July 26, 2020 at 9:18 am #31561
I want to know if you ever write about that notion of ”making manifold’
July 26, 2020 at 10:28 am #31562
It is not correct to translate “papañca” as “”making manifold.”
Papañca means to be “blinded by sensual pleasures” and to engage in highly-immoral deeds. One who engages in such thoughts, speech, and actions is bound to be reborn in the four lowest realms (apāyā.)
This is discussed, for example, in the “Madhupiṇḍika Sutta (MN 18)“.
For example, the following is a key verse there: “yatonidānaṃ, bhikkhu, purisaṃ papañcasaññāsaṅkhā samudācaranti. Ettha ce natthi abhinanditabbaṃ abhivaditabbaṃ ajjhositabbaṃ. Esevanto rāgānusayānaṃ … pe … etthete pāpakā akusalā dhammā aparisesā nirujjhantī’ti..”
Papañca is thus related to pāpa kammā. See #13 of the post, “Kusala and Akusala Kamma, Puñña and Pāpa Kamma”
– It is a good idea to read that post to get a good idea about the words, kusala/akusala kamma and puñña/pāpa kamma.
July 27, 2020 at 3:52 pm #31579
Bonjour Monsieur Lal,
About the term ”papanca”, I read in ”Concept and Reality ”…an essay on Papanca and Papanca-sanna-sanka, by Nanananda Bhikkhu, who suggests that the term refers to man’s ”tendency towards proliferation in the realm of concepts”and proposes a rendering by ”conceptual proliferation” , which appears convincing in psychological context, e.g. in two of the texts quoted above, A.IV,173 and M.18. I read the same explanation in the ”Manuel of Buddhist Terms and Doctrines”, by Maha Thera Nyanatiloka; and the same interpretation in the book of Sue Hamilton, ”Early Buddhism: A new Approach, the I of the beholder”at pages..30, 76-8, 83, 92, 95, 110, 124, 132-3, 144, 147, 173, 184, 187. THIS WORLD SEEMS TO BE CHALLENGING FOR TRANSLATORS (E.G. MN18, DN21, Sn.11, AN4.173). Mark Siderits and Shoryu Katsura translate it as ”Hypostatization” close to the root as the Greek ”hypostatos” (substantially existing). Bhikkhu Bodhi calls papanca ”the propensity of the worlding’s imagination to erupt in an effusion of mental commentary that obscures the bare data of cognition” (from note 229 in Majjkima Nikāya (MN)…et pour finir j’ajoute la référence à Thanissaro Bhikkhu, in ”The Arrows of Thinking, Papanca & the path to end conflict” in his book : ”Beyond all Directions”…”this arrow has many names in the Pali Canon and one of them is ”papanca”. Papanca is a type of thinking that causes conflict within those who think it and leads them into conflict with people outside.” Is it so hard to translate and a source of conflict?
Grenier,an old man of Montreal, Québec. Merci
July 27, 2020 at 8:15 pm #31580
Yes. You are correct.
There are many different interpretations of the term “papañcasaññāsaṅkhā.”
Here is a comment in a discussion forum that I came across when searching for that term.
“MN 18 is a very good example but this might be against the view of a dvanda compound and might support my considering of a tappurisa compound. Below translations of the compound papañcasaññāsaṅkhā:
Yatonidānaṃ, bhikkhu, purisaṃ papañcasaññāsaṅkhā samudācaranti
Mendicant, a person is beset by concepts of identity that emerge from the proliferation of perceptions. – Sujato
the origin of the number (saṅkhā) of perceptions and obsessions which assail a man – Horner
the source, perceptions and notions [born of] mental proliferation beset a man – Bodhi
the perceptions & categories of objectification assail him/her – Thanissaro”
The quote is from, “Re: Is Papanca commentary, identification or both?”
So, yes, there is a lot of confusion about translating some Pali words.
– I have explained my translation of papañca. It is up to each person to scrutinize and see which translation is correct.
– Of course, one needs to look at many different suttas to whether a given translation is consistent with other suttas.
– papañcasaññāsaṅkhā needs a lot of explanation. I will need to write a post to explain it. Hopefully, I will be able to do that in the near future.
However, I think it is important to understand the meaning of papañca. I have explained it in my previous post above.
July 28, 2020 at 1:27 am #31584y notParticipant
The first perception that struck me about the word:
Sustained preoccupation with the bad (papa = pa) five (panca), and the resultant adverse consequences as a prolonged mental state of being. The five being, of course, the five sense doors to start with, their respective ayatana, then vaci sankhara…a kind of enforced and unpleasant type of vinnana, but a very persistent one.
I can make nothing specific of the saṅkhā part of the word except for the automatic connection to sankhara in some way, but approaching vinnana. A combination of (vaci) sankhara/vinnana would come close to what I mean.
July 28, 2020 at 6:49 am #31587
#31580 – You wrote ”MN 18 is a good example (of different interpretations)…but this might be against the view of a Dvanda compound (two or more nouns that are added together with no added meaning due to the compounding…(papanca/sanna/sankha) and support my considering of a Tappurisa compound (the first member depends on the second; the relationship between the two or three words can be expressed by the prepositional cases.” Applaying the Tappurisa compound, you give in ”sanna” (senses) the leading view as you may do for ”iccha” (desires) in anicca. Am I correct in that interpretation?
July 28, 2020 at 6:52 am #31588
One may be able to look at a given word in different ways.
But pāpa means the opposite of puñña.
– A pāpa kamma is a highly-immoral kamma that will lead to rebirth in an apaya.
– A puñña kamma will lead to rebirth in good realms.
– See the post referred to in my first comment above.
The Buddha and his disciples called the Māra Devaputta pāpi Māra” or pāpima“because the Māra Devaputta encourages people to stay in kama loka.
Pāpa kamma discussed in, “Mahāli Sutta (AN 10.47)” for example.
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