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Why is it said Nibbana exist, but not in this world?
The post: https://puredhamma.net/key-dhamma-concepts/nibbana-2/nibbana-exists-but-not-in-this-world/
..does not make it clear to me.Isn’t it the mind in this world which becomes free of asava’s? Or, free from lobha, dosa and moha?
kinds regards,
Siebe -
This is how I understand Nibbana.
Nibbana is a state of unconditioned which means that there is no cause and effect taking place and thus after parinibbana will not be in this world as this world of 31 planes of existence still belongs to the conditioned world with cause and effect.
Nibbana is also called vimokkha which has 3 form of liberations through the comtemplation/understanding of Tilakkhana (anicca, dukkha, anatta) and they are: 1. by understanding anicca gives the conditionless (or signless) liberation (animitta-vimokkha), 2. by understanding dukkha gives the desireless liberation (apanihita-vimokkha), 3. by understanding anatta gives the emptiness (or voidless) liberation (suññatā-vimokkha).
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Here is another way to look at it.
We remember that there are only four paramatta dhamma: Nibbana, rupa, citta, and cetasika. The latter three entities belong to “this world” and Nibbana means dissociation from “this world”.
The easy answer is: Nibbana is detaching from this world. So, all three entities of citta, cetasika, and rupa cease to exist. There is no mind without citta and cetasika. So, when the mind becomes free of asavas, the mind itself cease to exist.Another way to look at it: The Buddha said that a living being (satva or satta) is the collection of five aggregates: rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara, vinnana. Furthermore, ALL FIVE must be there together, i.e., mental components must be accompanied by rupa. There are several suttas that state “vinnana cannot exist without rupa”. Since I am on travel, I am unable to find those suttas.
In terms of paramatta dhamma, citta and cetasika are represented by vedana,sanna, sankhara, vinnana. Therefore, at (Pari)Nibbana, mind (thoughts with citta and cetasika) also cease to exist, when they become detached from rupa.Nibbana is an asankata dhamma. Everything in this world is a sankata. Nibbana element does not exist in this world.
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I also had this same problem some time back and was trying to figure out what all of this (nibbana) meant. This may sound cliche, but the only way to understand what it, is to really see it. Or at least glimpse it. And the only way to do that is to understand anichcha, dukka, anaththa and keep looking at the world with that understanding.
I was trying to explain the cooling down feeling to a friend and realised that it is very hard to explain it, as the words I was using had very different meanings in a worldly sense.
As Lal has explained in his post, the best way to explain it is through the extinguishing of a fire. When a candle is extinguished, the wax, the wick, the oxygen is still there but the light / fire is no more. So the fact that the fire is no more is something that we can see in this world but, then again the “lack of the fire” is not really in this world too. Again it is very hard to explain as we are using worldly concepts.
Hope this helps.
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Hello Akvan,
I fully agree with your assessment that the wordly concepts are hardly useful in regard to Nibbana. When I explain the Dhamma to someone without any background that person wants to fall back to theses wordly concepts. It really requires the learning of Buddha Dhamma for a certain time to grasp some ideas before any understanding follows. That is a big obstacle to “get on board”.Tobias
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Dear Tobias,
1. Dhamma are rupa too:
What are rūpa? – Dhammā are rūpa too!2. Also, a living being is ALWAYS associated with a a rupa condensed above the dhamma stage. Even an arupavacara brahma has a hadaya vatthu, which is a suddhashtaka.
So, a given “lifestream” is always associated with a rupa at or above the suddhashtaka stage, in addition to dhamma.
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A heartfelt greetings to everyone !
“Nibbana exists, but not in this world”
As I understand this, everything in this world of “31 realms” is a “Sankata”.
