Nirodha Samāpatti

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    • #13271
      Johnny_Lim
      Participant

      Dear all,

      There is an interesting sutta that illustrates the progression of entering Nirodha Samāpatti and the emergence from it. I would like to discuss about it.

      Saṃyutta Nikāya SN 41.6 – Kāmabhu 2 (https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn41/sn41.006.than.html)

      “On one occasion Ven. Kamabhu was living near Macchikasanda in the Wild Mango Grove. Then Citta the householder went to him and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to Ven. Kamabhu, “Venerable sir, how many [types of] fabrications are there?”

      “There are three fabrications, householder: bodily-fabrications, verbal fabrications, & mental fabrications.”
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      “Very good, venerable sir.” And, delighting in and approving of Ven. Kamabhu’s answer, Citta asked him a further question: “When a monk is attaining the cessation of perception & feeling, which things cease first: bodily fabrications, verbal fabrications, or mental fabrications?”

      “When a monk is attaining the cessation of perception & feeling, verbal fabrications cease first, then bodily fabrications, then mental fabrications.”[1]
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      “Very good, venerable sir.” And, delighting in and approving of Ven. Kamabhu’s answer, Citta asked him a further question: “When a monk is emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling, which things arise first: bodily fabrications, verbal fabrications, or mental fabrications?”

      “When a monk is emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling, mental fabrications arise first, then bodily fabrications, then verbal fabrications.”

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      Footnote [1] of this sutta says, “According to SN 36.11, verbal fabrication grows still on attaining the second jhana; bodily fabrication grows still on attaining the fourth jhana; mental fabrication grows still on attaining the cessation of perception & feeling.”

      Which implies that on the attainment of 2nd jhana, 4th jhana, and Nirodha Samāpatti, vaci sankhara, kaya sankhara, and citta (mano) sankhara stops, respectively. Emergence from Nirodha Samāpatti is just the reverse order.

      Is it true that in the 4th jhana, there is no more breathing?

    • #13279
      Lal
      Keymaster

      Johnny Lim said, “Which implies that on the attainment of 2nd jhana, 4th jhana, and Nirodha Samāpatti, vaci sankhara, kaya sankhara, and citta (mano) sankhara stops, respectively. Emergence from Nirodha Samāpatti is just the reverse order..”

      That statement should read, “Which implies that on the attainment of 2nd jhana samapatti, 4th jhana samapatti, and Nirodha Samāpatti, vaci sankhara, kaya sankhara, and citta (mano) sankhara stops, respectively. Emergence from Nirodha Samāpatti is just the reverse order.

      It is important to understand the difference between jhana and samapatti. Vaci sankhara are not stopped in the second jhana, but is stopped in the second jhana samapatti. Similarly, kaya sankhara are stopped only in the fourth jhana samapatti; that also means breathing is also stopped in the fourth jhana samapatti.
      All thoughts cease to exist in nirodha samapatti, i.e., no mano sankhara. The only difference between one in nirodha samapatti and a dead body is that dead body is decaying and body temperature drops. When one is in nirodha samapatti, body temperature drops some but remains at that level; life is maintained by kammic energy.

      When in a jhana, jhana citta vithi do not run continuously; there are citta vithi corresponding to pancadvara running in between jhana citta vithi. That is why one in a jhana can hear, see, etc.So, one does generate all three types of sankhara when one is in a jhana.

      But when one is in a jhana samapatti, monodvara jhana javana citta run continuously. Therefore, one does not hear, see, etc while in any jhana samapatti, as well as in nirodha samapatti.

      The basic ideas and a bit about jhana samapatti are discussed in the post: “Citta Vithi – Processing of Sense Inputs“.

      In addition, only vaci sankhara are stopped in the second jhana samapatti. Only vaci and kaya sankhara are stopped in the fourth jhana samapatti. All three are stopped in the nirodha samapatti.

    • #13281
      Johnny_Lim
      Participant

      Hi Lal,

      Thanks for the detailed clarification. I would have thought that in the fourth jhana, the meditator’s five senses will be shut out! Seems like it’s not the case.

    • #14102
      Lal
      Keymaster

      I just published a new post “Nirōdha Samāpatti, Phala Samāpatti, Jhāna, and Jhāna Samāpatti“, that would hopefully address some of the questions one may still have.

      This post should cover the questions raised in the discussion forum under the topics:” Nirōdha Samāpatti”, “Difference between “Arahant phala samāpatti” and “Nirōdha samāpatti” ?”, and “Nirōdha Samāpatti and Amoha”.

      If there are more questions on this and related issues, please ask them under the topic “Difference between “Arahant phala samāpatti” and “Nirōdha samāpatti” ?”. I am going to close the other two topics, in order to not have too many parallel and related discussions.

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