sentence to:
      Pancupādānakkhandhā are based on past experiences that we liked.”

      Thanks, Tobias!

    • #31742
      Tobias G
      Participant

      What is with the disliked things? We also cling to anger and angry sankhara can start anytime we get the trigger presented.

      What is with the things we cling to with moha/avijja? For example some people kill a fly with a swat whenever they see a fly in the room. They do not hate the fly , but have the habit to kill this “useless and annoying thing”.

    • #31743
      Lal
      Keymaster

      We attach to “things” or “situations” with anger (or annoyance) OR ignorance too. That is the true meaning of tanha: “Tanhā – How We Attach Via Greed, Hate, and Ignorance

      One may get annoyed with a fly (some can bite too!) because of its persistence.
      – So, one may actually “hate the fly” for being annoying!

      People also get annoyed for no apparent reason too. That is due to avijja.
      – Someone may just “do not like” another person (a total stranger), for no apparent reason.
      – It works the other way too. Some “fall in love” at first sight!

    • #31744
      Tobias G
      Participant

      That is why you better write the sentence: “Pancupādānakkhandhā are based on past experiences we adhere to.”

    • #31745
      Lal
      Keymaster

      You could write it that way too, Tobias.
      – But dislike has origins in liking.

      Anicca nature comes from not getting what one craves or likes, i.e., icca (or iccha).

    • #31746
      y not
      Participant

      “One may get annoyed with a fly (some can bite too!) because of its persistence.
      – So, one may actually “hate the fly” for being annoying!”

      True. However, it is possible for anger to be independent of hatred. Annoyance and anger may be at objects or with regard to particular situations where no living beings are involved.

      I am in the kitchen and accidentally tip the oil over. (“S**t”!). The oil spills onto the floor. Temperature rising now. I go to fetch a floor cloth, only to find that I had thrown the worn one away the last time I used it. Despair. In the rush of how best to improvise a floor cloth, I hit my toe against a chair leg. Bad language. Very bad language. Uncontrollable anger. At that moment the doorbell or the phone rings! It is some one I love dearly. Now I feel deeply hurt as I see that anger directed at that loved one as I am answering, which is not the case at all.

      I have experienced such situations. I am sure others can relate as well. Hatred was not there towards anyone at any time. It was just the obstacles in the way. Whatever harm was done there was done to myself alone. But what if a living being came in my way at that moment?? So there was the harm to myself, and the POTENTIAL harm to others as well.

    • #31750
      Lal
      Keymaster

      y not wrote: “However, it is possible for anger to be independent of hatred.”

      Of course. There are many levels of dosa ranging from hatred (high end) to anger to just annoyance.
      – Hatred is where one is capable of even murder. With anger one may verbally abuse or even hit. Annoyance (patigha) is lower.

      In the same way, there are many levels of lobha ranging from extreme greed (where one may do immoral things like rape), to kama raga (craving for sensory pleasures), to rupa raga (just to see/hear), to arupa raga (just the desire to live in this world).

    • #31753
      Lal
      Keymaster

      To complete my explanation above:

      Moha has many levels too. It starts from a totally-covered mind that does not believe that kamma have vipaka, the validity of the rebirth process, etc.
      – When one has removed the ten types of wrong views, one has avijja. That means one does not realize the unfruitfulness of the rebirth process AND the dangers.
      – Then at the “Stream Entry” or the Sotapanna stage, one starts comprehending the Four Noble Truths or Tilakkhana.
      – Then avijja is removed in four stages of Nibbana, culminating at the Arahant stage.

    • #31756
      y not
      Participant

      – (#1): Is this so definitive? Or may it apply to some wrong views and not others?

      ” When one has removed the ten types of wrong views, one has avijja” ???

      If one admits to the reality of kamma and kamma vipaka and to opapatika births, including the apayas especially, is this not an indication of having seen, to some extent at least, the dangers in the rebirth process, and therefore has right view there? There is no avijja, at least in those respects.

      Again, if one sees the merits of generosity, of reciprocating good words and actions coming from others, is this not because one believes in rebirth – because it is obvious that the results of both often are not seen in the present life.

    • #31757
      Lal
      Keymaster

      y not wrote: “If one admits to the reality of kamma and kamma vipaka and to opapatika births, including the apayas especially, is this not an indication of having seen, to some extent at least, the dangers in the rebirth process, and therefore has right view there? ”

      Yes. That is why the Buddha said there are two types of Samma Ditthi.
      – What you say in the above statement is getting to the first (mundane) version of Samma Ditthi.

      That DOES NOT remove the ignorance of the Four Noble Truths (embedded in Tilakkhana) that says even rebirths in the “good realms” are NOT the solution.
      – The higher level of Samma Ditthi comes from that understanding.

      But of course, living a moral life, embedded in the mundane Samma Ditthi. is a critical first step.

    • #31758
      y not
      Participant

      “That does not remove…. “The Higher level….”

      Yes that I see, Lal.

      Just as there are two levels of Samma Ditthi, mundane and supermundane, there are two levels of avijja. But only the one word, avijja, is applied to represent the causes of both. This is what I was getting at, “having seen the dangers in the rebirth process’ ( you have it: ‘even rebirths in the “good realms” are NOT the solution’). It was to the supermundane I was referring to.

      “But of course, living a moral life, embedded in the MUNDANE Samma Ditthi. is a critical first step”.

    • #31760
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Normally, the word moha is used to describe those who have ten types of wrong views (miccha ditthi).
      – That is the strongest level of “ignorance.”

      When those ten types of wrong views are removed, one gets to mundane Samma Ditthi.

      But one has not comprehended the Four Noble Truths (or Tilakkhana) yet.
      – Thus one still has avijja, a lower level than moha.

      That is why the akusala-mula Paticca Samuppada process starts with, “avijja paccaya sankhara“. It ends in “the whole mass of suffering.”

      To remove avijja, one must first learn them from a Buddha or a true disciple of the Buddha, of course. Then one must contemplate on what is learned, and comprehend the “anicca nature.”
      – That is the “previously unheard Dhamma” until a Buddha is born.

      The kusala-mula Paticca Samuppada process comes into play ONLY after the comprehension of Tilakkhana.
      – That process DOES NOT lead to “the whole mass of suffering”. It ends with “Dhammanam samudayo hoti” and leads to only Ariya births (i.e., as a Sotapanna Anugami or above). Whehter one is reborn a human, a Deva, or a Brahma, one WILL BE an Ariya.

    • #31762
      Christian
      Participant

      What is with the things we cling to with moha/avijja? For example some people kill a fly with a swat whenever they see a fly in the room. They do not hate the fly , but have the habit to kill this “useless and annoying thing”.

      I think those type questions are not applicable, I get on my group too from this category. For someone below Sotapanna – one have anyway much more ignorance and reactions than this and for Sotapanna those things does not matter anyway as they will grow out as skin from snake.

      Certain questions are just not applicable and are just looking for hole in whole

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