In other words, everything in this world of “31 realms” arises due to causes (and conditions), exists for some time (variable) and eventually comes to extinction. There are 6 ROOT CAUSES which gives rise to everything (sankata) in this world of 31 realms –(i) lobha
(ii) dosa
(iii) moha
(iv) alobha
(v) adosa
(vi) amohaAnother (most) important fact about any Sankata is its “Viparinama” nature. It changes unexpectedly during its course (hence Aniccha). Therefore everything in this world of 31 relams has the “THREE CHARACTERISTICS”.
On the other hand, Nibbana is NOT “Sankata”. Nibbana is the only Asankata.
So Nibbana does not has a cause ! Hence Nibbana does not belong to the world of 31 realms.
Nibbana (asankata) is attained by removing all the root causes of lobha,dosa,moha,alobha,adosa,amoha (by eliminating asavas and anusayas).Nibbana does NOT has the “Viparinama” nature. Hence it has the opposite three characteristics of “niccha”, “sukkha”, “atta”.
Hope this helps
May all beings attain Nibbana !!!
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Lal, when the mind becomes free of asava’s does it become free of seeing, hearing, feeling, tasting etc? Would that really be the case then an arahant, who’s asava’s have ended, cannot live this life anymore. Attaining Nibbana would make live impossible if this would mean that mind would end too.
I belief a mind of an arahant is detached from “this world” in the sense that it does not get involved in what it experiences with like and dislike or any identification in the form of “this is mine, this I am, this is myself’.
Both craving and avijja are destroyed or ended.At the moment i belief Nibbana is in this world but not off this world in the sense that is does not get involved in “the world”, i.e. whatever we can experience trough the senses it is detached. I belief, Nibbana is just ordinary mind freed of all adventitious asava’s.
Thanks for the answers,
Siebe
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C.Saket said: “wonder why beings in the realms 28-31 are called “arupavacara” brahma ? and why these realms are called “arupa” loka ? (since arupavacara brahmas have hadaya vatthu which is technically a rupa)”.
Arupavacara was a word introduced by ancient yogis and had been in usage when the Buddha was born. Rupa above the suddhshtaka stage start at bhuta stage, where it is just a suddhashtaka. The next more condensed state is “maha bhuta” with large aggregates of suddhashtaka, and then even more condensed statges of “dhathu”. See:
The Origin of Matter – SuddhāshtakaHigher the one’s realm is finer rupas one can see. We can see only highly condensed “dhatu”. Devas have much finer bodies and can see finer “dhatu”. Rupavacara brahmas can see “maha bhuta”. A given being can see one’s own level and lower levels.
However, arupavacra brahmas cannot see rupa above the suddhashtaka stage because they do not have cakkhu (or sota) pasada rupa. They have only a hadaya vatthu and thus can only access “dhamma below the suddhashtaka stage” via “mananca paticca dhammeca uppadati mano vinnanam”.
Therefore, there are no rupa above the suddhashtaka stage in arupavacara realms, AND the only rupa at the suddhashtaka stage are only the hadaya vatthus of those brahmas. Thus, when ancient yogis attained arupavacara jhanas, they did not see any rupa there, So, those yogis gave the name “arupavacara” to those realms.
Therefore, any rupa above the suddhashtaka cannot be seen by an arupavacara brahma, because they don’t have cakkhu indriya. A suddhashtaka cannot be seen by rupavacara brahmas, because they can see only “maha buta” or large aggregates of suddhashtaka. Only a Buddha can see a suddhashtaka.Sybe07 said: “Lal, when the mind becomes free of asava’s does it become free of seeing, hearing, feeling, tasting etc? Would that really be the case then an arahant, who’s asava’s have ended, cannot live this life anymore. Attaining Nibbana would make live impossible if this would mean that mind would end too….”
