April 12, 2020 at 3:30 am #28359cubibobiParticipant
Last night, I listened to a desana on the sotapanna stage (my main focus nowadays) by a bhante (Dhammavudho) from Malaysia.
Starting around 15:55, he talked about five realms of rebirths, and that was from early suttas. I was confused about that and planned to do some searching, and today saw the newest post from Lal. What great timing!
The bhante must have meant the five gati and mistaken it for “destinations” as Lal explained here. Other than that, everything else was mostly consistent with what we’ve been learning here about the sotapanna stage; but listening to a bhikkhu talking about it gives some extra inspiration.
At around 1:12:00, he conveyed to the audience the urgency of practicing Dhamma because we are lucky to be in a time of a Samma Sambuddha, which is very rare. That was nice.
April 12, 2020 at 3:35 am #28366Johnny_LimParticipant
This is the late Venerable Dhammavuddho Mahathera. He passed away in Dec 2019.
April 12, 2020 at 8:50 am #28387
I had listened to this desana some time back.
Starting at 17:50 up to 20:23 be brings up the point that the Suttas say that from Magga to Phala citta takes some time, while elsewhere (in the Abhidhamma) it is stated that the transition from one to the other happens in the very next citta; in short, there is no one to be found to be on the Path and without the Fruit. Also, he seems to question (not to say dismiss) the validity of the Abhidhamma as also of any suttas that were not existent at the time of king Asoka. “If it agrees with the Suttas and the Vinaya, then you know it is the Buddha’s words….if not…then you can throw it away” (23:39….)
It is easy to see that there are 8 types of Ariyas: the Anugami and the Stage: Sotapanna Anugani and Sotapanna, Sakadagami Anugami ..etc. The questions come when those 8 are said to refer to the Magga and the Phala of a particular Stage, for then we would have to admit to 12 types not just 8.
These and other related points are discussed in the Abhidhamma forum: ‘difference-between-magga-and-phala-citta’ started by Akvan back on 25.09.’18.
May the Blessings of the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha be with us all always.
April 12, 2020 at 4:18 pm #28422
The discussion that y not refer to is at, “Difference between Magga and Phala Citta.”
It is those who are not knowledgeable in Abhidhamma that run into this issue. Then they say that Abhidhamma is not consistent with the Sutta Piṭaka.
– EVERYTHING in the three Piṭaka (Sutta, Vinaya, Abhidhamma) are fully self-consistent.
– I looked at MN 142 and SN 55.24 that the Thero referred to in the discourse. There is no inconsistency with Abhidhamma.
There are four magga phala. Each phala citta arises right after the magga citta.
– A magga citta DOES NOT mean the Anugami stage.
– A “magga anugami” has not had a “magga citta” yet.
– The relevant citta vithi is discussed in the subsection “Citta Vīthi for Attainment of Magga Phala” toward the end of the post, “Citta Vithi – Processing of Sense Inputs”
– when someone cultivates the Path, it COULD take a lot of time to go through Parikamma (P), Upacara (U), Anuloma (A), Gotrabu (G) stages. For example, one may get to the Parikamma (P) stage after some months, and then to the Upacara (U) after more time.
– Then one may get to the Gotrabu (G) stage, and that is when one becomes a Sotapanna Anugami. That is called “change lineage” to become an Ariya or a Noble Person. This is what most people do not realize. A Sotapanna Anugami is an Ariya.
– After more time (depending on the person), one WILL get to the magga citta. That magga citta is INVARIABLY followed by the phala citta. There is no “gap” between the magga citta and the phala citta. A Sotapanna Anugami becomes a Sotapanna at that point.
– Until one reaches the Gotrabu (G) stage, the process is reversible.
– But once the Gotrabu (G) stage is attained, one is an Ariya and WILL NOT go back.
The process is similar for the higher stages of magga phala. Once one becomes a Sotapanna, that does not mean he/she is a Sakadagami Anugami. He/she has to start working on getting to the next stage to become a Sakadagami Anugami.
Also, see, “Sōtapanna Anugāmi – No More Births in the Apāyās.”
April 13, 2020 at 6:34 am #28482
So the sequence of progress is:
(cultivation of) the Path = Stage Anugami = magga + phala.
This reconciles both facts:
– there is a time lag between the Path and the (magga and phala).
– there is no time lag between the magga and the phala (or, practically none).
It is only now that I get it. And it took me some time as well. I must have been taking the cultivation of the Path for the magga. And a desana like this only serves to support the misapprehension.
Now, that aside, in the post: sotapanna-stage-of-nibbana/sotapanna-anugami-and-sotapanna:
“1. In the salutation to the sangha, they are referred to as “attha purisa puggalā..Thus there are eight types of people belonging to the sangha. Who are the eight?…There are four who have fulfilled the conditions for the four stages of Nibbāna: Sōtapanna, Sakadāgāmi, Anāgāmi, and Arahant. They are said to be in the magga stage for the respective stage. And there are four who have received the fruits (phala)…Thus when one gets into the Sōtapanna magga citta, for example, one receives the Sōtapanna phala in the very next citta. Thus one becomes a Sōtapanna in two consecutive thought-moments.” In the salutation to the Sangha, are the four who exist for only a billionth of second also taken into consideration? ! I am not being impudent.
“3. Thus it is clear that “attha purisa puggalā” consists of the eight Ariyā (Noble Persons). They are Sōtapanna Anugāmi, Sōtapanna, Sakadāgāmi Anugāmi, Sakadāgāmi, Anāgāmi Anugāmi, Anāgāmi, Arahant Anugāmi, and Arahant.
– “attha purisa puggalā” refers to the 4 who have fulfilled the conditions and the 4 who have received the fruits. Moreover, how are there eight when the distinction lasts for only a billionth of a second? And…
– “attha purisa puggalā” refers to the 8 Ariya.
Can you please resolve this?
Thank you very much, Lal
April 13, 2020 at 7:35 am #28485
Thank you, y not.
I have revised that post to make it more clear. Let me know if it is not clear. We need to get this right.
April 13, 2020 at 7:54 am #28487
That leaves no room for any ambiguity whatsoever. Others are much less likely to have a hard time grasping it now.
Thank you ever so much Lal. I had been grappling with this, on and off, for months.
May you attain the Deathless in this life.
April 26, 2020 at 1:05 pm #29292
The following post is from Lvalio (Lair).
What’s to note about this Ven lecture. Dhammavuddho and what is necessary to pay attention is that when he refers to the conditions to progress on the path. Lord Buddha told Ven. Ananda that the preservation of the Dhamma depends 100% on good friends (kalyāṇasahāyatā kalyāṇasampavaṅkatā.)
– The translation of the Pali into English as “good friends” and it is wrong.
– The correct translation is, “friends who penetrated the path of the Dhamma”, at the very least a Sotapanna -an Ariya.
And in this lecture, the Venerable speaks clearly of good friends AS Ariya…
See, “Half the Spiritual Life (SN 45.2)“.
– So the translation is wrong. It is not only “good friends”, but “good friends” who understood the Message of Lord Buddha, i.e. The Dhamma of nature…
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