[Rhys_H]

Hey guys,

Little quandary I’d like your thoughts on:

Imagine (hopefully some of you won’t have to!) your home culture is centred around Theravada, and that the reality you grow up with is seeing that Dhamma as truth, and you have faith in the Buddha’s teaching etc. Now, I know this is possibly a stereotype, but I see the general perception of such cultures is that most lay Theravadin Buddhists accept that the only way to liberation is through monastic efforts and a monastic life.

I’m wondering, wouldn’t the thought of NOT ordaining and thus not having a shot at breaking free from samsara fill the average lay Thai/Malaysian etc Buddhist with dread?

Also, regardless of your faith in taking refuge in the three gems as a way to release yourself from suffering (which for me, by the way, happens to be quite high) it must be abundantly clear to novices that the chances of attaining Nibbana in this lifetime is relatively slim. Sure, many Arahants may (or may not) be made, but how many declare themselves thus? And, think of how many deeply dedicated Theravada monks are cremated each day/year without becoming a stream enterer etc.?

What, then, are the Theravada doctrines around such things? In other words, is there Dhamma out there that gives guidance RE what one can expect within one lifetime of dedicated practice?

I understand that above there may be mistakes/ misinterpretations, but I’m still very new to the more complex side of Dhamma.

Looking forward to your thoughts,

Rhys

[Johnny_Lim]

Hi Rhys,

In the Buddha’s time, there were many lay followers who had attained Anagami. If one’s goal is to attain arahanthood in this very lifetime, according to the sutta, will take minimum 7 days. But of course there are special cases for very gifted individuals. I think 7 days is possible only if one encounters the correct Dhamma and practises without making any mistake. In another words, unceasing mindfulness 24/7. Venerable Maha-Moggallana before attaining arahantship was caught by the Buddha for nodding his head in sloth and torpor. All because he was too tired for striving too intensely. After Venerable Maha-Moggallana was admonished by the Buddha, he aroused energy to carry on his practice and in a short time, attain arahanthood.

[Johnny_Lim]

Realised I did not answer the question that you asked. During Buddha’s time, the monks were given specific meditation subjects that suited their temperament. And within a short period of time, ardent and resolute, the monks could attain arahanthood. Now that the Buddha is no longer around and there is no one else who could read our citta with high precision and advise us on a meditation topic to undertake, the safest way is to follow the materials on Lal’s website (my personal opinion). The materials on Lal’s website are presented in a very systematic, sensible way which cater for a wide range of readers. And it is by far the most convincing Dhamma materials I have come across. I have read many Dhamma books written by many Bhantes. Some of which do not match my personal experience and some are just doubtful to me. One such Bhante who said to become an Anagami or Arahant, one needs to attain the Fourth jhana (Bhante did not specify ariyan jhana). Nothing short of that standard. But this contradicts to some suttas which mention that some people could also attain Anagami and reborn into the Pure Abodes just by attaining the first jhana (ariyan one of course). I forgot the sutta reference as Suttacentral has a new format and all my favourites from Suttacentral are rendered useless already. Anyway, this particular sutta is a conversation between a Venerable Ananda and a disciple. Also, there was a very gifted disciple of Buddha whom the Buddha proclaimed him to be fastest to attain arahanthood. He only listened to a short stanza from the Buddha and almost immediately attained arahanthood, but was gored to death by a bull (disguised by a demon) on his way back home. Within such a short time, it is highly impossible for someone to attain the four jhanas. Moreover, this arahant was walking! I have never heard of anyone who can attain the fourth jhana while walking. During the 45 years of the Buddha’s teaching ministry, the Buddha travelled to many places to deliver His teachings. Is it not possible for any one disciple to listen to the Buddha’s discourse all the time. Many would have passed on way before the Buddha entered into His final years. Which means many disciples did not get to listen to some discourses which were uttered by the Buddha, and yet they could attain liberation. So, in my personal opinion, it is not mandatory to listen to all discourses from the Buddha to attain liberation. Modern technology has allowed us to have this privilege of accessing all the suttas in the internet. In a way, we are more fortunate than those disciples during Buddha’s time. I think there is no fixed curriculum to follow in Buddhism. That’s the reason why we see many sects surfacing, each having their own views and doctrines. We have to be careful who we learn Dhamma from.

[Vince]

Hi Rhys

Having been spent a good amount time around a Thai monastery on and off for years I would have to agree with you about this stereotype. Of course, I don’t believe there is any truth to it since I’ve seen laypeople with a lot sincerity who seem to grasp Dhamma concepts intuitively without being familiar with a lot of Pali terminology, suttas, Vinaya rules, etc. as well as laypeople and monks who have encyclopedic knowledge of such things and yet don’t seem to “get it”.

I was ordained as a novice for a while and I can attest that the monastic life definitely accelerated my understanding of the Buddha’s teachings. It’s my personal belief that the Buddha set up the monastic form to FORCE his disciples to see the world form a different perspective; the correct perspective or Samma Ditthi. When you undertake the 10 precepts and are forced to depend on other people to take care of you then you start to think much more about the consequences of every little action you may or may not do. As a result, the Three Characteristics (especially Anatta) start to become more clear. One of the problems with the layperson’s life is that it allows us to deceive ourselves into believing that we can be self sufficient; it “covers up” the Dhamma, so to speak. So it’s not that a layperson can’t attain a magga phala, only that it’s more difficult to do given the nature of that mode of living. Ultimately, the only thing that matters is a person’s mind and wisdom therein. Since that varies from person to person I don’t think it’s possible to make any kind of predictions as far as Path Attainment is concerned; some people may have accumulated a lot of merit and paramita from previous lives and will make smooth and consistent progress whereas others may have the good fortune to ordain but will struggle with sense desires or lack of an ability to develop insight.

I don’t think even most lay Buddhists understand what is at stake when it comes to escaping sansara; they don’t have a clear grasp of the larger picture that the Buddha was trying to explain to so they are unaware of the potential dangers that come with simply existing. They take their good birth as a given. And without being given a clear explanation of the Buddha’s Dhamma, what reason would there be for them to think otherwise? I used to be in the same boat before I came across Lal’s website; sometimes I would read anecdotes about certain Ajaans ripping into their disciples for being half-hearted or doubting urgency of their situation and I’d think “What’s the big deal? Don’t we have an infinite amount of time to wander through the rebirth process?” After reading Lal’s concise explanations on how sansara, kamma, rebirth etc. all work together and how rare a human birth during a Buddha Sasana is, it became clear to me what the “big deal” was. I think the fact that you would bring up the question of “sansaric dread” shows that you have a better understanding of Dhamma than the average lay Buddhist.

[Akvan]

Hi Rhys,

It is clear that one does not need to ordain to attain a magga pala. There are many suttas on these aspects. During the Buddha’s time there were lay people who had attained upto the anagami stage and did not have the urge to ordain. There were some who ordained after becoming a sotapanna, some of them attained arahanthship and others may not have even attained sakadagami level. There were others who ordained without being sotapanna, and from this group some attained soatapanna level while others did not.

As Vince has mentioned the monastic life can help in ones practice. But it may not be for everyone, at least not until they reach some level.

Personally i think its much more important to attain the sotapanna stage, which can be done as a lay person, rather than running and getting ordained. This is for me personally, but I dont want to dissuade anyone from ordaining as their ways may be different from mine and it may even actually help them.

[Author]

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