When a living being is in a given bhava in the kama loka (human, animal, deva, peta, etc), its sense faculties experience likes/dislikes based on that bhava, and these are called “kama guna”. Some kama guna can be matching, but others are different from bhava to bhava. Humans and dogs enjoy some similar foods, but dogs also eat feces. A human (with some exceptions based on kamma vipaka), taste saltiness of salt and sweetness of sugar. That holds for even an Arahant until the Arahant attains Parinibbana, i.e., passes away, see:
Kāma Guna, Kāma, Kāma Rāga, KāmaccandaThere are two types of Nibbana: saupadisesa Nibbana and anupadisesa Nibbana:
See “Nirödha and Vaya – Two Different Concepts”.All sense faculties keep functioning after one attains the Arahant stage; kama guna do not change since an Arahant is still in human bhava. An Arahant only loses any craving for them. Any thought generation stops at anupadisesa Nibbana.
We can look at this from another angle to make this clear.
A living being moves to higher realms by seeing the adinava (unfruitfulness/dangers) in sense pleasures at lower realms.In the realms of kama loka, beings enjoy sense pleasures through all five physical senses.
In the rupavacara brahma loka, smell, taste, and touch are not there. One gets born in such realms when one develops rupavacara jhana and regularly cultivates them in the human realm; one has lost craving for sense pleasures through the tongue, nose, and the body (but anusaya remains, so those cravings can come back in future lives). In rupavacara brahma realms one enjoys only seeing and hearing.
Even those sense pleasures experienced with seeing and hearing are of not value to those who have cultivated arupavacara jhana; But they have not given up the desire to live (bhava raga). That cannot be removed without comprehending the real nature of all 31 realms: anicca, dukkha, anatta.
Only a Buddha can figure out how to remove Bhava raga. So, a Buddha finds the way to be free from all 31 realms.
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@ Ven. Lal Sir
Thank you so much for your kind and compassionate explanations. That was very helpful.
It is amazing how you respond so well to each and every question.
May all your Noble efforts help you to attain Nibbana in this life itself.
May all sentient beings achieve Nibbana by comprehending pure Buddha Dhamma !!!
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Thanks Lal, still i do not understand why Nibbana is not of this world, but i put it aside.
Nibbana is often described in a negative way. As somethings that are not present anymore, such as asava’s or craving or avijja.
Is this correct or complete? Or must Nibbana also been seen as the summit of the presence of relative (conditioned) qualities like mindfulness, concentration, metta, mudita etc.
kind regards,
Siebe -
Siebe said:“Nibbana is often described in a negative way. As somethings that are not present anymore, such as asava’s or craving or avijja.”
I think you meant to say, “Nibbana is often described as an absence of something. As somethings that are not present anymore, such as asava’s or craving or avijja.
That is correct. Nibbana is reached via getting rid of asvas and avijja, which is equivalent to getting rid of greed (lobha), hate (dosa), and avijja (not knowing about the real nature).Siebe said:“Or must Nibbana also been seen as the summit of the presence of relative (conditioned) qualities like mindfulness, concentration, metta, mudita etc.”
Cultivating qualities like mindfulness, concentration, metta, mudita etc. are part of that process.In other words, the way to Nibbana is the Noble Eightfold Path. One learns about the true nature of the world (Dhamma including Tilakkhana) and get to to Samma Ditthi. Then one starts thinking along those lines and cultivates Samma Sankappa, speaks accordingly and cultivates Samma Vaca, etc. See:
How to Cultivate the Noble Eightfold Path starting with Anicca, Dukkha, AnattaSiebe said: “..still i do not understand why Nibbana is not of this world.”
So, from the above, it is clear that Nibbana is attained via getting rid of everything (attachment to everything) in this world, because that leads to suffering. Thus it is a tautology: Nibbana DOES MEAN completely dissociating from this world (even though that sounds harsh, that is the only way to permanently escape from suffering).But it is not easy to comprehend this fully, even for one with lower magga phala. So, there is no point in trying to make sense of that statement. One just need to go step-by-step, to the next step where ONE CAN see the relief from suffering.
The first step to experience the relief of getting rid of excess greed, excess hate, AND cultivate metta, karuna, etc AND to learn Dhamma. This process is discussed step-by-step in the “Living Dhamma” section. -
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Hi Siebe,
There is no mind (as defined in this world) in Nibbana; please see my first response above:” Nibbana is detaching from this world. So, all three entities of citta, cetasika, and rupa cease to exist. There is no mind without citta and cetasika. So, when the mind becomes free of asavas, the mind itself cease to exist.”
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Hi Lal,
You mentioned…
” Nibbana is detaching from this world. So, all three entities of citta, cetasika, and rupa cease to exist. There is no mind without citta and cetasika. So, when the mind becomes free of asavas, the mind itself cease to exist.”
From Paticca Samuppada point of view, there cannot be consciousness without namarupa and vice versa, right?
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Hi Siebe,
Until Parinibbana, an Arahant lives like any other human, but without generating abhisankhara. From the time the Arahanthood is attained to the time of Parinibbana, it is called “saupadisesa Nibbana”, where all asavas and avijja are removed, but thoughts are generated.
Thoughts cease only when an Arahant attains Parinibbana or anupadisesa Nibbana. Parinibbana means “Nibbana is complete”.
Some discussion about this at:
Nirödha and Vaya – Two Different Concepts -
Thanks Lal, it is clear to me. Somehting is not clear:
When all asava’s and avijja are removed, they are removed from mind, are they not? So, can saupadisesa Nibbana not be understood as the ultimate peaceful nature of the mind freed from all adventitious defilements? Isn’t it just ordinary mind but now freed from all adventitious defilements?
kind regards,
Siebe -
Johnny Lim said: You mentioned…
” Nibbana is detaching from this world. So, all three entities of citta, cetasika, and rupa cease to exist. There is no mind without citta and cetasika. So, when the mind becomes free of asavas, the mind itself cease to exist.”
From Paticca Samuppada point of view, there cannot be consciousness without namarupa and vice versa, right?
I should have said, “Parinibbana is detaching from this world…”
That statement does not hold for saupadisesa Nibbana. That should be clear from the above discussion.Siebe said: “..So, can saupadisesa Nibbana not be understood as the ultimate peaceful nature of the mind freed from all adventitious defilements? ..”
In this life one suffers through two types of vedana:
1. Bodily sukha/dukha vedana are due to kamma vipaka and originate in the physical body.
2. Mental somanassa/domanassa vedana or “samphassa ja vedana” are felt directly by the mind; they are mind made due to defilements.At saupadisesa Nibbana, only “samphassa ja vedana” are stopped. Even the Buddha felt the vedana of the first type (getting injured, backaches, etc). Both kinds are stopped at anupadisesa Nibbana or Parinibbana.
Vēdanā (Feelings) Arise in Two Ways
These are key points that needs to be deeply contemplated on. Just reading through is not enough. I think this thread highlighted many key questions of Nibbana.
Now it should also be clear how lobha, dosa, moha can lead to mental distress (tāpa or peleema or incessant distress) and how the mind cools down (and niramisa sukha arises) when those are gradually stopped.
It is a step-by-step process described in the “Living Dhamma” section, as I keep pointing out. This also cleanses the mind and makes it easier to understand deeper concepts. It is not possible to really grasp the concept of Nibbana just by reading about it (even though having the mechanism clarified helps).
The key phrase “ātāpī sampajānō, satimā vineyya lōke abhijjhā dōmanassam..”in the Satpatthana Sutta is all about this “tāpa” or “heat” or “fire” in the mind that needs to be cooled down:
Satipatthāna Sutta – Structure -
May the blessings of the Triple Gem be with everyone !
I just wanted to share this highest gift (of Dhamma) with everyone.
If anyone is interested in listening to Dhamma deshanas in English then please visit this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zBgcGQuEhw&list=PLKr-lYdiK6lLeAp6CM69DOo_fDS5kEhXw
And yes, please share the merits of listening to Sadhamma to all sentient beings !MAY ALL BEINGS ATTAIN NIBBANA !!!
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